Is it all worth it?
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No it sounds like a lousy deal, however I live about 30 minutes drive from Kidlington so I could live in my house with my wife, rather that in some cr*ppy study bedroom where your neighbours play bad music too loudly 
I understand from "senior sources at BA" that whilst Oxford might not be a requirement any more, it would certainly count strongly as one of those magic ways to make your CV look attractive compared to the several thousand other wanabees he might be considering. I am quite willing to believe it is treated as just another license by the majority of other airlines.
Speaking as a more "mature" (
) wanabee, the main consideration for me of an integrated course is timescales... I could finish an integrated by say 36, but trying to run my current career while doing an modular would probably make me nearly 40 before I finished my ATPL.
Or maybe I should just open a grocery shop
I understand from "senior sources at BA" that whilst Oxford might not be a requirement any more, it would certainly count strongly as one of those magic ways to make your CV look attractive compared to the several thousand other wanabees he might be considering. I am quite willing to believe it is treated as just another license by the majority of other airlines.
Speaking as a more "mature" (
) wanabee, the main consideration for me of an integrated course is timescales... I could finish an integrated by say 36, but trying to run my current career while doing an modular would probably make me nearly 40 before I finished my ATPL.Or maybe I should just open a grocery shop
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Without doubt the beacon of sense here is, TheHustler.
Having been there done that, bought the t-shirt and completeted the exams. I can tell you now, it is filled up with dreamers who are now very much in debt and a lot of them are very much unemployed.
I think the CAA should actually approach people on the street and ask them if they want to fly for a living, if they say "No" well they already show common sense and should be brought to the next stage.
And as for all the romantic poets who say "Follow your dream"
how about you get used to following the social welfare que first?
Or have all your possesions reposesed.
If you have a family already, forget about it alltogether, just cause you are having a mid life crises, no need to drag them into it by putting such huge strain and financial hardship on them.
Civil Aviation is filled with dreamers who didn't like the office job and bought themselves licences, unfortunately there is no test in the medical to see if they have a few screws loose.
So civil aviation now has quite a fair few eccentric dreamers.
If you dream of being unemployed and broke, save yourself a lot of hassle. buy yourself a cardboard box and move out on the streets, donate everything to charity, it will give you a clearer concience then giving it away to huge flight training organisations or massive airliners.
If you are thinking of getting into it, don't!!
Fly privately, much more fun, even if you feel that you should be making money from it, resist the urge, you will only loose more then you will make.
Remember this.
Having been there done that, bought the t-shirt and completeted the exams. I can tell you now, it is filled up with dreamers who are now very much in debt and a lot of them are very much unemployed.
I think the CAA should actually approach people on the street and ask them if they want to fly for a living, if they say "No" well they already show common sense and should be brought to the next stage.
And as for all the romantic poets who say "Follow your dream"
how about you get used to following the social welfare que first?
Or have all your possesions reposesed.
If you have a family already, forget about it alltogether, just cause you are having a mid life crises, no need to drag them into it by putting such huge strain and financial hardship on them.
Civil Aviation is filled with dreamers who didn't like the office job and bought themselves licences, unfortunately there is no test in the medical to see if they have a few screws loose.
So civil aviation now has quite a fair few eccentric dreamers.
If you dream of being unemployed and broke, save yourself a lot of hassle. buy yourself a cardboard box and move out on the streets, donate everything to charity, it will give you a clearer concience then giving it away to huge flight training organisations or massive airliners.
If you are thinking of getting into it, don't!!
Fly privately, much more fun, even if you feel that you should be making money from it, resist the urge, you will only loose more then you will make.
Remember this.
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Dont mean to sound synical but why is it so hard over there? I mean everyone I speak to that goes from here, (Aussieland) to the UK or Europe, pick up a job on a turbine within months. Sure it costs a bit but **** if thats what it takes.
I fly in the REAL bush of Australia where one day its scenic flights and the next aboriginies to their camps. The other day I had to stay the night in the aircraft as I was worried that they would draw on the wings and put rocks in the fuel. I slept through them doing it! and found 4-5litres of water looking substance and there aint any moisture here.
We get spat on, told to f**k-off, strangled and bascially treated like **** by our customers. If we're lucky we'll get guards on the flights with prisoners. We work 12hr duties and get paid for 2 hrs if we're lucky at $30 AUD an hour.
Now this might be the world standard, I really hope its not, but Aussies come to the UK with 2000hrs in command of C210's and jump straight into RHS of turbines.
Over here you get your licence for around $45,000 AUD then go to the bush for 2 years, flying a single. If you get a break you will go into the bush a little bit more to fly a twin (Baron or C310) for 2 more years. Now if you suck the right tuber you'll get a RHS on a Metro where you'll stay there for 5 years. Then Command on a C441 untill by the time your 35 you'll be LHS of a Brasillia.
Unless you get a job in QANTAS with 500hrs command.
Hope you guys arent complaining about the difficulties of getting a turbine job after completing your licence.
I really want to come over but dont know where to start getting info, of inside info on the places to go.
Any advice here would be great.
Keep your bloody chins up as we fly cause we love it. We're all the same at the end of the day, we love getting raped for what we do.
S
I fly in the REAL bush of Australia where one day its scenic flights and the next aboriginies to their camps. The other day I had to stay the night in the aircraft as I was worried that they would draw on the wings and put rocks in the fuel. I slept through them doing it! and found 4-5litres of water looking substance and there aint any moisture here.
We get spat on, told to f**k-off, strangled and bascially treated like **** by our customers. If we're lucky we'll get guards on the flights with prisoners. We work 12hr duties and get paid for 2 hrs if we're lucky at $30 AUD an hour.
Now this might be the world standard, I really hope its not, but Aussies come to the UK with 2000hrs in command of C210's and jump straight into RHS of turbines.
Over here you get your licence for around $45,000 AUD then go to the bush for 2 years, flying a single. If you get a break you will go into the bush a little bit more to fly a twin (Baron or C310) for 2 more years. Now if you suck the right tuber you'll get a RHS on a Metro where you'll stay there for 5 years. Then Command on a C441 untill by the time your 35 you'll be LHS of a Brasillia.
Unless you get a job in QANTAS with 500hrs command.
Hope you guys arent complaining about the difficulties of getting a turbine job after completing your licence.
I really want to come over but dont know where to start getting info, of inside info on the places to go.
Any advice here would be great.
Keep your bloody chins up as we fly cause we love it. We're all the same at the end of the day, we love getting raped for what we do.
S
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autosync
I hear all you say, although I will grant you that you are be biggest pessimist/realist I have yet encountered on pprune
I kinda figure the only advantage of being an old(er) fart looking to get into aviation is that if after a year of training i cannot get a job flying turboprops I can always go back to the job I currently do (which pays reasonably) and wait it out. I was going to move house next year which would add about 80 grand to my mortgage, if I stayed in the same house and did an ATPL I would be no worse off.. certainly not sitting on the dole queue.
Epaulettes
I hear all you say, although I will grant you that you are be biggest pessimist/realist I have yet encountered on pprune
I kinda figure the only advantage of being an old(er) fart looking to get into aviation is that if after a year of training i cannot get a job flying turboprops I can always go back to the job I currently do (which pays reasonably) and wait it out. I was going to move house next year which would add about 80 grand to my mortgage, if I stayed in the same house and did an ATPL I would be no worse off.. certainly not sitting on the dole queue.
Epaulettes
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"I was going to move house next year which would add about 80 grand to my mortgage, if I stayed in the same house and did an ATPL I would be no worse off.. certainly not sitting on the dole queue"
I couldn't think of a more better way to spend 80K - new house or new career - i know which one i would choose!
Good luck
I couldn't think of a more better way to spend 80K - new house or new career - i know which one i would choose!
Good luck
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Ok UKFlyer, but I think the general point is that you don't have to spend 80K on the training in the first place - you could do your ATPLs for around 40K, leaving 40K to spend more wisely. 
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Errr.
What's the difference between getting an integrated course at Oxford and doing a modular course at Oxford? It's all the same: syllabus, aircraft, subject matter, except I can put modular on my CV or integrated. One costs less than the other, but you can't say the quality is any different; Oxford certainly don't say that.
Paying more has a rather tenuous link to commitment.
What's the difference between getting an integrated course at Oxford and doing a modular course at Oxford? It's all the same: syllabus, aircraft, subject matter, except I can put modular on my CV or integrated. One costs less than the other, but you can't say the quality is any different; Oxford certainly don't say that.
Paying more has a rather tenuous link to commitment.
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My reply to some of your posts. Firstly, my original post was 100% genuine and it was not meant as a personal attack on anyone. So Pilot Pete, I don't know why you seemed to take it so. You seem a touch over sensitive? Not quite sure why you feel the need for the sniping remarks and to tell me that you have dinner parties and get pissed with your mates ??? When I was refering to being able to buying a house, social life etc I was making comparisons to what I had then, and what I have now, not with what you or any other pilot out there has. I am just sharing my experience of aviation, which though different to yours, probaly strikes a chord with many wannabes out there.
And as for my post being sour grapes, no definitly not, I am simply trying to give another point of view so others do not make the same expensive mistakes that I have made. People can then weigh up the financial risks involved, some of the pros and cons of a career in aviation and make an informed decision. That is what was asked for by the original poster of this thread. Surely, people want to hear both sides of the story ? Yes, maybe I did not want the job as much as some of you do out there, but I knew when to cut my losses. There are many people out there who do want to be a pilot as much as the next person, but for whatever reason it just does did not happen for them, no matter how hard they have tried. There are just not enough jobs to go round. It's very easy to tell everyone to just go for it, especially when your one of the lucky ones who is flying the nice jet, but your not going to be there to bail them out if it doesn't happen.
From my point of view and from what I saw and experienced the grass wasn't greener on the other side, I just came to realize that the lifestyle was not for me, and that I cold find more fullfilement in a different career. Luckily for me I found a different career and lifestyle that I could pursue and enjoy. I know of pilots who are bored of flying, hate the lifestyle, but can't leave because the're not qualified to do anything else. Others might find themselves, hopelessly in debt with a qualification that is useless everywhere else except aviation. So just as some people may think they may regret never going for it, other people may regret going for it in a big way. Passing the flight tests, exams etc is the first and easiest hurdle to pass.
I'm not trying to discourage anyone from following their dreams, it's just that most dreams do not cost +£50K, and having £50K debt is not a dream that you can wake up from and find it has dissappeared. I also find it hard to believe that more and more wannabes seem willing to pay for tpye ratings. Crazy ! What next ? Pilots paying to work for an airline !
On a final note, as has been said many times before, if you are going to go for it, at least have a back up plan, otherwise your dream might turn into a nightmare, as it nearly did for me.
And as for my post being sour grapes, no definitly not, I am simply trying to give another point of view so others do not make the same expensive mistakes that I have made. People can then weigh up the financial risks involved, some of the pros and cons of a career in aviation and make an informed decision. That is what was asked for by the original poster of this thread. Surely, people want to hear both sides of the story ? Yes, maybe I did not want the job as much as some of you do out there, but I knew when to cut my losses. There are many people out there who do want to be a pilot as much as the next person, but for whatever reason it just does did not happen for them, no matter how hard they have tried. There are just not enough jobs to go round. It's very easy to tell everyone to just go for it, especially when your one of the lucky ones who is flying the nice jet, but your not going to be there to bail them out if it doesn't happen.
From my point of view and from what I saw and experienced the grass wasn't greener on the other side, I just came to realize that the lifestyle was not for me, and that I cold find more fullfilement in a different career. Luckily for me I found a different career and lifestyle that I could pursue and enjoy. I know of pilots who are bored of flying, hate the lifestyle, but can't leave because the're not qualified to do anything else. Others might find themselves, hopelessly in debt with a qualification that is useless everywhere else except aviation. So just as some people may think they may regret never going for it, other people may regret going for it in a big way. Passing the flight tests, exams etc is the first and easiest hurdle to pass.
I'm not trying to discourage anyone from following their dreams, it's just that most dreams do not cost +£50K, and having £50K debt is not a dream that you can wake up from and find it has dissappeared. I also find it hard to believe that more and more wannabes seem willing to pay for tpye ratings. Crazy ! What next ? Pilots paying to work for an airline !
On a final note, as has been said many times before, if you are going to go for it, at least have a back up plan, otherwise your dream might turn into a nightmare, as it nearly did for me.
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Serengeti,
If you would like to know the story about changing an Australian licence to a JAR one then search my name in "Wanabes" and "Dunnunda and Godzone". I can assure you right now that if you don't have time on turbines before you turn up then it's a long hard struggle to get a job.
I've done the bush flying in Oz as well plus flown a few turboprops too. The competition is very fierce for any turbine job here and untill recently there was a lot of jet experienced guys out of work.
Also, check out the LASORS Section G. That will spell out exactly what is required.
If you would like to know the story about changing an Australian licence to a JAR one then search my name in "Wanabes" and "Dunnunda and Godzone". I can assure you right now that if you don't have time on turbines before you turn up then it's a long hard struggle to get a job.
I've done the bush flying in Oz as well plus flown a few turboprops too. The competition is very fierce for any turbine job here and untill recently there was a lot of jet experienced guys out of work.
Also, check out the LASORS Section G. That will spell out exactly what is required.
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Oh Oh!!
So while we get a lot of attention here may I ask views on why some flight schools like Stapleford in essex advertises £25,000 for ATPL paid up front or £30,000 pay as you go, why then do other schools charge double?
And what's/how much is a type rating? is that after the ATPL exams?
Damn I'm getting confused
And while I'm here is it worth doing a degree in Aviation Management with PPL and ATPL ground exams as part of the course? All flying is paid for by student?
So;
Student Loan for degree
Career Development loan for PPL flying and books, and a little more (£8k)
HSBC Loan to pay off career development loan and the pay for ATPL
(in this degrees case it takes you to CPL level) what the difference between CPL and ATPL?
Is this a wise route? will get a qualification as well as licence.
Advice would be nice, check link below 4 more info on what i'm talking about-
Check here for what I'm saying......
And what's/how much is a type rating? is that after the ATPL exams?
Damn I'm getting confused
And while I'm here is it worth doing a degree in Aviation Management with PPL and ATPL ground exams as part of the course? All flying is paid for by student?
So;
Student Loan for degree
Career Development loan for PPL flying and books, and a little more (£8k)
HSBC Loan to pay off career development loan and the pay for ATPL
(in this degrees case it takes you to CPL level) what the difference between CPL and ATPL?
Is this a wise route? will get a qualification as well as licence.
Advice would be nice, check link below 4 more info on what i'm talking about-
Check here for what I'm saying......
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"So while we get a lot of attention here may I ask views on why some flight schools like Stapleford in essex advertises £25,000 for ATPL paid up front or £30,000 pay as you go, why then do other schools charge double?"
You are paying extra money, for school x, because of the 'name' of the school. I wouldn't see it as anything else. Bottom line is you get the same thing. Whether people can justify paying an extra 20 to 30,000 on just the name is entirely their choice. School x will spend a fortune on advertising and marketing.
It is the same situation with US schools, you can get the same ratings in two completely different ways - FBO or the more expensive 'academy'. The planes at the FBO will be older, the schedules may be a bit tighter - but this is counter-balanced by the cheaper ratings..
You are paying extra money, for school x, because of the 'name' of the school. I wouldn't see it as anything else. Bottom line is you get the same thing. Whether people can justify paying an extra 20 to 30,000 on just the name is entirely their choice. School x will spend a fortune on advertising and marketing.
It is the same situation with US schools, you can get the same ratings in two completely different ways - FBO or the more expensive 'academy'. The planes at the FBO will be older, the schedules may be a bit tighter - but this is counter-balanced by the cheaper ratings..
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Frantic It's difficult sometimes, in print, to get your point across briefly without being misunderstood; to write about all the circumstances that caused you to take the decisions you did takes too long, yet to abbreviate your narrative risks the reader jumping to unjustified conclusions. Risks of the BB life, I'm afraid!
Anyway, no matter what has gone before, I entirely agree with your last post. This career isn't for everybody. It isn't even right for all those who'd like to have a shot at it. Even many of those for whom it is the ideal career will fall by the wayside for medical reasons, lack of aptitude, lack of application, lack of money or just plain lack of luck. As you say, you must have a back-up plan - and you should have a point (either in time or cash) beyond which you will not go unless there is a realistic chance of employment.
For some, for whom flying is the only career thay will consider, there is no such point - and good luck to them. But for most, practicalities and responsibilities will intervene. Like all prudent gamblers, you should set a 'stop-loss' point beyond which your own assessment of your potential returns outweighs your investment. Where that point lies depends on your own circumstances, the state of the market, and how much of a risk you're willing to take. That inevitably means that there will be those less deserving, but less risk-averse, who will succeed. That's life! Just be aware that, as in most things, flying training is a gamble and you can get in out of your depth. Hopefully, the market is set to improve and reduce the risk for many of you.
As for Master Yoda's point, it goes to show that you must look very carefully at what you are getting for your money. If School A is offering training to fATPL for 30k, check what you're not getting for your money compared to School B whose course is 50k. Look at the school's reputation, do a search here for others' opinions of that school. Go visit the school; ask about the facilities, what is provided and what isn't - accommodation, transport, books etc. What do those items cost if they're not provided? If they are, what quality are they? You get the picture...
Value for money is very important, but of course you shouldn't neglect the reputation and reliability of the school and its training. Not because some schools are 'worth' more than others to an employer - on the whole, they're not - but to protect your money! Look for those that offer 'escrow' accounts, or will allow you to 'drip-feed' payment - preferably by credit card, as the card provider is liable, to some extent, for the provision of the product or refund if the supplier fails!
There are many other things to be aware of and look out for, and a search of this site will provide most of the answers - but you'll need a day or two free to do a comprehensive search! I reckon the subject is important enough to devote the time to, so get to it.
Scroggs
Anyway, no matter what has gone before, I entirely agree with your last post. This career isn't for everybody. It isn't even right for all those who'd like to have a shot at it. Even many of those for whom it is the ideal career will fall by the wayside for medical reasons, lack of aptitude, lack of application, lack of money or just plain lack of luck. As you say, you must have a back-up plan - and you should have a point (either in time or cash) beyond which you will not go unless there is a realistic chance of employment.
For some, for whom flying is the only career thay will consider, there is no such point - and good luck to them. But for most, practicalities and responsibilities will intervene. Like all prudent gamblers, you should set a 'stop-loss' point beyond which your own assessment of your potential returns outweighs your investment. Where that point lies depends on your own circumstances, the state of the market, and how much of a risk you're willing to take. That inevitably means that there will be those less deserving, but less risk-averse, who will succeed. That's life! Just be aware that, as in most things, flying training is a gamble and you can get in out of your depth. Hopefully, the market is set to improve and reduce the risk for many of you.
As for Master Yoda's point, it goes to show that you must look very carefully at what you are getting for your money. If School A is offering training to fATPL for 30k, check what you're not getting for your money compared to School B whose course is 50k. Look at the school's reputation, do a search here for others' opinions of that school. Go visit the school; ask about the facilities, what is provided and what isn't - accommodation, transport, books etc. What do those items cost if they're not provided? If they are, what quality are they? You get the picture...
Value for money is very important, but of course you shouldn't neglect the reputation and reliability of the school and its training. Not because some schools are 'worth' more than others to an employer - on the whole, they're not - but to protect your money! Look for those that offer 'escrow' accounts, or will allow you to 'drip-feed' payment - preferably by credit card, as the card provider is liable, to some extent, for the provision of the product or refund if the supplier fails!
There are many other things to be aware of and look out for, and a search of this site will provide most of the answers - but you'll need a day or two free to do a comprehensive search! I reckon the subject is important enough to devote the time to, so get to it.
Scroggs
Like so many consumer decisions I believe the best value is to be had somewhere in the middle of the price range.
I wouldn't advise the very cheapest ATPL course circa £35,000 nor the most expensive circa £75,000. If you can find a nice little professional school, possible close enough to negate accomodation fees, that ends up costing you circa £50,000 then you have probably done well and will be happy with what you bought.
Time spent in reconnaissanse is rarely wasted!
These days it is pretty easy compared to just a few years back. Simply go to the CAA website and look at the full list of FTO's who can do all the training up to IR. Nearly all will have email addresses. Within an hour you should have been able to request brochures and pricelists from up and down the land.
Shortlist and visit.
Pay by instalments on - say - a weekly basis. Don't be afraid to complain but try to rub along. If you need to you can walk at any time.
Good luck, there are some ace smaller schools out there who can do you proud,
WWW
I wouldn't advise the very cheapest ATPL course circa £35,000 nor the most expensive circa £75,000. If you can find a nice little professional school, possible close enough to negate accomodation fees, that ends up costing you circa £50,000 then you have probably done well and will be happy with what you bought.
Time spent in reconnaissanse is rarely wasted!
These days it is pretty easy compared to just a few years back. Simply go to the CAA website and look at the full list of FTO's who can do all the training up to IR. Nearly all will have email addresses. Within an hour you should have been able to request brochures and pricelists from up and down the land.
Shortlist and visit.
Pay by instalments on - say - a weekly basis. Don't be afraid to complain but try to rub along. If you need to you can walk at any time.
Good luck, there are some ace smaller schools out there who can do you proud,
WWW
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Frantic
My replies to your original post were not meant as sniping remarks, just someone elses opinion of the industry. Your post read like it was full of sour grapes, intended or not.
I agreed a couple of times that a career in aviation is not for everyone and certainly not for the feint hearted. Again, your original post read like you had made this risk riddled investment without having your eyes fully open and without really deciding that it was 100% what you wanted to do.
I will repeat a quote from your original post which will answer why I told you about my lifestyle
Perhaps you can now see that your statement is a complete generalisation. Sure, I agree that plenty of marriages have failed, homes have been broken and in some cases lifestyles are not the best, but that is not the case with the majority and plenty of other careers have just as much stress and the associated problems. If you prefer the 9-5 in the City then that is fine, no-one is knocking that, but you made a statement about just how bad a 'pilots' lifestyle is on a pilot bulletin board and are now complaining because a pilot has contradicted your view!
I could not agree more about your comments regarding 'just go for it!' because you are right, just going for it is not enough. You really must want it. More than any other career. Because if you don't want it enough you will be extremely lucky to find a job, especially in the current market. There are too many hurdles in this business for anything less than 100%....and a bit of that 'burning desire!'
I am still interested to hear which airline took you on as an F/O and then wasn't going to pay you for a year as I am genuinely baffled by that one.
I stand by my statement that no airline promotes purely on seniority, that I can do as much hand flying as I want and that I don't find it as boring and repetitive as you seem to think it must be.
So if I caused you offence Frantic I apologise, it was not meant to be offensive, merely to show another another point of view about the pilot lifestyle and airline flying which was somewhat different to the generalised view you displayed of it.
PP
My replies to your original post were not meant as sniping remarks, just someone elses opinion of the industry. Your post read like it was full of sour grapes, intended or not.
I agreed a couple of times that a career in aviation is not for everyone and certainly not for the feint hearted. Again, your original post read like you had made this risk riddled investment without having your eyes fully open and without really deciding that it was 100% what you wanted to do.
I will repeat a quote from your original post which will answer why I told you about my lifestyle
I really can't understand why people are willing to sacrifice their marrige, families, homes etc in order to pursue a career which has such a poor lifestyle.
I could not agree more about your comments regarding 'just go for it!' because you are right, just going for it is not enough. You really must want it. More than any other career. Because if you don't want it enough you will be extremely lucky to find a job, especially in the current market. There are too many hurdles in this business for anything less than 100%....and a bit of that 'burning desire!'
I am still interested to hear which airline took you on as an F/O and then wasn't going to pay you for a year as I am genuinely baffled by that one.
I stand by my statement that no airline promotes purely on seniority, that I can do as much hand flying as I want and that I don't find it as boring and repetitive as you seem to think it must be.
So if I caused you offence Frantic I apologise, it was not meant to be offensive, merely to show another another point of view about the pilot lifestyle and airline flying which was somewhat different to the generalised view you displayed of it.
PP
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Bear also in mind MY that any school that says it can do it for £25 can't.
This is because there are numerous add ons like CAA Fees, 170A Fees (Practice tests), Flight tests, overrunning of course lengths, preferring more a/c time over the large sim time in those prices, personal equipment e.t.c. e.t.c.
A typical profile unless your an ace flyer is that you think you can do it in the minimum hours and then a week before the test it all goes pear shaped and you end up putting the test off and flying more which is v expensive at IR Level. Believe me I have been there and seen and compared stories with many students and that scenario applies to 80% of us. Furthermore I have gleaned that WWW's figure of £35k (Exc MCC Course, but inc everything else from hour 1) is the bare minimum these days.
You may hear the odd person or two that have spent less, but they are extremely limited. Hope that is of help, and welcome back all by the way from me, hope to start posting more again.
This is because there are numerous add ons like CAA Fees, 170A Fees (Practice tests), Flight tests, overrunning of course lengths, preferring more a/c time over the large sim time in those prices, personal equipment e.t.c. e.t.c.
A typical profile unless your an ace flyer is that you think you can do it in the minimum hours and then a week before the test it all goes pear shaped and you end up putting the test off and flying more which is v expensive at IR Level. Believe me I have been there and seen and compared stories with many students and that scenario applies to 80% of us. Furthermore I have gleaned that WWW's figure of £35k (Exc MCC Course, but inc everything else from hour 1) is the bare minimum these days.
You may hear the odd person or two that have spent less, but they are extremely limited. Hope that is of help, and welcome back all by the way from me, hope to start posting more again.
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Madandy
Listen mate, you sound like you've got your head screwed on the right way, with a backup plan in hand in case it all goes Pete Tong, so just do it !
I'm in the same boat as you, 36, well-paid job in IT, except it's as dull as ditchwater ! I've wanted to fly since I was a kid, but due to family and life circumstances, I only now earn enough to pay for it.
I might not get a job, I might blow 35 to 40k, but at least I can say I tried before I have go back to building Windows 2003 servers ! !
I can fall back on my IT skills if it all goes pear-shaped (if they haven't outsourced the UK to India by that time !), but I'm banking on a turnaround in the US economy and an upsurge in pilot demand at a time when a lot of guys and gals will have been put off by the doom and gloom merchants. I appreciate it's a long shot, but it's a shot you and I have got to take!
Good luck m8
I'm in the same boat as you, 36, well-paid job in IT, except it's as dull as ditchwater ! I've wanted to fly since I was a kid, but due to family and life circumstances, I only now earn enough to pay for it.
I might not get a job, I might blow 35 to 40k, but at least I can say I tried before I have go back to building Windows 2003 servers ! !
I can fall back on my IT skills if it all goes pear-shaped (if they haven't outsourced the UK to India by that time !), but I'm banking on a turnaround in the US economy and an upsurge in pilot demand at a time when a lot of guys and gals will have been put off by the doom and gloom merchants. I appreciate it's a long shot, but it's a shot you and I have got to take!
Good luck m8
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Pilot Pete -
it was my understanding that the bean counters at most airlines wanted autopilot on asap as it flies a wee bit straighter and burns less fuel than humans. Are you just one of the lucky ones whose airline doesn't have that policy?
I can do as much hand flying as I want
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Strafer, although airline (and in fact all) professional flying has a largely routine element to it, the idea that the autopilot does everything with very little hand flying allowed is one of the great myths that isn't actually correct.
All the airlines I've had experience with leave the amount of hand flying up to the crew's own good judgement (within the larger confines of the SOP's of course). Obviously it's in the airlines' own best interests to have pilots who are in very good hand flying practice - and in short haul ops they will be.
Long haul presents its own problems, as obviously the amount of hand flying any one individual can do in a month becomes restricted by the sector length, and as a result the number of sectors per month. However, the professionalism and experience of the crews make up for any shortfall in hand flying practice.
All the airlines I've had experience with leave the amount of hand flying up to the crew's own good judgement (within the larger confines of the SOP's of course). Obviously it's in the airlines' own best interests to have pilots who are in very good hand flying practice - and in short haul ops they will be.
Long haul presents its own problems, as obviously the amount of hand flying any one individual can do in a month becomes restricted by the sector length, and as a result the number of sectors per month. However, the professionalism and experience of the crews make up for any shortfall in hand flying practice.
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Strafer
I've never flown in an airline that has stipulated when the autopilot should go in or out and have never heard of ANY airline that does either.
The autopilot doesn't burn less fuel than me. If I'm climbing at ECON speed with the autopilot out I burn the same fuel as I would climbing at ECON speed with it in. The FMC gives me that speed and if I try really hard (
) I can just about manage to fly at that speed!
I do not tend to sit in the cruise with the autopilot out though, that just gets tedious, but I can do it if I choose to.
In the descent, the same applies as with the climb. If I program the FMC it will tell me where my TOD point is and I can then descend with the thrust levers shut A/P in or A/P out, fuel burn is the same. What screws it up are restrictions posed on achieving a constant descent with the levers shut, such as an ATC command to maintain a level. I can play with the speed to a certain extent to keep the levers shut whilst flying level, but if I have to fly level for any length of time I have to put the power up, A/P in or A/P out. If the FMC is kaput I use a rule of thumb to work out my TOD and with experience can end up on a 4 mile final approach with the power coming up for the first time ready for a possible G/A, again A/P in or A/P out. It makes no difference, except to my enjoyment level .
The autopilot just follows an input. The clever stuff that works out the most economical way for the aircraft to operate is the FMC. That will tell you what FL to try and get and when, what speed to fly at and so on. I can follow those instructions just like the autopilot can. So there you have it, no restriction imposed by the airline, as long as I follow the SOPs and of course traffic and weather permitting (the PNFs duties are increased significantly if I fly with the A/P out) so it makes good sense to ensure that he is happy with the workload and on some occassions (POL departure off 32 at Leeds rings a bell) there is a very high workload in the first few miles so it makes sense to brief that you will take the A/P very early.
Another point that comes to mind is about the A/P flying a 'little bit straighter' than a human. I don't know if you fly or not, but anyone who does will tell you that it is a basic flying skill to be able to fly in a straight line and even I don't 'wander' that far off heading as to cause an increase in fuel burn!!!
Regards and happy flying.
PP
I've never flown in an airline that has stipulated when the autopilot should go in or out and have never heard of ANY airline that does either.
The autopilot doesn't burn less fuel than me. If I'm climbing at ECON speed with the autopilot out I burn the same fuel as I would climbing at ECON speed with it in. The FMC gives me that speed and if I try really hard (
) I can just about manage to fly at that speed!I do not tend to sit in the cruise with the autopilot out though, that just gets tedious, but I can do it if I choose to.
In the descent, the same applies as with the climb. If I program the FMC it will tell me where my TOD point is and I can then descend with the thrust levers shut A/P in or A/P out, fuel burn is the same. What screws it up are restrictions posed on achieving a constant descent with the levers shut, such as an ATC command to maintain a level. I can play with the speed to a certain extent to keep the levers shut whilst flying level, but if I have to fly level for any length of time I have to put the power up, A/P in or A/P out. If the FMC is kaput I use a rule of thumb to work out my TOD and with experience can end up on a 4 mile final approach with the power coming up for the first time ready for a possible G/A, again A/P in or A/P out. It makes no difference, except to my enjoyment level
.The autopilot just follows an input. The clever stuff that works out the most economical way for the aircraft to operate is the FMC. That will tell you what FL to try and get and when, what speed to fly at and so on. I can follow those instructions just like the autopilot can. So there you have it, no restriction imposed by the airline, as long as I follow the SOPs and of course traffic and weather permitting (the PNFs duties are increased significantly if I fly with the A/P out) so it makes good sense to ensure that he is happy with the workload and on some occassions (POL departure off 32 at Leeds rings a bell) there is a very high workload in the first few miles so it makes sense to brief that you will take the A/P very early.
Another point that comes to mind is about the A/P flying a 'little bit straighter' than a human. I don't know if you fly or not, but anyone who does will tell you that it is a basic flying skill to be able to fly in a straight line and even I don't 'wander' that far off heading as to cause an increase in fuel burn!!!
Regards and happy flying.
PP