Is it all worth it?
Dancing with the devil, going with the flow... it's all a game to me.
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Three of my mates got jobs this year:
Mate One: ATR 72. Accepted into job with about 250 hours.
Mate Two: Airbus A320. Accepted into job with about 250 hours.
Mate Three: Airbus A320. Accepted into job with about 250 hours.
No hope?
Attitude goes a long way I say.
VFE.
Mate One: ATR 72. Accepted into job with about 250 hours.
Mate Two: Airbus A320. Accepted into job with about 250 hours.
Mate Three: Airbus A320. Accepted into job with about 250 hours.
No hope?
Attitude goes a long way I say.
VFE.
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Speak for yourself Hulk. Based on the number of postings, i know who i'd have more belief in.
People can debate till their hearts content. I think its simple. You either want it or you don't. I do. I'm desperate for it. I'm giving up the City Accountant life, as i KNOW the grass is greener on the other side. I may become poorer, I may have to spend time away from home, however, if i enjoy professional/commercial flying as much as i do training in a ****ty Cessna/Piper, then i KNOW that the remaining 41 years of my working life will be a lot more happier than the last 4 years in the Rat Race.
If you want it badly enough you will make it work and eventually it will pay off. Yes there are people who will put you off but ultimately yes, we are all Wannabes/experienced pilots but we're all different people.
People can debate till their hearts content. I think its simple. You either want it or you don't. I do. I'm desperate for it. I'm giving up the City Accountant life, as i KNOW the grass is greener on the other side. I may become poorer, I may have to spend time away from home, however, if i enjoy professional/commercial flying as much as i do training in a ****ty Cessna/Piper, then i KNOW that the remaining 41 years of my working life will be a lot more happier than the last 4 years in the Rat Race.
If you want it badly enough you will make it work and eventually it will pay off. Yes there are people who will put you off but ultimately yes, we are all Wannabes/experienced pilots but we're all different people.
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NC,
right, but I do know one guy who has been hired with 250h on an Airbus...even guys with 3000h do not find jobs actually.the last guy I have met who have been hired by a brit company had 1500h (pre 9/11).
right, but I do know one guy who has been hired with 250h on an Airbus...even guys with 3000h do not find jobs actually.the last guy I have met who have been hired by a brit company had 1500h (pre 9/11).
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Hulk
your experience of the job market is obviously limited. There have been a large number of jobs filled since 9/11 and some layoffs too. There has also been a number of guys hired with 250hrs or less and some from an FI background. Granted not as many as just prior to 9/11, but in no way as bleak as you make out.
It's always been tough and it is tougher right now, but let's keep some balance in this debate. Talk facts not speculation. Just because you don't know anyone who has been hired doesn't mean that someone who knows three is a liar................
PP
your experience of the job market is obviously limited. There have been a large number of jobs filled since 9/11 and some layoffs too. There has also been a number of guys hired with 250hrs or less and some from an FI background. Granted not as many as just prior to 9/11, but in no way as bleak as you make out.
It's always been tough and it is tougher right now, but let's keep some balance in this debate. Talk facts not speculation. Just because you don't know anyone who has been hired doesn't mean that someone who knows three is a liar................
PP
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Hulk - You're a wind up merchant !!
Yes, I'm talking about you HULK !!
I don't normally waste my time responding to the likes of people like you ...... and I feel sure that many others have twigged that you only appear to be posting to be confrontational or whatever kick it is you seem to be getting out of it all !! I notice that you've had many postings on different forums recently, for instance you've recently posted something on Wannabees about whether Mod 1 or 2 of Bristol GS is the harder etc and how you feel most of it is easy on Mod 1 ...... well, I've not even bothered looking at your profile, giving you the benefit of doubt and assuming that the posting is genuine, then you're obvioulsy looking at obtaining an JAA ATPL/fATPL. That said, then your posting to "Is it all worth it?" is so negative for someone who should be thinking so positively at this time ..... "can take around 10 years before to sit in an airline aircraft with a basic salary.
minimum requirement to apply are 1500h, 200 multi and some jet ot turbine." ......... and "VFE we do not believe you, I know 20-30 pilots with less 500h, no one have found a job since the 9/11." .....
HULK, I'd say, why don't you pack it all in now and do us all a favour, but as I've said, it's obvioulsy a wind up !! Feel free to shoot me down in flames hulk, but I won't be responding, I've already wasted enough valuable time posting this trash !! You are the weakest link - goodbye !!
VFE ....... "Attitude goes a long way I say." .... well said !!
Ladies and Gents ..... the Goose has spoken
I don't normally waste my time responding to the likes of people like you ...... and I feel sure that many others have twigged that you only appear to be posting to be confrontational or whatever kick it is you seem to be getting out of it all !! I notice that you've had many postings on different forums recently, for instance you've recently posted something on Wannabees about whether Mod 1 or 2 of Bristol GS is the harder etc and how you feel most of it is easy on Mod 1 ...... well, I've not even bothered looking at your profile, giving you the benefit of doubt and assuming that the posting is genuine, then you're obvioulsy looking at obtaining an JAA ATPL/fATPL. That said, then your posting to "Is it all worth it?" is so negative for someone who should be thinking so positively at this time ..... "can take around 10 years before to sit in an airline aircraft with a basic salary.
minimum requirement to apply are 1500h, 200 multi and some jet ot turbine." ......... and "VFE we do not believe you, I know 20-30 pilots with less 500h, no one have found a job since the 9/11." .....
HULK, I'd say, why don't you pack it all in now and do us all a favour, but as I've said, it's obvioulsy a wind up !! Feel free to shoot me down in flames hulk, but I won't be responding, I've already wasted enough valuable time posting this trash !! You are the weakest link - goodbye !!
VFE ....... "Attitude goes a long way I say." .... well said !!
Ladies and Gents ..... the Goose has spoken
Why do it if it's not fun?
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A few random thoughts to add to the pot:
1) If you don't try, you'll always regret not trying.
2) If you don't want it enough, you'll loose out to those who do.
3) Getting an airline job with low hours is nearly, but not quite, impossible - but see number 2 above.
4) I will consider it worth it even if I never get a job flying anything bigger than a Cessna Caravan. In fact, I'd probably prefer to fly smaller stuff if only I could afford to live on the salary for any length of time, but maybe that's just me.
5) I will consider it worth it even if I never get a flying job at all. With the exception of the ATPL exams, I've enjoyed all of my training so far, and I expect I'll enjoy the rest of it too. Besides which, see 1 above.
FFF
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1) If you don't try, you'll always regret not trying.
2) If you don't want it enough, you'll loose out to those who do.
3) Getting an airline job with low hours is nearly, but not quite, impossible - but see number 2 above.
4) I will consider it worth it even if I never get a job flying anything bigger than a Cessna Caravan. In fact, I'd probably prefer to fly smaller stuff if only I could afford to live on the salary for any length of time, but maybe that's just me.
5) I will consider it worth it even if I never get a flying job at all. With the exception of the ATPL exams, I've enjoyed all of my training so far, and I expect I'll enjoy the rest of it too. Besides which, see 1 above.
FFF
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Couldn´t agree more FlyingForFun,
Really enjoying the training here in Jerez, especially this IR stuff which I just started a couple of weeks ago. Luckily the ATPL exams are behind me
Hulk must have the misfortune to know the least lucky low hours guys around. Out of Jerez I could name about 25% of the grads of the last 6 months who are now flying (or about to: busy type rating) jets or turbo props. Sure its a ****e percentage but it´s not zero. Others are busting their ass looking, getting a few hours instructing, spending time in jet sims to keep current, one I know of is meat-bombing (aka parachute drops - why do people want to jump out of a/c??!!)
Really enjoying the training here in Jerez, especially this IR stuff which I just started a couple of weeks ago. Luckily the ATPL exams are behind me
Hulk must have the misfortune to know the least lucky low hours guys around. Out of Jerez I could name about 25% of the grads of the last 6 months who are now flying (or about to: busy type rating) jets or turbo props. Sure its a ****e percentage but it´s not zero. Others are busting their ass looking, getting a few hours instructing, spending time in jet sims to keep current, one I know of is meat-bombing (aka parachute drops - why do people want to jump out of a/c??!!)
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I think the best post on this well beaten subject was posted by Pilot Pete a few months back. I will see can I find it and link it here.
Pete......If you have a link, post it again. It displayed the rough with the even rougher road to the LHS. If you could do what PP did, then you will make it.....in fact you would probably make it into NASA!!!! It was an inspirational read.
Ncusack
Found it:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...&threadid=6911
It'll take a while but it's a cracker!
Ncusack
Pete......If you have a link, post it again. It displayed the rough with the even rougher road to the LHS. If you could do what PP did, then you will make it.....in fact you would probably make it into NASA!!!! It was an inspirational read.
Ncusack
Found it:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...&threadid=6911
It'll take a while but it's a cracker!
Ncusack
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VFE,
In view of the fact that all your mates seem to get flying jobs with relatively low hours, I was wondering if I could be one of your friends, mate
On a slightly different tack, I think job fulfillment is all relative, if you have experienced nothing else all your life then the grass is always going to look greener elsewhere.
If your a commercial pilot slagging off your own occupation, thats fair enough but you're never going to convince a Wannabe that the lifestyle sucks and the pays no good. And what are you comparing it too a lawyer? a doctor? The're not really in the same ball park are they? How about a policeman, teacher, traffic warden or bus driver is this more fulfilling.
I've worked for the same engineering company for over 2O years I get a reasonable salary, 6 weeks of annual leave, flexi time, foreign travel staying in nice hotels, a guaranteed pension, retirement at 60, I finish work at 5 every day and I'm home by 10 past. Whats more when I travel I continue to earn the same hourly rate. Does this sound good to you. Because I hate it, whats more I hate myself for not trying to pursue a flying career a long time ago.
have a nice day!
MJR
In view of the fact that all your mates seem to get flying jobs with relatively low hours, I was wondering if I could be one of your friends, mate
On a slightly different tack, I think job fulfillment is all relative, if you have experienced nothing else all your life then the grass is always going to look greener elsewhere.
If your a commercial pilot slagging off your own occupation, thats fair enough but you're never going to convince a Wannabe that the lifestyle sucks and the pays no good. And what are you comparing it too a lawyer? a doctor? The're not really in the same ball park are they? How about a policeman, teacher, traffic warden or bus driver is this more fulfilling.
I've worked for the same engineering company for over 2O years I get a reasonable salary, 6 weeks of annual leave, flexi time, foreign travel staying in nice hotels, a guaranteed pension, retirement at 60, I finish work at 5 every day and I'm home by 10 past. Whats more when I travel I continue to earn the same hourly rate. Does this sound good to you. Because I hate it, whats more I hate myself for not trying to pursue a flying career a long time ago.
have a nice day!
MJR
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I strongly believe that anyone doing an ATPL or wanting to do one should go into it with their eyes fully open.
After 10-15 years in the industry it is highly likely that it is going to be just another job. Relationships and friendships are bound to suffer, you have to work odd hours, weekends (so that party/that drink may have to be put off ETC).
Needless to say I still wanna do it, I know it is going to be one hell of a struggle and finally I am saving now (after paying off student debts). I personally can't stand my job, I sit there 9-5:30 bored senseless, I hate the routine and I hate office life. I was happier working shifts in my last position even if it wasn't paid as well. There is nothing else I want to do, so I have to go for it. I don't have a partner (just split up with my girlfriend but she knew about my desire to fly for a living and was fully aware that it was likely that we wouldn't have survived once I started training). Sept 11th was a nightmare for most industries. I still know friends from Uni that haven't got full time jobs and we graduated 2 years ago. I know of one who got onto Barclay's grad scheme, starting salary was high and was made redundant 6 months later and now can't get another job. His dream of working in Banking is in tatters as well. Wages have been kept lower by the economic climate, we recently advertised for a position and had over 500 applicants many with over 10 years experience and the money was fairly low!, it is tough out there everywhere.
Unfortunately the airline industry has a massive barrier to entry in obtaining the license. Other careers do as well to some degree, but it genuinely doesn't peek over 10k. One of the major problems is that financial institutions IMO, don't fully understand the requirements of wannabe pilots, you can walk into most banks and get financial advise about law courses, accountancy training but it seems that it isn't always stretched for pilots.
The governments attitude with VAT on flight training is also disgusting, how they can't call an ATPL course vocational I will never know, but lots of things needs to be changed or there could be a major shortage in years to come.
Out of interest my father is a Dr, ex surgeon and the only advice he has ever given me is to never go into the medical profession and then rants about how it has changed, the NHS etc, and how he should have done law, accountancy instead. Not everyone is currently happy with their lot, the grass always seems greener on the other side. But I do understand the points of those that have been in the industry for 15 years plus, many sacrifices have probably been made over the years, and they just aren't as happy as they once were.
Best of luck everyone
Sagey
After 10-15 years in the industry it is highly likely that it is going to be just another job. Relationships and friendships are bound to suffer, you have to work odd hours, weekends (so that party/that drink may have to be put off ETC).
Needless to say I still wanna do it, I know it is going to be one hell of a struggle and finally I am saving now (after paying off student debts). I personally can't stand my job, I sit there 9-5:30 bored senseless, I hate the routine and I hate office life. I was happier working shifts in my last position even if it wasn't paid as well. There is nothing else I want to do, so I have to go for it. I don't have a partner (just split up with my girlfriend but she knew about my desire to fly for a living and was fully aware that it was likely that we wouldn't have survived once I started training). Sept 11th was a nightmare for most industries. I still know friends from Uni that haven't got full time jobs and we graduated 2 years ago. I know of one who got onto Barclay's grad scheme, starting salary was high and was made redundant 6 months later and now can't get another job. His dream of working in Banking is in tatters as well. Wages have been kept lower by the economic climate, we recently advertised for a position and had over 500 applicants many with over 10 years experience and the money was fairly low!, it is tough out there everywhere.
Unfortunately the airline industry has a massive barrier to entry in obtaining the license. Other careers do as well to some degree, but it genuinely doesn't peek over 10k. One of the major problems is that financial institutions IMO, don't fully understand the requirements of wannabe pilots, you can walk into most banks and get financial advise about law courses, accountancy training but it seems that it isn't always stretched for pilots.
The governments attitude with VAT on flight training is also disgusting, how they can't call an ATPL course vocational I will never know, but lots of things needs to be changed or there could be a major shortage in years to come.
Out of interest my father is a Dr, ex surgeon and the only advice he has ever given me is to never go into the medical profession and then rants about how it has changed, the NHS etc, and how he should have done law, accountancy instead. Not everyone is currently happy with their lot, the grass always seems greener on the other side. But I do understand the points of those that have been in the industry for 15 years plus, many sacrifices have probably been made over the years, and they just aren't as happy as they once were.
Best of luck everyone
Sagey
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IS IT ALL WORTH IT ?
Well, I'd have to say no, not for me, anyway. I did my training in the States, did a little instruction over there and then returned to the UK to convert to a BCPL and then did a BCPL to CPL upgrade course. I then spent about 2 years looking for my 1st job, while doing any job going to keep a roof over my head and pay off my debts. When I found my first flying job as a First Officer I was obviously delighted. The 1st six months I spent working just at the weekends (unpaid) and after six months I was then offered a permanent position. Having spent £25,000 on training and worked very hard to pass all my exams and holding a professional qualification (CPL/IR Frozen ATPL) I expected to earn a salary, however, I had yet to learn that in the perculiar world of aviation, normal rules do not apply. I was to be employed by this company, however I was not going to be paid for the first year ! I know many of you would probably jump at a chance like this, and I know that many people at this airline did work unpaid, however this was something that I could not afford or was prepared to do.
Fortunatley, at around the same time I was offered a job in London with an Investment Mngt company, where I have been for 5 years now. For my first year working for this company I continued to apply for other flying jobs but could find nothing. It was around this this that I decided to give up flying and pursue a career in the City and I have no regrets. I now have a great job, earn a good salary and have managed to buy a flat in London. If I'd stayed in Flying, God knows where I would be now ? Yes, I work 9 to 5, but this means I get up at a reasonable hour and get home every night. I also have every weekend and Bank Holiday free to do as I wish. And yes I spend most of the day sitting at a desk with a computer screen infront of me, speaking on the phone, but the work is varied, I learn something new everyday and it lets me be somewhat creative. As opposed to flying a modern aircraft where I would be monitoring a computer flight system, making the occasional radio call and doing everything by the book. I am also promoted by virtue of how well I do my job and not merely by seniority.
I really can't understand why people are willing to sacrifice their marrige, families, homes etc in order to pursue a career which has such a poor lifestyle. Perhaps if you have a job you really hate, but there are many more interesting and rewarding careers out there than being a pilot. I guess you just have to be really crazy about flying, something which I guess I was not. I did ofcourse enjoy the training tremendously and I still fly for pleasure at the weekends which is all I need in terms of my aviation fix.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think flying is a bad career to have, it just wasn't for me. Just make sure that it is really what you want to. £50,000 or whatever it costs now is a hell of alot of money to spend with no guarantee of a job at the end. If you really love flying why not think about buying a share in an aircraft and fly at the weekends. Or fly off to the States for a 2 week flying holiday every year, you'd get alot of holidays for £50 G. You'll probably do more hands on flying than you ever would during a career as a pilot.
Good luck, whatever you do . If you already fallen in love with flying, then none of my negative comments will have any effect on you, I'm just trying to give another point of view, rather than the go for it at all costs, live your dreams, what if, etc...
Well, I'd have to say no, not for me, anyway. I did my training in the States, did a little instruction over there and then returned to the UK to convert to a BCPL and then did a BCPL to CPL upgrade course. I then spent about 2 years looking for my 1st job, while doing any job going to keep a roof over my head and pay off my debts. When I found my first flying job as a First Officer I was obviously delighted. The 1st six months I spent working just at the weekends (unpaid) and after six months I was then offered a permanent position. Having spent £25,000 on training and worked very hard to pass all my exams and holding a professional qualification (CPL/IR Frozen ATPL) I expected to earn a salary, however, I had yet to learn that in the perculiar world of aviation, normal rules do not apply. I was to be employed by this company, however I was not going to be paid for the first year ! I know many of you would probably jump at a chance like this, and I know that many people at this airline did work unpaid, however this was something that I could not afford or was prepared to do.
Fortunatley, at around the same time I was offered a job in London with an Investment Mngt company, where I have been for 5 years now. For my first year working for this company I continued to apply for other flying jobs but could find nothing. It was around this this that I decided to give up flying and pursue a career in the City and I have no regrets. I now have a great job, earn a good salary and have managed to buy a flat in London. If I'd stayed in Flying, God knows where I would be now ? Yes, I work 9 to 5, but this means I get up at a reasonable hour and get home every night. I also have every weekend and Bank Holiday free to do as I wish. And yes I spend most of the day sitting at a desk with a computer screen infront of me, speaking on the phone, but the work is varied, I learn something new everyday and it lets me be somewhat creative. As opposed to flying a modern aircraft where I would be monitoring a computer flight system, making the occasional radio call and doing everything by the book. I am also promoted by virtue of how well I do my job and not merely by seniority.
I really can't understand why people are willing to sacrifice their marrige, families, homes etc in order to pursue a career which has such a poor lifestyle. Perhaps if you have a job you really hate, but there are many more interesting and rewarding careers out there than being a pilot. I guess you just have to be really crazy about flying, something which I guess I was not. I did ofcourse enjoy the training tremendously and I still fly for pleasure at the weekends which is all I need in terms of my aviation fix.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think flying is a bad career to have, it just wasn't for me. Just make sure that it is really what you want to. £50,000 or whatever it costs now is a hell of alot of money to spend with no guarantee of a job at the end. If you really love flying why not think about buying a share in an aircraft and fly at the weekends. Or fly off to the States for a 2 week flying holiday every year, you'd get alot of holidays for £50 G. You'll probably do more hands on flying than you ever would during a career as a pilot.
Good luck, whatever you do . If you already fallen in love with flying, then none of my negative comments will have any effect on you, I'm just trying to give another point of view, rather than the go for it at all costs, live your dreams, what if, etc...
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I was to be employed by this company, however I was not going to be paid for the first year
an Investment Mngt company, where I have been for 5 years now. For my first year working for this company I continued to apply for other flying jobs but could find nothing.
I am also promoted by virtue of how well I do my job and not merely by seniority.
I really can't understand why people are willing to sacrifice their marrige, families, homes etc in order to pursue a career which has such a poor lifestyle.
And, we didn't ALL sacrifice marriages, families and homes to pursue this career. My personal career path lead to me getting married, having three kids, being put through the wringer after 9/11 and emerging the other side a better, more rounded, happier individual who has moved up the property ladder and loves going to work. Oh, my social life is just fine too thanks.
You'll probably do more hands on flying than you ever would during a career as a pilot.
And yes I spend most of the day sitting at a desk with a computer screen infront of me, speaking on the phone, but the work is varied, I learn something new everyday and it lets me be somewhat creative. As opposed to flying a modern aircraft where I would be monitoring a computer flight system, making the occasional radio call and doing everything by the book.
I did ofcourse enjoy the training tremendously and I still fly for pleasure at the weekends which is all I need in terms of my aviation fix.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think flying is a bad career to have, it just wasn't for me. Just make sure that it is really what you want to.
Don't get me wrong, it's not for everyone and there are times on the way back from somewhere like Luxor that you really think you would rather be somewhere else, but on the whole I had that feeling a heck of a lot more of the time in my previous career.
FranticFlyer, I'm sorry but your account smacks of sour grapes.
PP
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The word desperate is the key. If that's how you feel, you have to try but don't destroy yourself in the process - there's no rush with the market the way it is right now. Can you keep working part-time and do the training part time? Be strict with yourself, maybe OATS does have some advantages (often debated), but don't pay the industry's premium prices with 100% borrowed money - that's crazy. (Having said that, I think their full time ground school is the business, I'd go there just for the ground school bit).
I love flying (just fATPL right now) but I absolutely would not get that far into debt to do it. I'd set myself a very strict rule not to borrow more than 50% of the money needed to pay for training - say 25k (that's still a decent deposit on a house in most parts of the country). So what if it takes a little longer.
I'd also try (and I mean really hard) to get into the CTC McAlpine - ab-initio training scheme as there's a job already waiting at the end of it.
Good luck, let us know what you decide!
p.s. Frantic Flyer - I used to work in the City and then on Wall St myself (Goldman Sachs). What's all that about 9-5? Is that one of those part-time paternity benefit positions I've heard about???
I love flying (just fATPL right now) but I absolutely would not get that far into debt to do it. I'd set myself a very strict rule not to borrow more than 50% of the money needed to pay for training - say 25k (that's still a decent deposit on a house in most parts of the country). So what if it takes a little longer.
I'd also try (and I mean really hard) to get into the CTC McAlpine - ab-initio training scheme as there's a job already waiting at the end of it.
Good luck, let us know what you decide!
p.s. Frantic Flyer - I used to work in the City and then on Wall St myself (Goldman Sachs). What's all that about 9-5? Is that one of those part-time paternity benefit positions I've heard about???
Last edited by buttline; 15th Aug 2003 at 11:50.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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FranticFlyer,
Interesting viewpoint - different to my own, which is closer to Pilot Pete's, but interesting nonetheless.
But I'm curious. Why does someone who gave up any thoughts of commercial flying 4 years ago suddenly register on a forum for professional pilots, and make his first post in none other than the Wannabes forum?
Please don't get me wrong - I'm not suggesting that you're not welcome or anything like that, because you are. It just seems strange that someone in your position would be interested in the Wannabes forum at all. I'd expect you to spend more time in Private Flying.
FFF
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Interesting viewpoint - different to my own, which is closer to Pilot Pete's, but interesting nonetheless.
But I'm curious. Why does someone who gave up any thoughts of commercial flying 4 years ago suddenly register on a forum for professional pilots, and make his first post in none other than the Wannabes forum?
Please don't get me wrong - I'm not suggesting that you're not welcome or anything like that, because you are. It just seems strange that someone in your position would be interested in the Wannabes forum at all. I'd expect you to spend more time in Private Flying.
FFF
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FranticFlyer - if you post is true, then you didn't want it enough.
And to all the current pilots who're moaning about their jobs earlier in the thread, why don't you do something else? Then there'd be more jobs for the rest of us.
And on a general point - it's the things you don't do that you regret when you get old.
And to all the current pilots who're moaning about their jobs earlier in the thread, why don't you do something else? Then there'd be more jobs for the rest of us.
And on a general point - it's the things you don't do that you regret when you get old.