Is it all worth it?
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Strafer,
How would you like to be doing a job working for "x" company and you are happy with the conditions. Then "y" company buys "x" company and totally changes every thing. Rosters non existant, massive disruptions to your day nearly every day, wait months to get your expenses and now have doubt over your very job's existance? If you think roster disruptions and being thought of as a "liability" is fun, then feel free to jump right in.
The job AND the industry has changed significantly over the past 5 years. It ISN'T the industry I joined over 10 years ago.
However, I have spent far too much money requalifying myself in another country and the country I am now in won't recognise my former qualifications.
What some of us are trying to do is give you guys looking in an idea of what it is like RIGHT now. Not what it was like 5 years ago or even 10 years ago.
Some of us are even trying to change the conditions within our own companies at our own personal risk. I am not one that whinges and does nothing.
Know your terms and conditions and don't trade them for any thing. It's important to be flexible but not weak. Big difference.
I know we all dream of flying a nice shiny jet. Check out the turboprop pay and see if you can live on that. That is a reality for many of us.
How would you like to be doing a job working for "x" company and you are happy with the conditions. Then "y" company buys "x" company and totally changes every thing. Rosters non existant, massive disruptions to your day nearly every day, wait months to get your expenses and now have doubt over your very job's existance? If you think roster disruptions and being thought of as a "liability" is fun, then feel free to jump right in.
The job AND the industry has changed significantly over the past 5 years. It ISN'T the industry I joined over 10 years ago.
However, I have spent far too much money requalifying myself in another country and the country I am now in won't recognise my former qualifications.
What some of us are trying to do is give you guys looking in an idea of what it is like RIGHT now. Not what it was like 5 years ago or even 10 years ago.
Some of us are even trying to change the conditions within our own companies at our own personal risk. I am not one that whinges and does nothing.
Know your terms and conditions and don't trade them for any thing. It's important to be flexible but not weak. Big difference.
I know we all dream of flying a nice shiny jet. Check out the turboprop pay and see if you can live on that. That is a reality for many of us.
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Listen to Redsnail - she speaks the truth.
Strafer, you say.....
.........hey Strafer, I can assure you it isn't moaning, merely trying to share experience.
As Redsnail says, the industry has changed so much for the worse over the last ten years, and at an exponential rate in the last five.
You wannabees cannot help but see the job through rose-tinted specs, as the general public do as well. But there's a huge gap between image and reality.
Even with the total dedication and love of flying that one must have to do this job (for decades in my own case), and as a trainer and checker, the realities of how pilots are worked now and the trend for the future will test your love of flying to the limit. And you'll all get older. And sitting with an aeroplane strapped to your arse when you're forty or fifty and the company still treats you like sh*t isn't all it's cracked up to be.
Yes, we can all tell you about wonderful moments in our careers, but the point is, do these fleeting, ephemeral points in time outway the rest of the cr*p?
Obviously for any given wanabee, a lot depends on what else you think you can do with your life. If it's just some mundane office job (in your eyes), then of course I can see the appeal. But there are also plenty of people in flying quite capable of achieving much more than sitting in an office (as an example) - trouble is, once you've done this job for a while, you're committed - you can't take your skills elsewhere. Bottom line, end of story.
So that's it, see the job for what it actually is, and if that's what you want, fine. But beware of its limitations.
Strafer, you say.....
And to all the current pilots who're moaning about their jobs earlier in the thread, why don't you do something else? Then there'd be more jobs for the rest of us.
As Redsnail says, the industry has changed so much for the worse over the last ten years, and at an exponential rate in the last five.
You wannabees cannot help but see the job through rose-tinted specs, as the general public do as well. But there's a huge gap between image and reality.
Even with the total dedication and love of flying that one must have to do this job (for decades in my own case), and as a trainer and checker, the realities of how pilots are worked now and the trend for the future will test your love of flying to the limit. And you'll all get older. And sitting with an aeroplane strapped to your arse when you're forty or fifty and the company still treats you like sh*t isn't all it's cracked up to be.
Yes, we can all tell you about wonderful moments in our careers, but the point is, do these fleeting, ephemeral points in time outway the rest of the cr*p?
Obviously for any given wanabee, a lot depends on what else you think you can do with your life. If it's just some mundane office job (in your eyes), then of course I can see the appeal. But there are also plenty of people in flying quite capable of achieving much more than sitting in an office (as an example) - trouble is, once you've done this job for a while, you're committed - you can't take your skills elsewhere. Bottom line, end of story.
So that's it, see the job for what it actually is, and if that's what you want, fine. But beware of its limitations.
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Well said Maximum.
I think Max has summed it up by saying if the 'reality' is what you want then fine. If that still gives you the buzz then you have the bug.
Many industries are facing the ever onward onslaught of the financial department looking to increase margins year on year. Aviation is only different in that the margins have been squeezed again and again already. The inevitable 'margin' to be squeezed some more is staff terms and conditions. The future is already riddled with ever increasing 'nibbles' at our remuneration packages. It is hard, I accept to see this as a Wannabe, but it is reality and another 'factor' to be drawn into the equation cometh judgement day..................
Those out there who read these pages already know if they are going to get a job or not, we all have our moments of doubt, but the dedicated know that failure is just not a word in their dictionary. Those who constantly doubt are the 'dreamers' who find reality too tough to handle. They become the statistics.
Reality is not a life full of 'riches', to quote Robbie; 'beyond my wildest dreams!'
Reality is disrupted sleep patterns, time away from home, roster disruption and a bunch of people who seem to be working against you at every move............!
If you still love it, you still love it. If you don't, then you probably never really did..................
PP
I think Max has summed it up by saying if the 'reality' is what you want then fine. If that still gives you the buzz then you have the bug.
Many industries are facing the ever onward onslaught of the financial department looking to increase margins year on year. Aviation is only different in that the margins have been squeezed again and again already. The inevitable 'margin' to be squeezed some more is staff terms and conditions. The future is already riddled with ever increasing 'nibbles' at our remuneration packages. It is hard, I accept to see this as a Wannabe, but it is reality and another 'factor' to be drawn into the equation cometh judgement day..................
Those out there who read these pages already know if they are going to get a job or not, we all have our moments of doubt, but the dedicated know that failure is just not a word in their dictionary. Those who constantly doubt are the 'dreamers' who find reality too tough to handle. They become the statistics.
Reality is not a life full of 'riches', to quote Robbie; 'beyond my wildest dreams!'
Reality is disrupted sleep patterns, time away from home, roster disruption and a bunch of people who seem to be working against you at every move............!
If you still love it, you still love it. If you don't, then you probably never really did..................
PP
I'm two and a half years on the line in a 737 (doesn't time fly).
I have the best job of anyone I know. I wouldn't seriously consider doing anything else.
The job is a lot of what you make it. No job is what it used to be in any professional area. There *is* no perfect job though that doesn't stop pilots forever seeking it.
The industry will grow very nicely in the next decade. Demand for pilots will pick up and with it the terms and conditions of employment. The dark years we have experienced since the millenium are now nearly past.
I find more to be cheerful about than miserable and a lot of my friends in other professions cannot say that.
You can get a hell of a kick out of a hand flown visual approach from 10,000ft greasing it down 5 minutes ahead of schedule. Try matching that from inside an office.
Go for it,
WWW
I have the best job of anyone I know. I wouldn't seriously consider doing anything else.
The job is a lot of what you make it. No job is what it used to be in any professional area. There *is* no perfect job though that doesn't stop pilots forever seeking it.
The industry will grow very nicely in the next decade. Demand for pilots will pick up and with it the terms and conditions of employment. The dark years we have experienced since the millenium are now nearly past.
I find more to be cheerful about than miserable and a lot of my friends in other professions cannot say that.
You can get a hell of a kick out of a hand flown visual approach from 10,000ft greasing it down 5 minutes ahead of schedule. Try matching that from inside an office.
Go for it,
WWW
PPRuNe Handmaiden
WWW,
If you wanted to get that nice 737 job right now you probably couldn't unless you PAID for the rating.
That is the point a few of us are trying to make.
At the moment, unless you are lucky or whatever, you want to fly a jet you have to pay for the rating in one form or another.
Would you still be as happy if you were flying a turboprop for half the money or still instructing? Sure, it beats stacking shelves but try explaining to the bank manager that "I know I'm only earning £16K as an FO, but I really like the view. Can I have a loan to buy a house?"
Sure it will change, I certainly hope so, but when?
If you wanted to get that nice 737 job right now you probably couldn't unless you PAID for the rating.
That is the point a few of us are trying to make.
At the moment, unless you are lucky or whatever, you want to fly a jet you have to pay for the rating in one form or another.
Would you still be as happy if you were flying a turboprop for half the money or still instructing? Sure, it beats stacking shelves but try explaining to the bank manager that "I know I'm only earning £16K as an FO, but I really like the view. Can I have a loan to buy a house?"
Sure it will change, I certainly hope so, but when?
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Ref Frantic Flyer's post
Buying a type rating from an airline, costing, say £12k, then getting a job from them, for say £20k+- (ie £15-16k after tax etc) is no more nor less than you working for them for the first 9 months for free, by the time you've paid for the T.R.
On the positive side, I suppose it gets your hours up. The only thing is- when you go to join A.N.Other Airline, will they then ask you to pay for the type rating on their aircraft??
Buying a type rating from an airline, costing, say £12k, then getting a job from them, for say £20k+- (ie £15-16k after tax etc) is no more nor less than you working for them for the first 9 months for free, by the time you've paid for the T.R.
On the positive side, I suppose it gets your hours up. The only thing is- when you go to join A.N.Other Airline, will they then ask you to pay for the type rating on their aircraft??
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To those who replied to my last post...
Possibly some of the original comments came across as more 'moany' than you intended, possibly my mail was more critical than I intended. Nuance is a hard thing to achieve on bulletin boards.
My point was simply that any pilots who're unhappy with their jobs almost certainly have the intelligence and wherewithal to do something else less stressful and better paid. I do at the moment but it's not going to stop me selling my house to pay for my flight training and taking at least a 75% pay cut to get that first f/o job. As to
That's not true in my case, reading these forums for a year and talking to as many people in the industry as I can has, I think, given me a fair idea of the realities of the job. However, some people are wannabes, some are gonnabes. When I'm 70 years old, a-sittin on my porch, I'm at least going to know that I wanted to be a paid pilot and that's what I became.
As another general point - Nostalgia aint what it used to be!
Possibly some of the original comments came across as more 'moany' than you intended, possibly my mail was more critical than I intended. Nuance is a hard thing to achieve on bulletin boards.
My point was simply that any pilots who're unhappy with their jobs almost certainly have the intelligence and wherewithal to do something else less stressful and better paid. I do at the moment but it's not going to stop me selling my house to pay for my flight training and taking at least a 75% pay cut to get that first f/o job. As to
You wannabees cannot help but see the job through rose-tinted specs, as the general public do as well. But there's a huge gap between image and reality.
As another general point - Nostalgia aint what it used to be!
Last edited by strafer; 18th Aug 2003 at 20:44.
There are only two types of people in the world - pilots and non-pilots.
Don't waste your life being the former.
WWW
Don't waste your life being the former.
WWW
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Hello
Dont want to be a sceptic, but i think the main points are these:
1) Why spend 40-50K (minimum) just for a career??? esp. when you'll only earn approx 30k at the end of it (hypothetical), and god knows how many creditors youll then have!
1a) Also when you consider the jobs market (ie 10-12,000 pilots with licenses), and the available jobs, your not even guaranteed a sniff at a job!
2) That post by pilot pete..."the story from start to end" which someone referred to earlier- do you really want hassle like that? ie, running out of cash during training, waiting for lucky breaks (he was lucky!) family disruption etc etc, The BCPL /CPL upgrade course he did no longer exists!
3) Totally disregard people who say "follow the dream or you'll regret it" ,- these people surely are "dreamers".
4) Totally disregard people who say they know people who have got airline jobs with 250 Hours! As far as i know, all the major airlines want at least 800+ hours and type rating, so what r u gonna do with a JAA CPL/IR and 250 Hours? sweep the runway ill bet! then your options are twofold: 1. spend more of your money to get an instuctor rating and struggle to get a job there. or spend more money on flying hours etc to keep your licences current etc, or a type rating (only about 10 grand! and still no job)
6) I was looking into this training business, and it does only seem ot be for the "super rich" .If your six numbers have come up on the Lotto then great, but for the normal professionals thinking of a career change after 10years sat behind a desk in accounts, then i'd think very seriously about borrowing money for such a persuit. could serioulsy backfire.
7) Of the many pilots out of work, and those looking for employment a lot must be very experienced pilots with a lot of total flying hours, this reduces your chances still at interview.
in a nutshell: "despise dreams and respect concrete facts!"
Dont want to be a sceptic, but i think the main points are these:
1) Why spend 40-50K (minimum) just for a career??? esp. when you'll only earn approx 30k at the end of it (hypothetical), and god knows how many creditors youll then have!
1a) Also when you consider the jobs market (ie 10-12,000 pilots with licenses), and the available jobs, your not even guaranteed a sniff at a job!
2) That post by pilot pete..."the story from start to end" which someone referred to earlier- do you really want hassle like that? ie, running out of cash during training, waiting for lucky breaks (he was lucky!) family disruption etc etc, The BCPL /CPL upgrade course he did no longer exists!
3) Totally disregard people who say "follow the dream or you'll regret it" ,- these people surely are "dreamers".
4) Totally disregard people who say they know people who have got airline jobs with 250 Hours! As far as i know, all the major airlines want at least 800+ hours and type rating, so what r u gonna do with a JAA CPL/IR and 250 Hours? sweep the runway ill bet! then your options are twofold: 1. spend more of your money to get an instuctor rating and struggle to get a job there. or spend more money on flying hours etc to keep your licences current etc, or a type rating (only about 10 grand! and still no job)
6) I was looking into this training business, and it does only seem ot be for the "super rich" .If your six numbers have come up on the Lotto then great, but for the normal professionals thinking of a career change after 10years sat behind a desk in accounts, then i'd think very seriously about borrowing money for such a persuit. could serioulsy backfire.
7) Of the many pilots out of work, and those looking for employment a lot must be very experienced pilots with a lot of total flying hours, this reduces your chances still at interview.
in a nutshell: "despise dreams and respect concrete facts!"
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Hustler
You're absolutely right. I've seen the light, and will now persue my other dream- working in an office for my whole life. Sounds bloody brilliant.
Clearly flying's not for you, old chum.
CC
You're absolutely right. I've seen the light, and will now persue my other dream- working in an office for my whole life. Sounds bloody brilliant.
Clearly flying's not for you, old chum.
CC
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Heck Hustler - if we all took your attitude where would all the pilots come from??? I am one of the mythical creatures who got an airline job with 200 hours (thank you CTC!) and, would you believe it, new faces are joining my outfit every month.
Wow, where are they all coming from? Are they growing on trees? Because according to you my man, no-one should spend on gaining a career, no-one wants pilots without 10 zillion hours and a type rating, no-one has a dream to follow...... well, people do, and they are successful.
If you're looking for a job mate, you could help yourself now by regaining a positive attitude and some self-belief. The only person the airlines definitely do not want is a self-pitying sad sack with nothing to offer the company.
Wow, where are they all coming from? Are they growing on trees? Because according to you my man, no-one should spend on gaining a career, no-one wants pilots without 10 zillion hours and a type rating, no-one has a dream to follow...... well, people do, and they are successful.
If you're looking for a job mate, you could help yourself now by regaining a positive attitude and some self-belief. The only person the airlines definitely do not want is a self-pitying sad sack with nothing to offer the company.
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"1) Why spend 40-50K (minimum) just for a career??? esp. when you'll only earn approx 30k at the end of it (hypothetical), and god knows how many creditors youll then have!"
Ever thought of being a doctor or lawyer, the costs (particularly in the USA) are equally as large. Most people see the initial cost of training as an investment into their future, and an investment well worth making. For those who moan about paying large sums for their training, are not wholly commited to a career as a professional pilot.
I have read the whole thread, and agree that the *job* as an airline pilot has changed in the last ten years, my dad will also agree, being a pilot for 25 years. But whatever you think of the job or any job for that matter, it is what you make it, and it is what you put into it. At the end of the day, why should it be different from any other job, in the professional arena?
Ever thought of being a doctor or lawyer, the costs (particularly in the USA) are equally as large. Most people see the initial cost of training as an investment into their future, and an investment well worth making. For those who moan about paying large sums for their training, are not wholly commited to a career as a professional pilot.
I have read the whole thread, and agree that the *job* as an airline pilot has changed in the last ten years, my dad will also agree, being a pilot for 25 years. But whatever you think of the job or any job for that matter, it is what you make it, and it is what you put into it. At the end of the day, why should it be different from any other job, in the professional arena?
Last edited by UKflyer; 29th Aug 2003 at 01:57.
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It's been mentioned that "if you're thinking about the OATS APP then you're looking at a £72000 overall and I personally think that there are much better packages to be had for about half that".....can someone give me some pointers to the alternatives please. I was on the point of sending a deposit cheque to Oxford!
many thanks
many thanks
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VFE's point about the similarities between people's perceptions of music and flying is right on the money! Those who don't do it don't appreciate the amount of work required to succeed, and the amount of relatively boring drudgery and bullsh*t you go through to maintain the career once it's established.
You'll hear the 'it's not what it used to be' line from practitioners of almost any career in the Western world - commercialism (or rather, cost-cutting) and legislation have severly curtailed much of the creativity and fun to be had in most careers. Maximum, Pilot Pete, WWW, Easy Glider and Redsnail are all professional pilots now working in the industry. As you can read, their perspectives vary, but every one of them would have you look at the realities of life as a pilot - without forgetting the still-remaining, if fewer-than-before, rewards!
There are many ways of earning a living. Because you usually have to work for someone else, most of them suck to a greater or lesser extent - and aviation is no exception. As an airline pilot you are a highly trained and regulated resource to be exploited by your employer to his commercial advantage. Hopefully, your end of the deal gets you reasonable money, some time off with the family, and the prospect of better things to come. Unfortunately, it doesn't always work like that, and in all cases, commercial pressures will attempt to squeeze more out of you - maybe, eventually, more than you are willing to give.
There are still plenty of us who thoroughly enjoy our flying, and get well enough treated by our employers - and are prepared to work to improve things further. Few of us are blind to the fact that we might well have been financially better off in another field, but most of us that have been around for a while know that there are always trade-offs. I accept the bullsh*t of the huge commercial organisation I work for in exchange for reasonable money, good company while I'm away, and a fair amount of time at home. Do I get the best deal out there? I doubt it, but I know that I'm doing OK - and I still love what I do.
So, is it worth continuing? Well, that's up to you. Just ditch the rose-tinted specs, and remember that all careers have their downsides.
Now, where's my guitar?
You'll hear the 'it's not what it used to be' line from practitioners of almost any career in the Western world - commercialism (or rather, cost-cutting) and legislation have severly curtailed much of the creativity and fun to be had in most careers. Maximum, Pilot Pete, WWW, Easy Glider and Redsnail are all professional pilots now working in the industry. As you can read, their perspectives vary, but every one of them would have you look at the realities of life as a pilot - without forgetting the still-remaining, if fewer-than-before, rewards!
There are many ways of earning a living. Because you usually have to work for someone else, most of them suck to a greater or lesser extent - and aviation is no exception. As an airline pilot you are a highly trained and regulated resource to be exploited by your employer to his commercial advantage. Hopefully, your end of the deal gets you reasonable money, some time off with the family, and the prospect of better things to come. Unfortunately, it doesn't always work like that, and in all cases, commercial pressures will attempt to squeeze more out of you - maybe, eventually, more than you are willing to give.
There are still plenty of us who thoroughly enjoy our flying, and get well enough treated by our employers - and are prepared to work to improve things further. Few of us are blind to the fact that we might well have been financially better off in another field, but most of us that have been around for a while know that there are always trade-offs. I accept the bullsh*t of the huge commercial organisation I work for in exchange for reasonable money, good company while I'm away, and a fair amount of time at home. Do I get the best deal out there? I doubt it, but I know that I'm doing OK - and I still love what I do.
So, is it worth continuing? Well, that's up to you. Just ditch the rose-tinted specs, and remember that all careers have their downsides.
Now, where's my guitar?
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Jobs & that
What about all the people at Drama School hoping to be the next "big thing" only to end up as Waiters or on the Dole, same risk as Flight School Students, me thinks.
You want the ultimate? Then you gotta be willing to pay the ultimate price.
Every job can be sh**, (unless you're a Page 3 Photographer!)
You want the ultimate? Then you gotta be willing to pay the ultimate price.
Every job can be sh**, (unless you're a Page 3 Photographer!)
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Malc,
I'd hold off on that cheque. It looks like you've not done your research to any level of depth. If you select the integrated route, then Oxford will charge you 72K for around 200 hrs of flying, your ATPLs, IR and JOC/MCC. It's a significant amount of money to spend for what can be done for less by completing the modular route:
PPL/Night = 5K
Hour Building 100 hrs - 6K (in the US)
ATPLs = 5K
CPL/IR = 12K
Multi = 5K
JOC/MCC = 4K
Accom for the year, 6K
Total = 43K + 3K for exams =46K (you might want to add contigency of 10-15%)
Now, you got that extra dosh to:
Flight Instructor Rating = 6K
OR, even a Type Rating = 25K + 46K = 71K
Which at the end of the time, might get you 200 hrs on piston with 100 hrs 737 (using Astreaus). And, you've still got the same licence, but with line experience!!
I reckon its worth you finding out some more details before you post the cheque.
I'd hold off on that cheque. It looks like you've not done your research to any level of depth. If you select the integrated route, then Oxford will charge you 72K for around 200 hrs of flying, your ATPLs, IR and JOC/MCC. It's a significant amount of money to spend for what can be done for less by completing the modular route:
PPL/Night = 5K
Hour Building 100 hrs - 6K (in the US)
ATPLs = 5K
CPL/IR = 12K
Multi = 5K
JOC/MCC = 4K
Accom for the year, 6K
Total = 43K + 3K for exams =46K (you might want to add contigency of 10-15%)
Now, you got that extra dosh to:
Flight Instructor Rating = 6K
OR, even a Type Rating = 25K + 46K = 71K
Which at the end of the time, might get you 200 hrs on piston with 100 hrs 737 (using Astreaus). And, you've still got the same licence, but with line experience!!
I reckon its worth you finding out some more details before you post the cheque.
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Where does 72K for Oxford come from ? Their website says £61.5K, which is bad enough but not as bad as your figure.
Incidently I have heard from some pilots that some airlines (noteably BA) wont touch low hours pilots that are not from an integrated course... fact or fiction ?
Incidently I have heard from some pilots that some airlines (noteably BA) wont touch low hours pilots that are not from an integrated course... fact or fiction ?
Last edited by Epaulettes; 31st Aug 2003 at 03:58.
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Under the pre-JAA system, perhaps. That was known as the CAP509, and meant that someone with 200 hrs could go to the airlines, since it was the only way to do it with those number of hours. With the JAA modular route, the courses are the same, except with one you can do the different parts at different schools - or you could do the entire integrated course as a modular course at Oxford - its all the same.
Even BA take non-integrated guys. Their internal-application for flight crew takes no account of where you went, just the colour of your licence - even with 200 hrs modular. You still have to pass their selection tests.
The 72K comes with their accomodation costs added to the course costs.
Even BA take non-integrated guys. Their internal-application for flight crew takes no account of where you went, just the colour of your licence - even with 200 hrs modular. You still have to pass their selection tests.
The 72K comes with their accomodation costs added to the course costs.
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72K ? sounds like a good deal!!!! ill be straight down there too with my cheque book! what a major con!
30k of that is pure profit i guess!....... no offense but, if you hand over that sort of money u are a serious MUG! a salesmans dream!
Best bet by far, modular, save a fortune and at the end of the day, still have the same licence!
shop around!
30k of that is pure profit i guess!....... no offense but, if you hand over that sort of money u are a serious MUG! a salesmans dream!
Best bet by far, modular, save a fortune and at the end of the day, still have the same licence!
shop around!