C.O.S 08 - You're kidding me
Join Date: Jul 2007
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...thick as Texas mud you are..
Regardless of how good a deal the A scalers are getting....it has NOTHING to do with what is on offer for the B scale. We need to insist on getting the SAME deal post 55 as the A scale is being offered. There is not some finite pot of money to work with here. The company can pay more if they want to. With the type of small minded mentality you demonstrate, it is no wonder they think that the B scale pilots don't deserve more....
ps. you say that the A scalers came here 'knowing' they would retire at 55. They also had an expectation that the company would not attack their salaries and conditions after going on bases. The reason many of them extend is because they aren't obligated to stop work when YOU think they should. If you wonder why I am so supportive of the A scalers, it's because I saw what happened to my Father when Pan Am went down. It's easy to be critical and cynical about those more senior to you.....right up to the time you are one of the seniors yourself. At United, many of the FO's didn't want the US airlines to extend the retirement age to 65.....at least until we were Captains ourselves....same logic applies here!
Regardless of how good a deal the A scalers are getting....it has NOTHING to do with what is on offer for the B scale. We need to insist on getting the SAME deal post 55 as the A scale is being offered. There is not some finite pot of money to work with here. The company can pay more if they want to. With the type of small minded mentality you demonstrate, it is no wonder they think that the B scale pilots don't deserve more....
ps. you say that the A scalers came here 'knowing' they would retire at 55. They also had an expectation that the company would not attack their salaries and conditions after going on bases. The reason many of them extend is because they aren't obligated to stop work when YOU think they should. If you wonder why I am so supportive of the A scalers, it's because I saw what happened to my Father when Pan Am went down. It's easy to be critical and cynical about those more senior to you.....right up to the time you are one of the seniors yourself. At United, many of the FO's didn't want the US airlines to extend the retirement age to 65.....at least until we were Captains ourselves....same logic applies here!
Join Date: Aug 2007
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You spineless gits just keep whining here on Pprune. That'll help! You never have nor ever will stand up for a thing and therefore deserve nothing.
Come on over to Oasis if life as a servant to the Swires and your "union" (what a joke!) is becoming too much for you.
10 year extensions to the A scales. LMAO
Come on over to Oasis if life as a servant to the Swires and your "union" (what a joke!) is becoming too much for you.
10 year extensions to the A scales. LMAO
Join Date: Mar 2007
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ACMS: you have made a lot of good points over the past few days, but do you realize that you have made 23 posts on this single issue. Myself and others are trying to make sense of all the hype and misinformation that is being tossed around here. If you could focus on one or two key elements of this as yet to be made proposal, your wisdom and experience would be appreciated and helpful.
Join Date: Aug 2007
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ACMS, stated that the A scale pilots did nothing to stop the arrival of B scale wages in 93.
Amazing, and what drivel! What do you propose we should have done to stop it. Wrestle you down and break your wrist before you signed your contract. I assume that you can read.
Amazing, and what drivel! What do you propose we should have done to stop it. Wrestle you down and break your wrist before you signed your contract. I assume that you can read.
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Actions Not Words
Guys, I think it is fairly obvious that this deal is unacceptable to most cx pilots. We are at a crossroads, if we don't at least try to get a better deal, we are as sealing our fates for ever as well as those of our colleagues to follow.
I would normally agree that CX will only take notice of people leaving, but in this case, they have offered a huge pay rise to a group that have repeatedly demonstrated willingness to continue on any terms available. This doesn't make sense. I suspect they believe they can keep the expansion on track simply by keeping the A scalers happy.
But extending the A scalers will only work if they have us on side as well. I think we actually have an opportunity here to influence the deal. I believe we should demonstrate that all B scalers are unified in opposition to tiered pay scales past 55. I am suggesting a very polite but firm letter to the company, with as many B scale signatures as possible indicating that this proposal is simply not on. The actual details could be sorted out by online editing until we get the finished product.
What do you think? We have to do something, this deal is like a thief in the night stealing our futures.
PS I would be proposing a merging of the scales somewhere in the CN increments.
I would normally agree that CX will only take notice of people leaving, but in this case, they have offered a huge pay rise to a group that have repeatedly demonstrated willingness to continue on any terms available. This doesn't make sense. I suspect they believe they can keep the expansion on track simply by keeping the A scalers happy.
But extending the A scalers will only work if they have us on side as well. I think we actually have an opportunity here to influence the deal. I believe we should demonstrate that all B scalers are unified in opposition to tiered pay scales past 55. I am suggesting a very polite but firm letter to the company, with as many B scale signatures as possible indicating that this proposal is simply not on. The actual details could be sorted out by online editing until we get the finished product.
What do you think? We have to do something, this deal is like a thief in the night stealing our futures.
PS I would be proposing a merging of the scales somewhere in the CN increments.
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CSA, one of the most sensible posts so far!
The only way we will ever get a better deal is by being united. Constant b1tching and finger pointing at each other over who gets more etc serves no-one and is exactly what the company wants. That is one of the reasons they've created so many different scales of pay.
What we need is those who dont think this is a good deal (the majority of us I would think) to say no, and keep saying no until something acceptable is offered.
Come on guys the majority of us are in the same boat, so lets start acting like it.
The only way we will ever get a better deal is by being united. Constant b1tching and finger pointing at each other over who gets more etc serves no-one and is exactly what the company wants. That is one of the reasons they've created so many different scales of pay.
What we need is those who dont think this is a good deal (the majority of us I would think) to say no, and keep saying no until something acceptable is offered.
Come on guys the majority of us are in the same boat, so lets start acting like it.
Actually I have already proposed this "unified" salary scale as an alternative the B scale community might live with in previous posts
basically all B scalers get an immediate 15%+ pay rise + HDP rise
A Scalers get the 1.8% HDP rise
At 55 they come back to the relevant B scale + all the COS benefits. ( a lot better than they all accept for extension now )
This means we meet in the middle.
A win win
basically all B scalers get an immediate 15%+ pay rise + HDP rise
A Scalers get the 1.8% HDP rise
At 55 they come back to the relevant B scale + all the COS benefits. ( a lot better than they all accept for extension now )
This means we meet in the middle.
A win win
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Well the fine details can be worked out, I would prefer to doctor the B scales so they merge with A scales at some point. This would mean that the best top scales would be available to all at some point in their career.
What I want to do first, is to check for support for the concept. Is there enough feeling amonst the B scale pilots to get 80 or 90% of them to sign a letter to the company, not a threat, not demanding, not insulting, simply saying we are unitied and we want a light at the end of the tunnel, ie a merge point in the pay scales. I can't see a down side to everyone signing such a letter, but it would have to be all of us (or close to). If we can't get a high percentage to put a signature to a letter, there is no chance of doing anything and we should just capitulate.
What I want to do first, is to check for support for the concept. Is there enough feeling amonst the B scale pilots to get 80 or 90% of them to sign a letter to the company, not a threat, not demanding, not insulting, simply saying we are unitied and we want a light at the end of the tunnel, ie a merge point in the pay scales. I can't see a down side to everyone signing such a letter, but it would have to be all of us (or close to). If we can't get a high percentage to put a signature to a letter, there is no chance of doing anything and we should just capitulate.
Join Date: May 2001
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Let's get back to a pay negotiation
Can I suggest we all band together for a 3 tier strategy:
1. Write to [email protected] and politely tell them you do not support this proposal.
2. Send a circular email to your collegues, telling them you do not support the proposal.
3. If it goes to the vote, then vote NO.
We need to get this back to being a pay negotiation.
1. Write to [email protected] and politely tell them you do not support this proposal.
2. Send a circular email to your collegues, telling them you do not support the proposal.
3. If it goes to the vote, then vote NO.
We need to get this back to being a pay negotiation.
ACMS
Mate like you I am a “B” scaler but only an FO. I am far from pleased at what has been offered but your shots at “A” scalers will result in a friendly fire incident. While I concede some “A” scalers will jump at this offer, we need to keep everyone onside. United we stand, divided we fall.
Personally I feel the AOA should reject the offer but still put it to a vote. That way it sends a clear message to both the company and the AOA GC that they need to do better, substantially better, especially when it comes back with a resounding “NO” vote.
Regarding retirement age 65. After reviewing contract law from my uni days and getting off the phone to a legal friend of mine that I went to school with we are both of the opinion that if the HK government does introduce age discrimination laws, it won’t make our contracts for retirement age 55 null and void. We all signed our contracts of our own free will so they stand, period. All it does is allow those that want to, to approach the company to up their retirement age to 65 i.e. COS08. I think it is the job of all “B” scalers to try and convince those senior “A” scale colleges that it is in all our interest to reject this offer until the company comes back with a substantially improved one.
The more I think about this the more I am sure the company has deliberately set the cat amongst the pigeons so as to cause division. Gentlemen and women we must refrain from going down this path for if we do it will lead us nowhere.
Mate like you I am a “B” scaler but only an FO. I am far from pleased at what has been offered but your shots at “A” scalers will result in a friendly fire incident. While I concede some “A” scalers will jump at this offer, we need to keep everyone onside. United we stand, divided we fall.
Personally I feel the AOA should reject the offer but still put it to a vote. That way it sends a clear message to both the company and the AOA GC that they need to do better, substantially better, especially when it comes back with a resounding “NO” vote.
Regarding retirement age 65. After reviewing contract law from my uni days and getting off the phone to a legal friend of mine that I went to school with we are both of the opinion that if the HK government does introduce age discrimination laws, it won’t make our contracts for retirement age 55 null and void. We all signed our contracts of our own free will so they stand, period. All it does is allow those that want to, to approach the company to up their retirement age to 65 i.e. COS08. I think it is the job of all “B” scalers to try and convince those senior “A” scale colleges that it is in all our interest to reject this offer until the company comes back with a substantially improved one.
The more I think about this the more I am sure the company has deliberately set the cat amongst the pigeons so as to cause division. Gentlemen and women we must refrain from going down this path for if we do it will lead us nowhere.
Join Date: May 2003
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S/O's
I see no-one has mentoned the hit that the S/O's will get. If the age 65 comes in then some of them will do 7 to 9 yrs as S/O's. With a wife and kids thrown in and the mortgage (assuming you don't rent for 10 years) take off tax (40%) and schooling and you have about 15K a month left in your paypacket to cover everything else. Let me repeat that 15K. In the past you held off buying or did it as you approached upgrade to keep your head above the water. Now you'll have to survive for a fair while on your 15k or hold off buying for a large number of years until the upgrade comes around.
Plenty will go to the wall as S/O's and (here's the kicker) eventually leave with a P2X rating that is useless for re-employment.
Can't believe the AOA would so happily let it's newest members suffer so badly. And they want S/O's to sign up?
Plenty will go to the wall as S/O's and (here's the kicker) eventually leave with a P2X rating that is useless for re-employment.
Can't believe the AOA would so happily let it's newest members suffer so badly. And they want S/O's to sign up?
stillalbatross
As a “B” scaler I do remember what it was like trying to survive on a SO’s salary. It wasn’t that long ago for me. I don’t think any of us want to see you whither on the vine either. If you are a AOA member and it comes to a vote you can, like I’m guessing most, vote no. If you aren’t in the AOA then I suggest this is a very good reason for you to join. United we stand, divided we fall. Lets work for the benefit of everyone.
As a “B” scaler I do remember what it was like trying to survive on a SO’s salary. It wasn’t that long ago for me. I don’t think any of us want to see you whither on the vine either. If you are a AOA member and it comes to a vote you can, like I’m guessing most, vote no. If you aren’t in the AOA then I suggest this is a very good reason for you to join. United we stand, divided we fall. Lets work for the benefit of everyone.
Yes...I apologise to all the A scalers if I offended you.
but............fair suck of the sav boys, you would reap a tremendous benefit while we get nothing more than tiny scraps.
I will actually lose 5% at 55, gee I look forward to it.
FACTS: The company need all of us
We must not accept this first offer.
but............fair suck of the sav boys, you would reap a tremendous benefit while we get nothing more than tiny scraps.
I will actually lose 5% at 55, gee I look forward to it.
FACTS: The company need all of us
We must not accept this first offer.
Join Date: Jan 2006
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CSA: are you for real????
"I am suggesting a very polite but firm letter to the company, with as many B scale signatures as possible indicating that this proposal is simply not on."
And instantly sign-up for down categorisation - DONT PASS GO, forget f
ing bypass pay, go straight to Cat D for the rest of your short miserable time in CX!!!!
How long have you been subject to Swires management practices???
And instantly sign-up for down categorisation - DONT PASS GO, forget f
ing bypass pay, go straight to Cat D for the rest of your short miserable time in CX!!!!How long have you been subject to Swires management practices???