Emirates vs. Air Canada

[nolimitholdem]

I realize this quote is from a few days back, but some of us have to pull our weight and get our 90+ hours of flying in...I do have to respond to this Oblaaspop comment though:

Please answer my basic question: Why should ANY government dictate how its citizens should spend their money?

What a nonsensical question. Of course any government by definition controls a great deal of how its citizens money is spent. In Canada, at least there is some modicum of control over the process, when the average "Joe Public" is regularly given a chance to remove the government if it spends their money in ways they disagree with.

How did you vote in the last UAE election? Did you write outraged letters to Sheik Mo when they raised the price of petrol and implemented Salik, dictating to YOU how you should spend your money? Are you equally upset that the Etisalat long distance rates are so high? Can you not see the irony of railing against government control when you live in a totalitarian regime, largely populated by monopolist corporations? Or are you just choosing to ignore it because for you, personally, it has resulted in a massive net financial advantage?

Your position makes no logical sense. So now you're a consumer advocate for choice for the poor suffering Canadian airline passenger, struggling to get to Dubai? Wow. Thanks, but I think that's a bit of a champion in need of a cause, not the other way around.

LOL...incidentally, I always try to travel back home to Canada through Europe on a western carrier on the second leg, but usually EK puts me on one of their flights as it is cheaper for them. So if Canada shuts EK out of their airspace, it would actually benefit me as I would obtain my preference, contrary to your frustrated wish to make my ALT "hell". Sorry.

[Desertbannanas]

Contacted said:

"I don't believe anyone (not me, not you, not the government) should decide the supply side. Capacity constraints and passenger/cargo demand should be the deciding factor."

This is why you are on the other and wrong side of the argrument Contacted!

There is a reason we have governments. Every country competes for the global Aviation business. Thats right COMPETES. Every country has a right to what degree it accepts free trade, due to the unilateral differences between countries. Different countries and thereby different economies will not always be able to compete equally or fairly than the other. This is why we have borders, and duties and taxes.
This is why your quoted paper said "gradually". As markets become LINEAR, then barriers can be dropped.

Your idea of free market nirvana does not exist, nor is it practical in the real world.

Perhaps we should drop the borders so the people can cross them without restrictions?? For what reason do we have "restrictions" at borders? ...... ???? Right! Now your getting it...for the same reasons.

Im sorry your working so hard, maybe thats part of the problem from where your working. You need better labor protections! But didnt' you know that before you signed up? This is part of the imbalance. Part of why Emirates has a cost advantage.

You know the Chinese work even harder than you. In your market nirvana, they would eventually replace even you guys if they were allowed the access you want to Canada, into the UAE. Food for thought.

[grizzled]

Contacted...

Thanks for that.

And thanks for your latest post -- it's excllent, and exactly the sort of reasoned comment that can be hard to find on these online fora.

cheers,
grizz

[Desertbannanas]

Patting yourself on the back Griz?

Poppycock! Contact is out to lunch on reality and apparently so are you if your not the same person.

Thank goodness the great country of Canada can see right through you and the big UAE profit machine.

Do us all a favor and get yourself educated how the real world works. Go take an evening class on foreign policy and international trade.

Good work Ottawa!

[Oblaaspop]

Is it just me, or does anyone else think Desert is coming across as a thick uneducated tw@t?

Despite all the diatribe he has written, not one post acknowledges that there may be another angle to the story. At least Griz, Willie and others admit this despite holding true to their beliefs. This, I respect.

Someone who can't even answer a simple question or back up his own cr@p with evidence is certainly not someone I could ever dream of respecting.

Little man, crawl back under your rock! Have you even been to the UAE? Or anywhere else outside North America for that matter? I doubt you even hold a passport with your insular little attitude...... OPEN YOUR EYES FOOL, its a big world out there (which unlike you I have actually been to)

[clunckdriver]

Obaaspop, In one of your posts you state you are a Brit, so what gives you the right to comment on the internal affairs of of Canada? You might recall that not too long ago we booted your ambasador out for just this! In the mean time I have spent a fair bit of time in the Sand Pit, and unlike most can make myself understood in at least one dialect so I feel I have a fair grasp of the situation, a grasp not founded on needing a job in the region which seems to be the motivation of most promoting Emirates. So, try to understand that your opinions carry no weight in Canada, if you want to you could try to fix the UK, or rather whats left of a once great nation, you could start by investing your cash there, rather than the tax havens used by most in the Arab world.{ Some free advice, if you do retire here dont buy a car with Lucas electrics!}

[Willie Everlearn]

Just a couple of points of clarification for those who seem to think Transport Canada plays a big role in all of this,

1) Landing Rights and frequency of service is NOT decided or implemented by Transport Canada.

2) NavCanada, a private company, is the 'contracted' Air Traffic Control services provider in Canada, NOT Transport Canada.

Willie

[fatbus]

Worth mentioning as well is that EK has no interest in moving Canadians between YYZ and DXB all they want is Sub Continent traffic and taking that traffic away from LH( star alliance ). There realy is not that much Canadian traffic all year. EK makes it money on 85% of all pax carried transit DXB, so on average 50-75 per 380 and not all those are Canadians

[Oblaaspop]

Clunk, you make a fair point. Yes I am a Brit, but sadly I stopped feeling the need to wave the Union Jack (not even allowed to call it that any more!) a very long time ago. The UK is screwed, pure and simple which is why I chose to escape.

Unless I'm forced, I have absolutely no intention of ever going back unless Jeremy Clarkson becomes Prime Minister!

I would hate to see Canada go down the same route as the 'Nanny State' that is the UK........ Most (not all) Expat Brits are of the same opinion. Now, my interest wrt Canada is that I would genuinely like to retire over there and the thought of being forced to use AC and not be able to take advantage of my retirement travel concessions

Seriously though, I hold no great loyalty to EK (apart from the fact they pay my wages), but I'm fed up of non-truths being spouted about 'uneven playing fields', 'government subsidies' etc etc when all the while the very Airline that is saying these things is the very Airline that is taking advantage of the very things they slate.......... How 'kin hypocritical is that? Why can't they just be honest and say that AC is a poorly run business on the brink and need all the protection the government can give? I could accept that because of the honesty, what I have trouble accepting are out and out lies!

I may well lose my patience with some of the posters on this forum and hit hard on occasions with a swift blow of my keyboard (a function of getting old and grouchy I suppose!), but one thing I don't think I can be accused of is not using fact to back up my arguments (I'm sure someone will correct me on that one with some obscure minor point that has no relevance to the main point), unlike others on here.

I hope this sheds some light on my focus? If not, then I'm sorry, but everyone is entitled to an opinion regardless of from where they come from. What gets me though is there are many on here that slag the UAE and its policies etc having never even been there (or even bothered to do sensible research) and just jump on a bandwagon.... The amount of N Americans that ask me whether I wear a flack jacket to protect me from all the AK47 fire when I go to the shops, just isn't funny! It appears some Canadians have the same silly view of the place, which saddens me, I had you guys down as being a bit more intelligent than your neighbours to the south. It appears that in some cases I was clearly wrong!

[Willie Everlearn]

It would be very easy to support either side of this argument.

Should EK or EY not take advantage of their advantages?
Absolutely! What airline wouldn’t?

Sir King took liberties with Sir Richard. Which didn’t work out so well.
BA and AA aligned themselves to deal with additional services and slots that were of mutual benefit. Leading to additional anger and frustration within the EU airline community.
O’Leary shakes the establishment tree almost daily. (what can I say?)
Yikes, we’ve even got Star Alliance, One World, SkyTeam, and the like, ganging up on their competition. (can it be?)

Beating the system is what it’s all about. It’s nothing personal, its business.
Globalization is a reality. A business reality.
What remains to be seen with regard to globalization though, is whether or not it works? IMHO the airline business is having a hard time with it. Time will tell and in my estimation as long as their remains 'national interests', it won’t completely work or succeed. Look at the EU. I suppose it works but is it a success?

I don’t blame EK for trying. But, why shouldn’t Canada respond in kind?
Politically, I mean. With what's right for our globalization vision. (and it isn't the same as EKs I can assure you)

It should be obvious that I’ve taken sides in this dispute and firmly believe my government has done the sensible thing which unfortunately for EK, just happens NOT to be in their interests nor does it suit their world airline domination vision.


Now if they would only suspend the landing rights and over flights of UAE aircraft for the next 10 months or so, I’d say we would have conveyed our annoyance with a ‘Mouse that Roared’.

oblasspop

I appreciate your 'confession'. Despite all this debate and politico, you'd enjoy Canada in retirement. There's always access through JFK so don't give it up.

I for one have always found the Brits very good at giving Canadians 'sound advice' with regards to the mistakes they've made along the way which has lead to the errosion of a once Great Britain, which it may now only be a great nation. (Not that Canada is any gem either)
Britain is part of our heritage and our lineage. For Canada would do well to avoid repeating the mistakes of our forefathers. Unfortunately, not many over here are paying attention.

Willie

[Desertbannanas]

LOL... yet another entertaining rant by the "blow up doll" Oblasspop. Or is that "BLOW UP- doll"? When are you going to grow up little girl? Jeesh... I thought the Brits were tough... not like you... whining little girl who doesn't get her way.

Please please please say something intelligent for once! But thank you for revealing the truth as to why you are advocating more flight for UAE to Canada... for your own selfish retirment purposes:

"Now, my interest wrt Canada is that I would genuinely like to retire over there and the thought of being forced to use AC and not be able to take advantage of my retirement travel concessions"


By the way... I have worked in the UAE, my friend, as well as Asia. And I have taking Foreign policy in school, so I do know a bit more than you about the intricacies of foreign policy and trade. I just happen to strongly support my Home country and I am disgusted by the nonsense that goes on in the UAE. We are not interested in you retiring in our country so you can avoid paying taxes in your own. You are just another one of those shallow people who put your own well-being first on issues instead of the greater good. I believe in the fair and equal representation of business, and EK/EY does not come to the table fairly. If you were intelligent enough to see the multi levels of this issue, and you were educated, you would see it my way as does the system and thankfully, the people in power, who probably took the some the same classes I did.

And what are you talking about N Americans thinking its a warzone in the UAE??? Who do you hang out with? Foolish girl... I worked there for 5 years and everyone knew of UAE's rise..and that it was generally safe. (Traffic driving excluded).

Aww..but don't get upset Oblasspop. Your still not getting what you want, becuase thankfully the people in power are more intelligent than you. YOu must have gotten the short end of the British gene pool.

[Desertbannanas]

By they way... I don't believe anyone is saying Air Canada is a fantastically run business Oblasspop. It is not. But then there are limits to what it can do in comparison to EK/EY.It cannot be competitive to EK/EY so it needs some degree of protection. But that is my point, these are teh protections that any country sets out when these trade imbalances exist. Otherwise, EK will take over too much of AC's revenue. AC has its problems that is for sure... however they are problems from some peoples perspective...and are a savior to other people. These things that cause the imbalance between the countries and by default companies, are the reasons that make Canada the great country it is... therby make it a great place to retire. But Air Canada is trying to do its best within the framework that is required by the gov't. You say you want to retire to Canada Oblasspop? Why? Because if Canada allowed the free access you advocate, that great country you want to spend your golden year in would not exist.

Look at the US. There are lots of unilateral flight agreements with many different countries. Same as Canada. Canada is not embracing "protectionist" measures...but rather controllling and oversight measures to ensure its own success in the industry as well. Its that simple.

One example of a trade imbalance is cheap labor forces. In China its obvious...but its there in EK too. Where do you think all those armies of indian office workers come from? Do you think they get a decent but modest salary like AC office people and a pension? Same with Lufthansa, Air France... ect. Its because all these countries have limits of what companies can get away with. Set out by... you got it.... the government. You and I are lucky that we are in a specialized industry where we demand a high(er) salary still in the UAE and elsewhere.

I am sorry to hear you sell out your own home country. You seem quite petty from my perspective.The UK is a great country with great industry and great civil liberties and rights. I would support it and companies like BA before the likes of EK.

Also, I am proud of Canada's history with GreatBritian. Some don't like the Queen on our currency, but I like it. Its a reminder from whence we came, and its fun to have the royals visit. The monarchy is useless in the political circle...everyone knows that, so its just a nice thing to have to bring the countries together as a common history. They are just fun to have around from a cultural perspective.

[grizzled]

Desertbannanas...

Huh??

Did you even read the first post I made on this issue last week? Or posts I've made on the Middle East forum over the past few years? Obviously not.

Please calm down and try to hear this: I was saying to "Contacted" that his last post was well written, without emotion, and stated his views clearly. Whether I agree with it or not is a different matter entirely.

Take a few deep breaths (and /or a beer or two), calm down, and think through the difference between "disagreement and debate" versus "shooting from the lip".

If you had read even a couple of my posts (espcecially the one that "Contacted" first disagreed with me on) you'll realise why in this case you should be a tad embarrassed. I don't mind getting slammed, but for God's sake read what I wrote first -- otherwise everyone in ppruneland will quickly brand you as being simply a silly bugger.

In summary, if you read what I've written in the past (and my first post on this matter on this thread) you'll see that you and I are on the same side with regard to Canada's actions. But, becuase of your childish way of posting before reading, I would be worried if we were on a debating team together.

Cheers,
grizz

[a330pilotcanada]

Comments from Mr Duncan Dee Executive Vice-President and Chief Operating Officer Air Canada:


“The recent discussions between Canada and the UAE related to bilateral air access rights were conducted on a principled basis entirely consistent with Canada’s Blue Sky Policy which has provided a framework for bilateral air negotiations since 2006,” said Duncan Dee, Executive Vice-President and Chief Operating Officer in the press release issued. “Over the years, Canada has reached Open Skies-type air agreements covering 35 countries. The process through which these agreements have been reached is based on a balanced exchange of economic benefits resulting from increased market access. The inclusion of considerations unrelated to aviation only serves to distort those important discussions, creating the potential for significant negative consequences on our industry and the economy as a whole. The current agreement strikes the appropriate balance between encouraging competition while at the same time providing opportunities for Canadian airlines to grow and compete successfully in a more liberalized global environment.


“There would be no net benefit to Canada in granting additional capacity between Canada and the UAE at this time as the current bilateral air agreement is sufficient to meet travel demand between the two countries. The Government’s actions are in the interests of Canadian commerce, Canadian jobs and encouraging growth in the Canadian economy. We commend the Government for its principled stand on this issue and for its support of a Canadian international air policy that provides for a healthy and viable Canadian air transportation industry creating more than 80,000 jobs in Canada. Air Canada further calls on all parties in the House of Commons to support the Government's approach which ensures the long term economic viability of our industry and safeguards the considerable economic benefits Canada gains from competitive international aviation,” concluded Mr. Dee.

[Desertbannanas]

Hey Grizz... I just re read some of your posts and I stand corrected. My apologies. I have recently jumped into this debate.

However, if you read some of my posts you will see that my point disagrees with your stance that this is protectionism. It is not. You must read the above post. In every unilateral trade agreement where countries have varying economies of scale, there must be some barriers. As things become equal and fair, then barriers can be brougnt down. As Contacteds quotedl paper mentions, and 330's quote supports.

[J.O.]

One more for the ignore list.

[Wxgeek]

U.A.E. slaps visas on Canadians

Who is the moron who is running with this strategy in UAE? Anyways thanks, it's one more reason to avoid your country.

[Willie Everlearn]

...well,
if THEY require a visa to enter Canada, then I'm okay with Canadians requiring a visa to enter the UAE.
(That's the way it used to be) which sounds reasonable to me.

EK and EY are still not going to get additional service to Canada, so....
a non-starter.


Willie
(aren't these icons cute?)

[Oblaaspop]

Willie, do me a favour please, would you kindly explain to the thicko Desertbananas that there are generally 2 sides to every argument as he doen't seem to get it! He/it only seems capable of reading 1 or 2 select lines from a post before his rectum explodes from its mouth!

That thing clearly can't compute logical reason, so I thought that as you seem to be able to post in a balanced way, perhaps you could point that out to him?

Many thanks

Obs

(BTW Desert, Bananas only has 2 N's not 3..........IQ of plankton!)

[Desertbannanas]

LOL... Oblasspop, Your such a baby. Can't you even post one logical argument and behave like a mature grown up? Of course there are always different ways to look at anything! It just depends on what you to use to define your argument. So sorry if I, and my Country's gov't are rubbing your shallow thinking in your face. I restate: Its not just about choice for the masses.

Here's some required reading to help educate you:

“The Race to the Bottom”. Alan Tonelson. Fellow at the Economic Strategy Institute and US business and Industrial Council.

“Rather than pursue more free trade, the US has to ensure trade policy is mutually beneficial to also ensure the engine of growth at home. Not just abroad”. This requires strategic policy.

-also-

“The Myth of Free Trade”. Dr. Ravi Batra. Professor of Economics, SMU.

-also-

“The predator State”. Professor at the Lyndon B. Johnson School of Public Affairs and at the Department of Government, University of Texas at Austin. He is also a Senior Scholar with the Levy Economics Institute of Bard College.

LOL... immature Wankxx!