how Many are leaving ??
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Now look, it really is in your own interests to fly the freighter, it has nothing to do with the shortage of crews or the fact that we will have to park a nice shiny 744F come July if you don't. I mean we have already cancelled some new routes...................................
Your memory cannot be that long, surely you have forgotten the ASL debacle, the hatred, fighting on the bus, spitting at the scab labour and all that??et alone how it affected your career......................
So, you will be phoned individually and intimidated into flying the freighter or suffer the consequences......................................
It really is interesting flying, I mean why do HKF - SFO - HKG when you can go to Anchorage and back ?? we even have some nice flights leavng HKG at 11pm and getting back at 7 or 9am to Shanghai for you HKG based guys, I mean what could be more interesting than that ???
Equal terms and conditions for all Pilots perhaps ??? even a meagre pay rise ??? well come on chaps, play our game !!!
Your memory cannot be that long, surely you have forgotten the ASL debacle, the hatred, fighting on the bus, spitting at the scab labour and all that??et alone how it affected your career......................
So, you will be phoned individually and intimidated into flying the freighter or suffer the consequences......................................
It really is interesting flying, I mean why do HKF - SFO - HKG when you can go to Anchorage and back ?? we even have some nice flights leavng HKG at 11pm and getting back at 7 or 9am to Shanghai for you HKG based guys, I mean what could be more interesting than that ???
Equal terms and conditions for all Pilots perhaps ??? even a meagre pay rise ??? well come on chaps, play our game !!!
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errr this is your Captain....ooops
Well spotted Ndekepilot !
Looks like ACMS could follow his own advice a little more ! From another thread.......
Got to go and read the new FCTM and new FCOM 3, later !
FG
NdekePilot wrote: "Uh, ACMS, actually it's not.
Inflight reduction of fuel is in VOL 2 PT 2 under COMPANY POLICY.
NP
"
Inflight reduction of fuel is in VOL 2 PT 2 under COMPANY POLICY.
NP
"
Looks like ACMS could follow his own advice a little more ! From another thread.......
ACMS wrote: "you have never found anything written in SOP's??????????? wow..... Well you could try reading VOL 2 Pt 2. Or you could pickup the QRH,"
FG
...................
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FO??? Sorry, I've only been flying for twenty years, I'm certainly not worthy of that lofty title yet!!
Please excuse me while I beetle off and make the bunks. And would Sir like a milk or dark chocolate on his pillow?
NP
Please excuse me while I beetle off and make the bunks. And would Sir like a milk or dark chocolate on his pillow?
NP
Boy I really do have to spell everything out to you don't I 
I meant: most, if not all FO's I have the pleasure of flying with on the 777 are either preparing for or have just completed some form of upgrade training ( SO to JFO, JFO to FO and hardest of all FO to Capt ) and as such are EXTREMELY knowledgeable on all the books.
So if I tongue in cheek say ( and remember we were talking about the VOL2 Pt 2 ) "that's what F/O's are for" then I mean that if I want to get some info from the books then the FO is the person to ask. Quite simple really, as a Captain I will use all resources available to me to complete the flight safely from A to B.
It may have been meant tongue in cheek, but it's very true.
It wasn't meant as a slight on FO's, quite the opposite actually, and when you get old and baggy like me you will come to understand how much you really do rely on your FO.
Clear now?
Finished the name calling and mud slinging?
Life is too shaort fellas, remember who the real enemy is ( i'll give you a hint, he's on the exec floor )
I meant: most, if not all FO's I have the pleasure of flying with on the 777 are either preparing for or have just completed some form of upgrade training ( SO to JFO, JFO to FO and hardest of all FO to Capt ) and as such are EXTREMELY knowledgeable on all the books.
So if I tongue in cheek say ( and remember we were talking about the VOL2 Pt 2 ) "that's what F/O's are for" then I mean that if I want to get some info from the books then the FO is the person to ask. Quite simple really, as a Captain I will use all resources available to me to complete the flight safely from A to B.
It may have been meant tongue in cheek, but it's very true.
It wasn't meant as a slight on FO's, quite the opposite actually, and when you get old and baggy like me you will come to understand how much you really do rely on your FO.
Clear now?
Finished the name calling and mud slinging?
Life is too shaort fellas, remember who the real enemy is ( i'll give you a hint, he's on the exec floor )
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ACMS
Nice attempt at a back pedal mate but it doesn't wash with me.
Heres a tip. THINK before you type. Remember the C-L-E-A-R model that you were taught in all those CRM classes? Maybe use this to evaluate your thoughts before treading on your shlong again.
Love
The Bunk maker.
Heres a tip. THINK before you type. Remember the C-L-E-A-R model that you were taught in all those CRM classes? Maybe use this to evaluate your thoughts before treading on your shlong again.
Love
The Bunk maker.
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Out of Seniority????
Originally Posted by Five Green
stop giving commands out of seniority , especially to people 7 years junior to Cat'B and D'd FOs
Let us consider the "giving" or "getting" of a command the decision by Cathay management to take the initial step in the process: the submission to the command selection panel of the candidate's name. This happens AUTOMATICALLY IN SENIORITY ORDER in the case of PASSENGER COMMANDS, but for FREIGHTER COMMANDS, ONLY A PILOT WHO HAS EXPRESSED A DESIRE TO HAVE HIS NAME SUBMITTED TO THE COMMAND SELECTION PANEL will be considered for freighter command. THESE SUBMISSIONS WILL BE MADE IN SENIORITY ORDER FROM THOSE WHO HAVE EXPRESSED A DESIRE FOR A FREIGHTER COMMAND.
To my knowledge, NO PILOT WHO HAS EXPRESSED A DESIRE FOR A FREIGHTER COMMAND HAS EVER [bold]NOT[/bold] BEEN CONSIDERED BY THE PANEL IN SENIORITY ORDER. The terms "Early Command" and "out of seniority" are bulls**t phrases used by wankers at Cathay who want to play one group against another, make themselves feel more important, or make someone feel "lucky" because he got something "earlier" than he should have.
To explain for you other morons (there are a LOT of you): for OUR intents and purposes (not taking into account the subjective nature of Cathay commands, CAT B/C/D, etc., because those are not the issues here), someone "getting" a freighter command because NO ONE SENIOR TO HIM HAS EXPRESSED A DESIRE FOR IT is NOT getting an "early" command, nor is he getting a command out of seniority. THAT IS HOW SENIORITY WORKS! IF YOU DON'T WANT IT, IT GOES TO SOMEONE JUNIOR TO YOU WHO DOES WANT IT.
Grow up and stop using these divisive terms. Nobody at UPS or FedEx goes around whining about how Jose got an "early" command on the 727. You get what you want unless someone senior to you wants it. THAT IS SENIORITY.
JJ
JJ,
"Obviously, you are either from England/Australia/NZ or you have been highly influenced by people from those places."
Don't talk about people from those places unless you know them ALL.
"Obviously, you are either from England/Australia/NZ or you have been highly influenced by people from those places."
Don't talk about people from those places unless you know them ALL.
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Jeez Jose,
You're a bit highly strung, aren't you? I bet the guys can't wait to fly with you!
As for your comments about Australians, Kiwis et al, why don't you get over yourself you xenophobic halfwit?
You're a bit highly strung, aren't you? I bet the guys can't wait to fly with you!
As for your comments about Australians, Kiwis et al, why don't you get over yourself you xenophobic halfwit?
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Here we go !!
JJ : You are right about one thing, we as pilots need to stick together and not get set on each other by mngmt. So how do we do that ?
In a perfect world (of highly moralistic people) we as a pilot group would not accept getting command ahead of other pilots who are SENIOR to us, in order to satisfy our own personal needs. Then as a result the company could not reduce a segment of the pilot group's pay and conditions. No pilots would join on the reduced conditions and then the company would cancel the whole idea. "In a perfect world" Careful now JJ this is a hypothetical discussion.
Would you not agree that we as pilot group would be better off if there was no segregation of freighter and pax ? Would you not agree that one pay scale for all pilots is better (assuming it is the higher pax pay) ? Would you not agree that you SHOULD get a crack a command in SENIORITY and that should include all commands ? Do you not agree that if the freighter command was intigrated then we as pilots would get command on passanger in SENIORITY sooner than we do now ?
The current situation is a farce. I am all about fairness and to me the current situation is not handled fairly. Now before you say "Life is not fair, grow up", let me remind you that life was a lot less fair in days gone by. So why is it more "fair" now ? In most part because strong, intelligent people got together and forced change. We as a pilot group should be intelligent enough to realise we are being had. Work more for less pay, but you can be a "commander". So pilots do.
Your comments are extremely simplistic. You imply that everyone gets a chance to bid for early command. Well, they do not. Only pilots that can hold residency in the countries that have the openings can apply for early command. Thereby denying more SENIOR pilots the positions. If the freighter and pax were not seperate you would get a command in Hong Kong, then pilots with residency would take the bases. Either that or they would crew from Hong Kong (we are a Hong Kong airline).
In addition, you must consider that the current set up allows them to by-pass candidates who want early command, a lot easier. "How so ?" you say. If the current rate of Cat Bing for those applying for early command were applied to all commands it would really show up. When someone gets Catb'd for early command they usually content themselves with the fact that they have X years to pax command and that the pay is no different etc. If this was not the case then the complaints would be louder and eventually we would see something change, as commercially that kind of failure in the training department would be unsustainable. Then as a result the commands get offered to progessively less SENIOR pilots.
You infer that every pilot who wants an early command on the freighter gets one. Not true. An example is the classic freighter. I know several pilots who wanted to go for it but were denied and yet everyone accepts that nobody wants those commands and therefore the rapid command hiring is ok !! The current system of categorising FOs is not unlike the system mngmt use to upgrade Cabin crew. In a nut shell it is upgrade by selection. It is used as a discipline tool. They use reasons to hold back one candidate that do not hold back another. There is no transparency to it and therefore it is open too abuse by management or trainers with a particular ax to grind. It is not done in true SENIORITY. If you don't believe me look up those above you in seniority and ask them why they have not taken a command on the freighter (out of SENIORITY).
Having said all that, I do not want to see the pilot group divided. I would like to see more join the AOA . The problem is not with the pilots who do what is available to them under the system. It is with the system.
If you are one of the lucky ones who has taken an early freighter command then well done on the hard work, as it is still not given away. However please reflect on the fact that you fit the mold and were able to progress, while others more SENIOR to you did not.
This comes back too what started my comments. The co. wants us to fly freighters. Why? They are getting short because people are leaving. Maybe not many in the grand scheme of things, but certainly the highest percentages on a month to month total than ever before in our history! You have pax captains flying freighter rosters, and not just one or two trips. You will soon have pax FOs filling the empty spots on the freighter roster. Our CP is not talking to people because he is concerned for the well being of those under his care. He is trying to cover the roster. Why is he having this problem ? The problem is entirely of their own making. Unfortunately, as with other problems, rather than address the actual problem and fix it, they will get out the big stick and force us to solve their problem. As I said before if the freighter group was re-absorbed on the same COS and FTLs all problems would be solved. We would stop loosing FOs and Captains and we would all fly the freighter. Until then I will reserve my contractual right to not fly the freighter.
By the way, where I am from has nothing to do with my understanding of seniority. The seniority concept is applied slightly differently in every contract I have ever read. I am sure that I have read more contracts than you have. It comes down to some basic principles most good for pilots but some major points are bad as well. That however, is a whole other thread !
In a perfect world (of highly moralistic people) we as a pilot group would not accept getting command ahead of other pilots who are SENIOR to us, in order to satisfy our own personal needs. Then as a result the company could not reduce a segment of the pilot group's pay and conditions. No pilots would join on the reduced conditions and then the company would cancel the whole idea. "In a perfect world" Careful now JJ this is a hypothetical discussion.
Would you not agree that we as pilot group would be better off if there was no segregation of freighter and pax ? Would you not agree that one pay scale for all pilots is better (assuming it is the higher pax pay) ? Would you not agree that you SHOULD get a crack a command in SENIORITY and that should include all commands ? Do you not agree that if the freighter command was intigrated then we as pilots would get command on passanger in SENIORITY sooner than we do now ?
The current situation is a farce. I am all about fairness and to me the current situation is not handled fairly. Now before you say "Life is not fair, grow up", let me remind you that life was a lot less fair in days gone by. So why is it more "fair" now ? In most part because strong, intelligent people got together and forced change. We as a pilot group should be intelligent enough to realise we are being had. Work more for less pay, but you can be a "commander". So pilots do.
Your comments are extremely simplistic. You imply that everyone gets a chance to bid for early command. Well, they do not. Only pilots that can hold residency in the countries that have the openings can apply for early command. Thereby denying more SENIOR pilots the positions. If the freighter and pax were not seperate you would get a command in Hong Kong, then pilots with residency would take the bases. Either that or they would crew from Hong Kong (we are a Hong Kong airline).
In addition, you must consider that the current set up allows them to by-pass candidates who want early command, a lot easier. "How so ?" you say. If the current rate of Cat Bing for those applying for early command were applied to all commands it would really show up. When someone gets Catb'd for early command they usually content themselves with the fact that they have X years to pax command and that the pay is no different etc. If this was not the case then the complaints would be louder and eventually we would see something change, as commercially that kind of failure in the training department would be unsustainable. Then as a result the commands get offered to progessively less SENIOR pilots.
You infer that every pilot who wants an early command on the freighter gets one. Not true. An example is the classic freighter. I know several pilots who wanted to go for it but were denied and yet everyone accepts that nobody wants those commands and therefore the rapid command hiring is ok !! The current system of categorising FOs is not unlike the system mngmt use to upgrade Cabin crew. In a nut shell it is upgrade by selection. It is used as a discipline tool. They use reasons to hold back one candidate that do not hold back another. There is no transparency to it and therefore it is open too abuse by management or trainers with a particular ax to grind. It is not done in true SENIORITY. If you don't believe me look up those above you in seniority and ask them why they have not taken a command on the freighter (out of SENIORITY).
Having said all that, I do not want to see the pilot group divided. I would like to see more join the AOA . The problem is not with the pilots who do what is available to them under the system. It is with the system.
If you are one of the lucky ones who has taken an early freighter command then well done on the hard work, as it is still not given away. However please reflect on the fact that you fit the mold and were able to progress, while others more SENIOR to you did not.
This comes back too what started my comments. The co. wants us to fly freighters. Why? They are getting short because people are leaving. Maybe not many in the grand scheme of things, but certainly the highest percentages on a month to month total than ever before in our history! You have pax captains flying freighter rosters, and not just one or two trips. You will soon have pax FOs filling the empty spots on the freighter roster. Our CP is not talking to people because he is concerned for the well being of those under his care. He is trying to cover the roster. Why is he having this problem ? The problem is entirely of their own making. Unfortunately, as with other problems, rather than address the actual problem and fix it, they will get out the big stick and force us to solve their problem. As I said before if the freighter group was re-absorbed on the same COS and FTLs all problems would be solved. We would stop loosing FOs and Captains and we would all fly the freighter. Until then I will reserve my contractual right to not fly the freighter.
By the way, where I am from has nothing to do with my understanding of seniority. The seniority concept is applied slightly differently in every contract I have ever read. I am sure that I have read more contracts than you have. It comes down to some basic principles most good for pilots but some major points are bad as well. That however, is a whole other thread !
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OK chaps, so the way to bail out is to get on a base and cash in your provident fund. Quit while outside of HK so the IRD can't nail you, find another job and bolt for the door...
There are a great deal of great things out there.
What I'd like to hear about are some of the stories of how CX management have employed PI's to check/spy on people....
When the training bonds start... well what would that be an indication of ?????
There are a great deal of great things out there.
What I'd like to hear about are some of the stories of how CX management have employed PI's to check/spy on people....
When the training bonds start... well what would that be an indication of ?????
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There are many things wrong with Cathay as with all Airlines lately, so keep up the negatives on Prune guys. It really is the only way we can change things for the better.
bus
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Whats out there !
Are there any good contracts out there for B744 and B777 Capt.?
Is it true Korean,Emirates and Etihad got big payrises?
As a dreamer I look forward to many years of US$300000 -500000 a year due marked forces.
Thanks and please be gentle.
Is it true Korean,Emirates and Etihad got big payrises?
As a dreamer I look forward to many years of US$300000 -500000 a year due marked forces.
Thanks and please be gentle.