madandy

Hi guys (and girls)
I'm in need of some genuine advice as i'm feeling rather despondant at this time.
I need to know if there is any light at the end of this long tunnel?
I'll cut this long story short (ish).
I'm 29 and am desperate to become a professional pilot. I'm seriously thinking about doing the expensive (albeit comprehensive) Oxford Aviation APP Ab-Initio course but obviously with such a big outlay i'm slightly concerned. I'm in the process of getting funding together for it (Mummy and Daddy definately aren't an option for me) but at the moment it looks like I'm going to have to rely on 100% bank loan; if I can get it!
I suppose the most important question would have to be: will i get a job at the end of it (Oxford tell me i will!!!). Will I then have to pay for a Type Rating at the end of it myself? It seems like I need copious amounts of money dripping from various different crevices

I keep reading (on other threads on this site) of how many out of work CPL/IR and fATPL pilots there are and I'm worried to say the least.

I don't want anyone to make the decision for me, I would just like some good, independant and genuine advice....I say genuine because I know I may be future competition for you but would ask you to put that aside.

The last question would have to be: Is it all worth it

Crosswind Limits

Hi,

I was also 29 when I started. Have all the paperwork now but no airline job......yet! Instructing at weekends and run a small business in the week.

Doesn't matter what Oxford say there's NO guarantee of a job. Unless you're sponsored everyone takes a gamble with pilot training. As far as type ratings go, if things continue the way they are now, before long a type rating will be part of ab initio training and no one will bat an eyelid! That will be a sad day indeed. For all our sakes I hope I'm wrong!

Is it all worth it? Only you will know the answer to that. I think if you stick at it long enough you will most probably achieve it BUT at what cost? I hear people say flying is the ultimate mistress and that's a pretty accurate statement. It's addictive and if it's in your blood I guess you'll have to give it a go but be prepared to spend a fortune and if you have a wife and family make sure they don't feel left out EVER. Also be ready for sleepless nights, waking up with a cold sweat wondering what the hell possessed you to become a pilot. There'll be lots of dark moments too, when you feel the whole world is against you and nothing seems to go right. Stick at it!

The industry is fickle and unstable and most pilots accept the insecurity that brings. When things are good they are VERY good but when things are bad, you soon reach the bowels of hell!

If you want stability and security this is not the industry for you. No one enters flying to make loads of money!

Good luck.

Pilot Pete

Madandy

check your PMs

PP

moo

madandy, i seem to remember a post with exactly the same title as yours being started only a few weeks ago, try a few searches on it. as for the 100% bank loan, well if you're thinking about the OATS APP then you're looking at a Ģ72000 overall and I personally think that there are much better packages to be had for about half that, which would leave you with a nice sum to complete a instructor rating/easyjet type-rating sponsorship etc.
is it all worth it? It'd F###cking better be!!!!!!!!! hahahaha!!! and i'm sure it is!

VFE

1) I need to know if there is any light at the end of this long tunnel?
So they say. I believe them.

2) will i get a job at the end of it? (Oxford tell me i will!!!).
Perhaps not for a while but sooner or later you should get a break. Despite popular belief even the old sponsored cadets from way-back-when were not guaranteed a job after completing their training. Oxford will tell you anything to get you to part with your money. Never listen to training providers for anything other than training information and even then get it confirmed from a third party.

3) Will I then have to pay for a Type Rating at the end of it myself?
It's looking increasingly that way I'm afraid. Most airlines sooner or later will take Ryanairs lead and ask inexperienced pilots to pay for their rating. Out of the three newbies I know who got jobs this year, two paid for their rating. It's no use trying to unite job seekers into refusing to pay for ratings either. This topic has risen on PPRuNe before and clearly indicated there're plenty of eager beavers out there willing to sell their granny to get a flying job. This seems to be acceptable too so therefore the more socialistic amongst us are clearly lacking the required dedication to succeed as a pilot it would appear. It seems pointless trying to make a stand against this trend so it would be prudent to prepare yourself for financing your first type rating.

The last question would have to be: Is it all worth it?
See answer one above.

VFE.

Wee Weasley Welshman

Yes, it is all worth it.

Most airline pilots you will ever meet paid lots of money and took huge gambles and worked very hard to be where they are. Few would ever swap jobs.

Its rubbish hard work lots of the time. But sometimes its wonderful. And thats more than most people can claim about their jobs.

Good luck,

WWW

redsnail

You'll need a bloody good sense of humour I can tell you.
Why? Because when crewing forget to book you a hotel or taxi and you are standing around waiting to get into your "room" or a taxi so you can go home you can remember just why you started this game.
Don't think I am joking? Ha! I am not. Perhaps it is better in the SLF world but in the freight world you are just another money making cog in the wheel.
Oh I forgot, crewing will also forget to book you a flight home. (When positioning).
Min rest. I love it.

Easy Glider

For what it's worth, I am one of the ones who did not have to pay vast amounts of money to get into this industry 15 years ago.

Would I do it again?? Never! especially if I had to pay the amount you guys have to today.

I would SERIOUSLY consider a different proffesion and fly for fun at the weekends.

The money at the end of the tunnel is just not worth the outlay.

WX Man

EZY glider:

I used to think that, so I took the plunge (OK, post 9/11) and went for a different career (ATC). Didn't get on with it... don't know whether it was just ATC or the whole non-flying thing, but after a few months in the ATC sim I yearned to be back flying. I still do.

They kicked me off the ATC course I was on, and the first thing I did was examine seriously whether I wanted to spend Ģ25K getting myself an ATPL.

My conclusion? I start at BCFT in 25 days, and I can't wait!

MJR

Madandy,

two things:

1. Dont spend any money until you have got a Class 1 medical
2. Everything Xwind limits said is right, I thing flying is a little bit like the lottery, you have to be in it to win at it.

cheers

MJR

Easy Glider

WX Man,

What I am saying is that the outlay, (Ģ25.000 seems to be on the conserative side,) is not worth your POSSIBLE renumeration at the end of the tunnel.

I am a 757/767 skipper and am painfully aware that my spending power in real terms is less now than it was 15 years ago and will almost certainly continue to decrease over the next 15 years.

My advice as someone who has "been there done it," become a lawyer and make some real money!

This game is just not the same as it used to be.

D McQuire

Well I've been there and done that on the old money making front and I have to say there is more to life than making lots of lolly. It may keep the wife and kids happy but it won't do much for you when you look back at 60 and say 'what if I'd gone after my dream?'. A 'what if' too many for some.

FlyingForFun

D McQuire - very well put, couldn't agree more.

FFF
-------------

gabu

No one has a crystal ball and who can say you'll enjoy it, I'm 1/2 way thru my atpl exams and am having serious concerns about carrying on.

The are literally 1000's upon 1000's of pilots out there unemployed at the moment, some with a barebones fatpl to 1000's of hours on type who are unemployed.

When I go to these god awful exams (atpls) everyones talking the big talk thinking the're Mr. charlie big potatoes but there all looking thru rosie glasses abit.

It begins to dawn on you than fanciful idea may not be the right idea, sure everyone knows some one who's got themselves a job and loves to talk about it. but at these exam venues you'll meet 100's & I mean literally 100's of people who are doing what you are doing makes you think a little i tell you.

All these very well experienced pilots, All these military jocks just waiting in the RAF until things pick up. Where does that leave you? Okay if you Daddy is a pilot for BA etc


Personally i thinking of putting of putting a down payment on a nice motor boat somewhere nice in Florida/Australia and taking rich tourists out fishing every day, charging them $60 an hour, for game fishing.

Seems a lot easier than all this B*****t and doing at the moment.

But we'll see

Don't listen to all the crap the flight schools give about oh you'll definitely get a job, yeh they'll sell you there own mother if they'd think it would convince you, you'd get a flying job.

Well I'm off to ponder the future.

VFE

Always makes me chuckle when a qualified and experienced pilot posts in wannabes and tells it like it is. Nobody ever listens!

It's easy to downplay something which most would deem exciting when you've (in Easy Gliders words) been there and done it. I played in bands for about seven years, enjoying pub lock-in's with free beer till we dropped, girls chatting US up, cash on the hip for playing music we loved for about an hour and a half each night. I gave that up because it lost the edge for me. It was becoming obvious that I was quite likely to make the break into something big when I decided to quit too so I'm perhaps more stupid than most but it was boring me.

Ring any bells regarding your flying experience does it Easy Glider?

Funny thing is - now I've had a break of about two years or more from anything remotely resembling the musical workload I had before I kinda miss it and plan to start playing again when I've got my pilot ticket but I digress......

I don't think I could convince anyone other than actual musicians that being a musician is anything other than exciting and wild but the downsides I experienced which eventually led me to drop it and follow the airline pilot dream rarely get mentioned as it's the downside to something seemingly rosy. Most things have downsides - that's life.

Money is not the main factor for most wannabe pilots just like it isn't the motivating force behind being a musician. It's the love for it which drives you and not the possible rewards so you'd do better to tell us all what it is about your working day that bores you so much Easy Glider rather than tell us all to become lawyers which most I'd imagine have zero interest in becoming.

Anyone who thinks about giving up does not have the dedication to succed in flying or music. Grasping the similarities with flying and music here? I know one thing - all those pilots I've met have one underlying similarity: determination and the 'I won't take any s**t which life throws at me' factor.

I can sympathise with Easy Gliders feelings regarding a career in aviation and applaud him for standing up and saying it's not worth following. It's the nature of the beast that most here won't take a blind bit of notice. Survival instinct if you will.

VFE.

Pilot Pete

I was once told by a guy at the CAA that something like 75% of those sitting in the exam halls never go on to fly commercially.

What you have to remember is that an awful lot of them are re-sitting, they are not all there for the first time. Many of them will not get all the exams in their three attempts and will give up then. Many run out of money and give up after (which is when it gets expensive.) Many get the licence issued and then give up by letting things lapse and going back to earn money doing what they were doing before. So you can see how easily it is for the number actually gaining airline pilot employment to be significantly lower than those you see in the exam halls.

The one thing that is guaranteed in this industry is that if you do not show strong determination you will fall by the wayside. Now is a particularly harsh time to be seeking that first airline appointment, but times have been like this before. The ones who stuck at it got through and do work for airlines now. The same applies today. You may not get that job now, it may take a year or two, but use that time as well as you can to gain more hours and experience anywhere, flying anything and you will be displaying the determination that will bring you the reward at some point in the future.

So gabu, it all comes down to how much you want it. You are experiencing the tough times right now and we all remember those exams and how difficult they can be. If you are not 100% committed to a flying career you will become one of those statistics. What I would say is that if you would prefer to be selling fishing boat trips then go and do it now before you commit large sums of cash to the rest of your flying training. If you have to fly then this will get you through the tough times.

As for choosing to become a lawyer or doctor or anything else because it would pay more money, well that's fine, but don't expect to have it easier training for one of these careers, especially if you're 30+. Sure there are disgruntled pilots, but I would guess that there are disgruntled individuals in every job known to man, except perhaps astronauts?!

Things will turn around, they always do and if you are still in the hunt and want it enough you will get a job flying, it just might take longer than wanted. The main thing to remember in the current market is to do everything possible to minimise risk of failure should you be lucky enough to get an opportunity, but then again if you want it enough you would already know that....

PP

Maximum

Don't ignore Easy Glider's comments without giving serious thought to their origins.

I've posted on the realities of the job before, and can completely agree with his sentiments.

I think the bottom line is, you're getting into a profession which will seriously curtail your freedoms. As long as you understand the implications of that, then fine.

This job will make huge demands on your time, your health, your bank balance and your family. It has ruined more marriages than I've ever seen.

And on top of all that, you will always remain an employee, a pawn to be used when needed in someone else's wealth creation scheme. And completely disposable when times are tough. No chance to become a partner in this business, or set up your own practice, or be creative, or diversify.

How do the airline bosses view you? For the most part as taxi drivers who don't have the wherewithall to go out and make some real money like them. Don't expect any respect or consideration from them.

Once you finally secure that airline seat, the job basically doesn't change significantly until you retire at the other end. And all you will have is memories. You carried tens of thousands of people from A to B. That's it. Nothing else to show for your labours.

Not trying to put anyone off, but be prepared for the reality.

maxy101

Good post Maximum !! Without wishing to sound like a wet blanket, I would reiterate Maximums and Easy Glidersī posts. Itīs certainly not the job it was 15 yrs ago when I joined, and even then I can remember the Captains telling me the same....
The job has gone progressively downhill. If you want to fly aeroplanes for a living, then great, go for it, but if I had my time again, I wouldnīt have chosen this career, given a choice between going into the city, law or running my own business.
Thatīs not to say I donīt make the best of it, however, it is amazing how many people at Big Airways are counting the days until retirement....

Flying Farmer

Just my two penneth worth, is it worth it?

Can't tell you that yet, still instructing, from where I am at the moment on a very meagre wage the answer is no.

A bit of background for you.

Am a third generation farmer, silver spoon in my mouth definately not, worked hard, really hard for twenty years to build some sort of future for myself and my family. For anyone in the know its the ultimate dead mans shoes job, work like a dog until the old man croaks, then maybe you control your destiny!

Methinks at 38, ****** this, could be an oap before it comes right and decides to down size house and retrain. What a good move it was, farming is not so good now and the family, read father, makes me redundant on 24 Dec last year!!!

So guess it depends where you are coming from, leave a well paid job to persue a career in Aviation, possibly think again, its a long hard road and I'm just on the first rung.

I want it really badly, my family depends on it, its tough, your choice, your'e up against some stiff competion.

FF

whatever you decide, best of luck it's fun

Hulk

can take around 10 years before to sit in an airline aircraft with a basic salary.
minimum requirement to apply are 1500h, 200 multi and some jet ot turbine.