C.O.S 08 - You're kidding me
Cityflyer:
I very nearly fell on the floor I was laughing sooo hard. Mate cut the crap. You will sell your granny to stay here on B scales to fly the "rubber dog ****" outta Hong Kong, and you know it.
And ACMS, going past 55? You have to be joking. I have no intention of doing that nor do many of my collegues. I know some will, but most won't. You can have it.
55+
ACMS..There's an awful lot of A-scale guys who joined young and have had it with all the B/S...i think most of us don't actually need to stay.You may be pleasantly surprised.
Sure.............and I suppose you have a nice cheap piece of land I can buy from you too.
If I had a dollar for every 54+ y.o. telling me he "wasn't going to work for that money past 55" I'd be a zillionair and wouldn't need a payrise in the first place.
Not only that they suddenly move into training as well
I'm sorry but I just don't believe you. Nice try though.
If I had a dollar for every 54+ y.o. telling me he "wasn't going to work for that money past 55" I'd be a zillionair and wouldn't need a payrise in the first place.
Not only that they suddenly move into training as well
I'm sorry but I just don't believe you. Nice try though.
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ACMS. Have a goooooood look at yourself in the mirror. Notice a rather 'small' man, the bitter and twisted look fixed hard upon your face..? Figure out who the real master of your misery is...and stop trying to bring this profession down any further. Pathetic....yes, you.
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I've Had it
Okay I've officially had it with ACMS . He is beyond redemption I just hope that I never have to fly with him I cannot imagine the hostility that he must bring to the flight deck.
So I will no longer respond to his posts period.
So I will no longer respond to his posts period.
Reply to ACMS regarding Stock Options
ACMS wrote:
Oh and guys when the A scalers b
and moan about the pay cut they were forced into, ask them how much the Share Options they were given at $7.47 per share are worth now. I seem to recall that they only had to double in value to negate the pay cut?
Maybe a wise A scaler can enlighten us all?
An A scaler yes, wise, probably not, but as you asked the question I can supply you with the answer for my particular circumstances.
Since the inception of the pay cuts on 01.07.99, my personal salary has dropped by a total of HK$1.025m. I sold my shares at close to HK$16. Even though the value of the shares more than doubled, the gain totalled HK$950k. Subtracting the two has resulted in a deficit of almost HK$75k. When I now add the tax that I paid on the gain, the deficit stands at HK$196k. So there is no basis to the story that the options had to double to cover the pain of our cuts.
Had I been wise and sold today at HK$20.75, after paying tax, I would still be ahead by HK$300k. However, as my current monthly salary lags my original salary by HK$15k, in 20 months that HK$300k would not compensate for the loss of income that I joined on. I have many more months than 20 to serve.
Why have I posted?
I know ACMS has apologised for attacking the A scale officers, however enough is enough. CX must be loving this, watching us destroy the very fabric of who we are.
A very wise former VP once told me that we should leave the organisation in better shape than when we joined. Given the legacy of our employer, this is virtually impossible to achieve. COS08 does little for those following in our footsteps, so I will vote appropriately, even though it may appear that my generation has most to gain.
Sir, the enemy is without, not within. Ensure you target your frustration correctly....
Oh and guys when the A scalers b
and moan about the pay cut they were forced into, ask them how much the Share Options they were given at $7.47 per share are worth now. I seem to recall that they only had to double in value to negate the pay cut?Maybe a wise A scaler can enlighten us all?
An A scaler yes, wise, probably not, but as you asked the question I can supply you with the answer for my particular circumstances.
Since the inception of the pay cuts on 01.07.99, my personal salary has dropped by a total of HK$1.025m. I sold my shares at close to HK$16. Even though the value of the shares more than doubled, the gain totalled HK$950k. Subtracting the two has resulted in a deficit of almost HK$75k. When I now add the tax that I paid on the gain, the deficit stands at HK$196k. So there is no basis to the story that the options had to double to cover the pain of our cuts.
Had I been wise and sold today at HK$20.75, after paying tax, I would still be ahead by HK$300k. However, as my current monthly salary lags my original salary by HK$15k, in 20 months that HK$300k would not compensate for the loss of income that I joined on. I have many more months than 20 to serve.
Why have I posted?
I know ACMS has apologised for attacking the A scale officers, however enough is enough. CX must be loving this, watching us destroy the very fabric of who we are.
A very wise former VP once told me that we should leave the organisation in better shape than when we joined. Given the legacy of our employer, this is virtually impossible to achieve. COS08 does little for those following in our footsteps, so I will vote appropriately, even though it may appear that my generation has most to gain.
Sir, the enemy is without, not within. Ensure you target your frustration correctly....
Thanks for giving us the truth about your share options.
Question:
You paid tax on your share options, you would have also paid tax on the extra pay as well ( if there was no pay cut )
Therefore you cannot subtract the tax you paid on the gain to compare, can you?
Just tell us the difference in incomes, they are both taxable at around 16%
It hasn't totally covered your paycut, but it came pretty close didn't it?
So when you guys bandy around that you took a 22% paycut, we know what you really mean.
Thanks
Question:
You paid tax on your share options, you would have also paid tax on the extra pay as well ( if there was no pay cut )
Therefore you cannot subtract the tax you paid on the gain to compare, can you?
Just tell us the difference in incomes, they are both taxable at around 16%
It hasn't totally covered your paycut, but it came pretty close didn't it?
So when you guys bandy around that you took a 22% paycut, we know what you really mean.
Thanks
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Freightdog188
Nice post Freightdog188 (I like your handle too, are we cousins?). So, in summary (and adding a few of my own grievances), in exchange for Age 65, considerable lengthening of time-to-command for FOs/SOs and the death of FACA:
1) ONE SINGLE PAYSCALE NOW, ranging from CURRENT YEAR ONE PAX for all new DEFO hires to CURRENT A SCALE at the top of the range. One payscale also means 13th month for based guys, and a degree of currency protection.
2) Said new single payscale should result in approximately a 15% payrise at the bottom of the new scale compared to the equivalent rank/seniority on the present B-scale, tapering off to a more modest increase at the top of the new unified scale with respect to current A-scale.
3) Bypass pay for ALL FOs/SOs, not just HKG based ones, when captains extend past age 55, in order of seniority and with clear rules governing assessment times and eligibility.
4) Clarity as to who will be responsible for the new taxes that will result in CX going onshore on bases.
The only disparity between CX pilots would then be down to rank and seniority (as it should be) and the fact that HKG based guys get housing and schooling (fair enough I say).
I know this may sound like a lot, but in actual fact the main expenses for the company are getting the freight guys onto the same payscale as everybody else, which I believe they will have to eventually do anyway if they want everyone to crew the freighter, and of course the general payrise, which MARKET FORCES would warrant! Right now quite frankly the company can most definitely afford this. I suspect this is the one chance we have at getting ourselves all on the same scale.
I personally would even be willing to accept a smaller general rise provided we all ended up on the same scale, which I regard as the biggest prize: let's face it, without it we are divided and the company can easily play us against each other to obtain what it wants. Learn from the past and apply it to the future, or we are condemned to repeat the same errors over and over again.
fdd
1) ONE SINGLE PAYSCALE NOW, ranging from CURRENT YEAR ONE PAX for all new DEFO hires to CURRENT A SCALE at the top of the range. One payscale also means 13th month for based guys, and a degree of currency protection.
2) Said new single payscale should result in approximately a 15% payrise at the bottom of the new scale compared to the equivalent rank/seniority on the present B-scale, tapering off to a more modest increase at the top of the new unified scale with respect to current A-scale.
3) Bypass pay for ALL FOs/SOs, not just HKG based ones, when captains extend past age 55, in order of seniority and with clear rules governing assessment times and eligibility.
4) Clarity as to who will be responsible for the new taxes that will result in CX going onshore on bases.
The only disparity between CX pilots would then be down to rank and seniority (as it should be) and the fact that HKG based guys get housing and schooling (fair enough I say).
I know this may sound like a lot, but in actual fact the main expenses for the company are getting the freight guys onto the same payscale as everybody else, which I believe they will have to eventually do anyway if they want everyone to crew the freighter, and of course the general payrise, which MARKET FORCES would warrant! Right now quite frankly the company can most definitely afford this. I suspect this is the one chance we have at getting ourselves all on the same scale.
I personally would even be willing to accept a smaller general rise provided we all ended up on the same scale, which I regard as the biggest prize: let's face it, without it we are divided and the company can easily play us against each other to obtain what it wants. Learn from the past and apply it to the future, or we are condemned to repeat the same errors over and over again.
fdd
ACMS,
Since you are so keen on dissecting everyone else's pay please tell us exactly how much more you have earned than your joining payscale (at all ranks) would have given you.
I think you'll find you are well ahead of A-scalers who do the same calculation.
Since you are so keen on dissecting everyone else's pay please tell us exactly how much more you have earned than your joining payscale (at all ranks) would have given you.
I think you'll find you are well ahead of A-scalers who do the same calculation.
what do you mean?
I joined 14 odd years ago, got pay rises only through promotion and annual increments and here I am.
huh? Unlike you I haven' t claimed a 28% pay cut without giving all the facts.
The supposed A scale pay cut wasn't as bad as the A scalers led us to believe.
N22 would actually be better off if he hadn't sold his funds, then he tried to blame Tax on the shares. ( as if his original salary wouldn't have been taxed ) to make the result look worse.
I joined 14 odd years ago, got pay rises only through promotion and annual increments and here I am.
huh? Unlike you I haven' t claimed a 28% pay cut without giving all the facts.
The supposed A scale pay cut wasn't as bad as the A scalers led us to believe.
N22 would actually be better off if he hadn't sold his funds, then he tried to blame Tax on the shares. ( as if his original salary wouldn't have been taxed ) to make the result look worse.
Last edited by ACMS; 13th Aug 2007 at 11:25.
What do YOU mean?
Last post, I promise.
ACMS, you asked for a wise A scale officer to share his experience, and when he does, you then attempt to turn his honest reply to your advantage. The figures I gave were how they personally affected me, and as you can see without taking tax into the equation the deficit stands today at $HK75k. Hindsight is wonderful and I would have loved to have held onto those shares but I did not. I blame no one but myself and certainly did not try to hide behind taxation. The figures were there in my original post.
In a direct reply to me you say, quote
"So when you guys bandy around that you took a 22% pay cut, we know what you really mean."
In a reply to BusyB you quote
"Unlike you I haven’t claimed a 28% pay cut without giving all the facts."
Sir, you need to get your facts correct.
My cut, as with all HKG officers was 9.321% spread over 3 years. So my deficit, currently running at HK$75k refers to someone who suffered the least pay cut. Even today, the value of the stock option gain can in no way recompense the based offers who suffer substantially greater cuts than I.
Please do not twist the truth to suit your personal agenda.
Speaking of facts, you have just quoted
"I joined 14 odd years ago, got pay rises only through promotion and annual increments and here I am."(sic)
I have your conditions of service here in front of me. As our salaries were cut, yours rose effective 01.07.99 and then again by a further 4% on 01.07.00 and a further 3% on 01.07.01. Someone other there will be able to refresh your memory on scale adjustments between the date you joined and 01.07.99. I think you will find there were some!
The enemy is not within..... We are on the same side, but you do the cause significant harm with your vitriol.
ACMS, you asked for a wise A scale officer to share his experience, and when he does, you then attempt to turn his honest reply to your advantage. The figures I gave were how they personally affected me, and as you can see without taking tax into the equation the deficit stands today at $HK75k. Hindsight is wonderful and I would have loved to have held onto those shares but I did not. I blame no one but myself and certainly did not try to hide behind taxation. The figures were there in my original post.
In a direct reply to me you say, quote
"So when you guys bandy around that you took a 22% pay cut, we know what you really mean."
In a reply to BusyB you quote
"Unlike you I haven’t claimed a 28% pay cut without giving all the facts."
Sir, you need to get your facts correct.
My cut, as with all HKG officers was 9.321% spread over 3 years. So my deficit, currently running at HK$75k refers to someone who suffered the least pay cut. Even today, the value of the stock option gain can in no way recompense the based offers who suffer substantially greater cuts than I.
Please do not twist the truth to suit your personal agenda.
Speaking of facts, you have just quoted
"I joined 14 odd years ago, got pay rises only through promotion and annual increments and here I am."(sic)
I have your conditions of service here in front of me. As our salaries were cut, yours rose effective 01.07.99 and then again by a further 4% on 01.07.00 and a further 3% on 01.07.01. Someone other there will be able to refresh your memory on scale adjustments between the date you joined and 01.07.99. I think you will find there were some!
The enemy is not within..... We are on the same side, but you do the cause significant harm with your vitriol.
N22 a couple of pages back Blunderbus wrote that a friend ( a scale ) took a 28% pay cut. That's were I got that from when replying to BusyB.
Mate you can't put Tax into it to make it look worse. THEY ARE BOTH INCOME AND ARE SUBJECT TO THE SAME PAYE TAX.
I was pointing out your mistake.
I am not twisting it.............saying I took a 28% pay cut IS
Mate you can't put Tax into it to make it look worse. THEY ARE BOTH INCOME AND ARE SUBJECT TO THE SAME PAYE TAX.
I was pointing out your mistake.
I am not twisting it.............saying I took a 28% pay cut IS
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Blunderbus & CSA
Blunderbus
"The infantile level of spelling and grammar diplayed here also shows many of you up as being a bit thick.I digress."
Before berating others about how "thick" they might be - run a spell checker over your own posts and find out how to spell "privilege." There's no "d"... (I'll ignore the misspelling of "displayed" in your quote above and the failure to include a space after the full-stop - they're typo's I'm sure)
CSA
Regarding your question about what I intend to do about this proposal, instead of following your suggestion and placing my head on the company chopping block by signing an open letter to them, I intend to vote No.
"The infantile level of spelling and grammar diplayed here also shows many of you up as being a bit thick.I digress."
Before berating others about how "thick" they might be - run a spell checker over your own posts and find out how to spell "privilege." There's no "d"... (I'll ignore the misspelling of "displayed" in your quote above and the failure to include a space after the full-stop - they're typo's I'm sure)
CSA
Regarding your question about what I intend to do about this proposal, instead of following your suggestion and placing my head on the company chopping block by signing an open letter to them, I intend to vote No.
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Please focus guys...
One Airline -- One Payscale!!!
While we're at it... Why can't we push for the ability to hitch a ride on our freighters? FedEx takes riders, so any blame pointed at Gen Decs is a load of bull!
One Airline -- One Payscale!!!
While we're at it... Why can't we push for the ability to hitch a ride on our freighters? FedEx takes riders, so any blame pointed at Gen Decs is a load of bull!