how Many are leaving ??
Join Date: Nov 1998
Location: Disneyland - with Mickey Mouse
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boys and gals. Pls stop talking about training and CX. There are no such thing as training here.. This is the only company Ive heard of that uses - Ideas, Conventions and Procedures. Standard is something that is described in FCOMs, Vols, FCTMs etc. etc. - its one big mess. Go fly and some have got one idea - some another - its like a flying club. Info and procedure here and there about the same things. Mickey Mouse. This is at the best an average big airline with at long way to go to get up with the big ones.
Incident statistics speeks for them selves - that being the ones that are accounted for!.. Naa.. Go fly and have fun where ever you come from - because you are not gonna find it here. Good luck to you folks.
/ Y.
Incident statistics speeks for them selves - that being the ones that are accounted for!.. Naa.. Go fly and have fun where ever you come from - because you are not gonna find it here. Good luck to you folks.
/ Y.
Join Date: Jun 2003
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Mickey Mouse.
With the arrogance that are running around, I doubt they will ever "get it". Yes, go fly somewhere else. Best advice I've seen on pprune in a while.
Join Date: Nov 2005
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Cmon Guys, how hard is it to play the game? By the time you get to have a crack at command you have seen it done 1000 times, you have seen it done well by some captains, hopefully the ones you want to model your management style on, and you have seen it done badly, the ones you dont want to copy. Play the game for 6months, even if you need to check your egos in for rehab for the duration, once you have passed with flying colours, then take cracks at the training department as a captain, they may start to listen then if your way of doing things is so much better than these guys are capable of teaching.
What is more dangerous do you think? A training department who want to train a certain way, or a candidate not flexible enough to learn another way because he knows it all, and cant be shown something different?
What is more dangerous do you think? A training department who want to train a certain way, or a candidate not flexible enough to learn another way because he knows it all, and cant be shown something different?
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"Cmon Guys, how hard is it to play the game? "
Well according to recent history, a degree of difficulty of anywhere between 0 and 9 depending on fleet and how rabid the board/checkers are.
More and more are turning commands down.
Maybe it is a different mindset or maybe the system is so out of control they just don't want to deal with it. Either way the mere fact that you acknowledge with your "play the game" statement that you are required to be someone you are not in the course, and will morph back into your "old" self after the course seems to indicate there is a problem, no?
Well according to recent history, a degree of difficulty of anywhere between 0 and 9 depending on fleet and how rabid the board/checkers are.
More and more are turning commands down.
Maybe it is a different mindset or maybe the system is so out of control they just don't want to deal with it. Either way the mere fact that you acknowledge with your "play the game" statement that you are required to be someone you are not in the course, and will morph back into your "old" self after the course seems to indicate there is a problem, no?
Join Date: Nov 2005
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JTR - You would only be your "Old self" if you ended up back in the right hand seat wouldnt you? 
Otherwise, you actually might have learnt something? Could that be possible?
If "play the game" means turning up willing to learn to fly their aircraft their way, what is wrong with that? Do you honestly think that people are being failed for absolutely no reason, or because they said "checked" and not "check"? Honestly? I have never met a Training Captain who didnt want his candidate to pass when he puts them up for check, or a check captain that wants to fail people regardless of their performance. But I have met people who have failed and had the lamest of excuses for their own poor performances, they can tell you the "only 1 thing" they did wrong on the check, or people who know the books backwards who cant even tie their shoe laces. You wouldnt give them a command either.
Otherwise, you actually might have learnt something? Could that be possible?
If "play the game" means turning up willing to learn to fly their aircraft their way, what is wrong with that? Do you honestly think that people are being failed for absolutely no reason, or because they said "checked" and not "check"? Honestly? I have never met a Training Captain who didnt want his candidate to pass when he puts them up for check, or a check captain that wants to fail people regardless of their performance. But I have met people who have failed and had the lamest of excuses for their own poor performances, they can tell you the "only 1 thing" they did wrong on the check, or people who know the books backwards who cant even tie their shoe laces. You wouldnt give them a command either.
Join Date: Aug 2000
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so by inference, a decade or so in the company does not bring you up to the mark, it is the 40 sectors of C+T that does it and nothing else. Interesting.
"Otherwise, you actually might have learnt something?"
The command course is not about learning, it is about polish. - Agree/Disagree?
Do you seriously think guys (and soon to be gals) spend 8,9,10 years in the company not busting their balls to climb the peak? Spend months studying for PCA's, weeks sweating before RT/PC's and line checks? Seriously, do you think they go into it with the wrong attitude, inadequate preparation, poor skill set?
"If "play the game" means turning up willing to learn to fly their aircraft their way, what is wrong with that? " - Nothing wrong with that, just as long as "their way" is bounded only by SOP, not personal preference.
"Do you honestly think that people are being failed for absolutely no reason, or because they said "checked" and not "check"? Honestly?" - No
"Otherwise, you actually might have learnt something?"
The command course is not about learning, it is about polish. - Agree/Disagree?
Do you seriously think guys (and soon to be gals) spend 8,9,10 years in the company not busting their balls to climb the peak? Spend months studying for PCA's, weeks sweating before RT/PC's and line checks? Seriously, do you think they go into it with the wrong attitude, inadequate preparation, poor skill set?
"If "play the game" means turning up willing to learn to fly their aircraft their way, what is wrong with that? " - Nothing wrong with that, just as long as "their way" is bounded only by SOP, not personal preference.
"Do you honestly think that people are being failed for absolutely no reason, or because they said "checked" and not "check"? Honestly?" - No
Join Date: Nov 2005
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Not sure why you have such a problem with the concept of learning something on a command course. Is this such a foreign concept? A command candidate should turn up knowing the books backwards, knowing the sops and all the possible variations and interpretations of evey in and out... This is a basic prerequisite. Polish? I hope we are talking about the same thing.
Yes, I think people have turned up to command training with poor skills, crap attitude, health problems, troubles at home, runny noses, no idea of the books, and every other possible human combination. However, they are the exception, not the rule.
10 years in the right hand seat and the back seat doesnt necessarily make you a switched on operator, infact that long in the golden chair can do quite the opposite. You honestly dont know any bone lazy SOs or FOs? Are all the guys you fly with Jedi Knights who couldnt possibly learn another thing or make a mistake? You know as well as I do, some people just do enough work to scrape through, anything extra is a waste of pi$$ drinking time.
Think of it like this... You turn up to a bbq with a brand new Ferrari, you just bought it. All your mates want a drive. Some, you wouldnt even let them in it, you know they are going to cane it as soon as they are around the corner. Some you think will be ok, you just want to ride around the block with them to make sure, some of your mates think they will be fine because they used to have an rs2000 escort back in Australia, and some probably are going to drive it better than you, because they already have ferraris.
Whats wrong with the company designating someone to "Screen their mates" with their new 777s?
Yes, I think people have turned up to command training with poor skills, crap attitude, health problems, troubles at home, runny noses, no idea of the books, and every other possible human combination. However, they are the exception, not the rule.
10 years in the right hand seat and the back seat doesnt necessarily make you a switched on operator, infact that long in the golden chair can do quite the opposite. You honestly dont know any bone lazy SOs or FOs? Are all the guys you fly with Jedi Knights who couldnt possibly learn another thing or make a mistake? You know as well as I do, some people just do enough work to scrape through, anything extra is a waste of pi$$ drinking time.
Think of it like this... You turn up to a bbq with a brand new Ferrari, you just bought it. All your mates want a drive. Some, you wouldnt even let them in it, you know they are going to cane it as soon as they are around the corner. Some you think will be ok, you just want to ride around the block with them to make sure, some of your mates think they will be fine because they used to have an rs2000 escort back in Australia, and some probably are going to drive it better than you, because they already have ferraris.
Whats wrong with the company designating someone to "Screen their mates" with their new 777s?
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All I can say is that, I have read these posts with interest over the last month or so. My feelings are exactly the same as the majority of people at Cathay. We feel constantly badgered, beaten and unwanted. I have never,ever worked for a company that treats it's staff so badly. The training is as bad as everyone says, just check after check after check. Previous experience is basically useless as you are treated as an idiot regardless of time in the seat. The exception are the "airforce" fast jet types which seem to be what cathay like.....The old airforce mentality is sickening. Hong Kong sucks. THere is no other way to say it. My kids are constantly ill and my youngest has constant trips to the Dr. Morale is non-existant. I have heard the phase "CX is a captains airline". I would like to qualify that and say CX is an A scale captains airline. They are the only ones who are compensated appropriately for putting up with the constant BS. If I had my time again, would I have joined CX......not in a million years! Steer clear of this over rated shambles..........
Join Date: Jun 2006
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Elroy Elroy Elroy......
Not sure why you have such a problem with the concept of learning something on a command course. Is this such a foreign concept? A command candidate should turn up knowing the books backwards,
knowing the sops and all the possible variations and interpretations of evey in and out... This is a basic prerequisite. Polish? I hope we are talking about the same thing.
You are way off mark suggesting that anyone tries to cruise through a command course here. The one good thing about a check and failing system is that people do the work. THEY BUST THEIR BACKS to prepare. There are a certain amount of justifiable failings but there are also those that should have passed. If we get a more standardised training criteria and standardised assesment process it would go along way too improving the moral on this issue.
We all know the process (command and command selection RT PC line checks) can be easy or impossible depending on who you get. That would not happen if all you say were true. Nobody wants to suck it and see !!
FG
Join Date: Nov 2005
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Training. What sort of training would you suggest? 40 sectors? Enough? Not enough? 10 sims? 20 sims? 50? Take the example of screening your friends at a bbq to drive your new ferrari I gave earlier. Even something that simple, they all had different requirements, different levels of training required. Even for letting your friends drive your car, there isnt a one size fits all response. Now try coming up with a one size fits all command training package for 1000+ pilots. What would you put in yours? One thing you wont find in any course is spoon feeding. I am not suggesting that that is what you are asking for either. If you know your stuff, and you have 10 years to learn it, you are showing a genuine effort to pass, but you are having a problem with a particular area, or something you just need to clarify, do you honestly think they would rather fail you than work on that area? 
OK, so now you have developed this amazing training system that gaurantees 100% Ben Konobis, 100% of the time, on all fleets, right across the board, how are you going to make sure the guys you choose to train and check under your new system, all do so in exactly the same way to all candidates they pass through the system? Its easy to whinge and complain about the system, what are you going to replace it with?
You and I could sit down and read the same paragraph from a book and come up with two completely different interpretations of what we read. Now lets sit down and read 4 FCOMs. At the end of reading all that, do you think we would have identical interpretations on the entire manual suite? Doubt it. Differences are inevitable, especially where the written word is inolved.
No one disagrees with the unfairness of marking someone down for personal preference over SOP, it is unfair and unprofessional. The problem is when a check and training guy offers a suggestion on how to do something that he has used to his benefit for over a decade as a wide body captain, and some j&rk off SO or FO says, "Well where is that written?" If a checky is telling you something contrary to an SOP, or limitation, then that is a different issue. You have every right to quote the book, and show them where it is written, and that they are wrong. Doesnt matter what their personal preference is, no one will fail you for doing it completely by the book.
As for trainers withholding information from a candidates that are coming up for check, so that they will be gauranteed to fail, you dont believe that do you? Sounds like the rantings of a failed candidate... "It was my training Captains fault, he set me up to fail! If only he told me about the visual approach into Osaka! He knew I would get it, it is his fault!" Yeah, they all sat around the table, and worked out how to fail you. Do you honestly believe that if you picked the brains of a training captain prior to your final check that they would withhold anything?
Completely agree that longhaul doesnt prepare you for regional. So, if you are not well prepared, you get 12 months in the right hand seat to learn it after you miss out on your first attempt. If you take the egos out of it, it is a good result. If you still cant do it after 12 months, should you have a command? The system that has you jumping from one fleet to another is not ideal for training, but that is a result of the employment agreement, seniority, and your personal preference. Nothing to do with training, a completely seperate issue.
OK, so now you have developed this amazing training system that gaurantees 100% Ben Konobis, 100% of the time, on all fleets, right across the board, how are you going to make sure the guys you choose to train and check under your new system, all do so in exactly the same way to all candidates they pass through the system? Its easy to whinge and complain about the system, what are you going to replace it with?
You and I could sit down and read the same paragraph from a book and come up with two completely different interpretations of what we read. Now lets sit down and read 4 FCOMs. At the end of reading all that, do you think we would have identical interpretations on the entire manual suite? Doubt it. Differences are inevitable, especially where the written word is inolved.
No one disagrees with the unfairness of marking someone down for personal preference over SOP, it is unfair and unprofessional. The problem is when a check and training guy offers a suggestion on how to do something that he has used to his benefit for over a decade as a wide body captain, and some j&rk off SO or FO says, "Well where is that written?" If a checky is telling you something contrary to an SOP, or limitation, then that is a different issue. You have every right to quote the book, and show them where it is written, and that they are wrong. Doesnt matter what their personal preference is, no one will fail you for doing it completely by the book.
As for trainers withholding information from a candidates that are coming up for check, so that they will be gauranteed to fail, you dont believe that do you? Sounds like the rantings of a failed candidate... "It was my training Captains fault, he set me up to fail! If only he told me about the visual approach into Osaka! He knew I would get it, it is his fault!" Yeah, they all sat around the table, and worked out how to fail you. Do you honestly believe that if you picked the brains of a training captain prior to your final check that they would withhold anything?
Completely agree that longhaul doesnt prepare you for regional. So, if you are not well prepared, you get 12 months in the right hand seat to learn it after you miss out on your first attempt. If you take the egos out of it, it is a good result. If you still cant do it after 12 months, should you have a command? The system that has you jumping from one fleet to another is not ideal for training, but that is a result of the employment agreement, seniority, and your personal preference. Nothing to do with training, a completely seperate issue.
Join Date: Oct 2006
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How Many are Leaving?
Back on topic guys;
As of August 2006, we needed to recruit a-man-a-day for just over two years to man the Company's planned expansion. At that time, my Fleet Management stated they were at about 6 per week inbound; i.e. 1 man per week shortfall.
I spoke with some of our colleagues that attended a briefing earlier this year, where one of the Managers indicated that we started to lose crew back into NAM carriers at the rate of 2 per week from mid November 2006.
That 3 per week behind the drag curve, assuming we manage to improve in the second half of last year.
I wonder what the management will try next to bludgeon an improvement in moral when the shortage starts to bite?
As of August 2006, we needed to recruit a-man-a-day for just over two years to man the Company's planned expansion. At that time, my Fleet Management stated they were at about 6 per week inbound; i.e. 1 man per week shortfall.
I spoke with some of our colleagues that attended a briefing earlier this year, where one of the Managers indicated that we started to lose crew back into NAM carriers at the rate of 2 per week from mid November 2006.
That 3 per week behind the drag curve, assuming we manage to improve in the second half of last year.
I wonder what the management will try next to bludgeon an improvement in moral when the shortage starts to bite?
Join Date: Apr 2006
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joining CX
Hey there! sorry to change the subject but i was wondering if someone could give me some advise on finding a cheap hotel near the airport. i have an interview comming up and i would like to check out hk for a couple of days
many thanx
many thanx
Join Date: May 2002
Location: up here, everyone looks like ants!
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The transport in HKG is excellent. so don't limit yourself - I would recommend the YMCA in TST - reasonably priced, excellent location and great hotel facilities.
http://www.ymcahk.org.hk/sales/html/hst001e.htm
If you're stuck and rooms are unavailable, try the Novotel in Tung Chung, 15 minutes from Cathay City and also close to "Slashers Arms" (The Aviator Pub) - the Oasis "Recruiting Centre"
http://www.accorhotels-asia.com/6239...l/default.aspx
Good luck.
http://www.ymcahk.org.hk/sales/html/hst001e.htm
If you're stuck and rooms are unavailable, try the Novotel in Tung Chung, 15 minutes from Cathay City and also close to "Slashers Arms" (The Aviator Pub) - the Oasis "Recruiting Centre"
http://www.accorhotels-asia.com/6239...l/default.aspx
Good luck.
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
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Hi guys
Just a quick question for you if you can help. I would like to join Cathay Pacific. I love Hong Kong, I love Sim checks, and I love this forum. Can any one provide me with a contact for me to send my CV to or any advice. I have nearly 2000 Hours on boeing 737's in the UK.
Its been great fun reading the posts. I would like to find out for myself what CX is like.
Thanks
[email protected]
Just a quick question for you if you can help. I would like to join Cathay Pacific. I love Hong Kong, I love Sim checks, and I love this forum. Can any one provide me with a contact for me to send my CV to or any advice. I have nearly 2000 Hours on boeing 737's in the UK.
Its been great fun reading the posts. I would like to find out for myself what CX is like.
Thanks
[email protected]
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New Joiners resign
New Joiners resign
I heard this week that 2 new joiners have resigned, before they started their line training. The first was "repatriated" the same afternoon that he resigned.
I heard this week that 2 new joiners have resigned, before they started their line training. The first was "repatriated" the same afternoon that he resigned.