Emirates vs. Air Canada

[fatbus]

Mate you must be a local " EK is just doing what its entitled to do " .since when were they entitled ?

[20driver]

The long term benefits of all Canadians

The long term benefit to the vast majority of Canadians it to have EK offer their product and let buyers decide what they want.

The goal of the very few Canadians who are AC employees and dependents is to keep out competition and screw the public. (As AC has always done)

This had nothing to do with traffic to Europe, it is all about traffic to Asia- the ever expanding center of the world economy. If EK wants to spend their money offering choice to Canadians whats the problem?

[J.O.]

Sorry KingAir there was no link on the posting at the time. It's there now so it may have been a glitch in my browser. Posting deleted.

[Oblaaspop]

Fat, EK is entitled to do it because erm......... The respective foreign governments entitled them to do it???? Was your post a trick post or did you just not understand the original point??

Oh and BTW, I'm clearly not local 'mate', I speak 'The Queens English'!

This entire thread really frustrates me. It's pretty damned obvious that the vast majority of people posting here are only interested in protecting AC!!! They have little or no interest in looking at facts, figures, or other perspectives. But most concerning is they clearly don't give a damn about regular 'Joe Public'.

Have any of you actually stopped for one second, put aside your obvious biases about protecting the useless dinosaur monopoly that is Air Canada (which if you are being completely honest is what this is really about!!), and bothered to ask the man on the street if he would like a choice of airline? No, didn't think so!!

Free market economy? My arse! I was actually considering retiring to the beautiful country of Canada, but the thought of being FORCED to choose which products I MUST buy and which services I MUST use reeks of the UK's nanny state mentality from which I spent most of my life trying to leave!

Say what you like about the 'sandpit', but at least as a consumer I get a choice on how to spend my own money here the way I choose!

Think about it folks, the concept of 'other people' isn't a difficult one!

[KingAir]

No problem J.O. I apologize again for the sarcasm. Post deleted as well.

[J.O.]

It's all good mate!

[engfireleft]

This entire thread really frustrates me. It's pretty damned obvious that the vast majority of people posting here are only interested in protecting AC!!! They have little or no interest in looking at facts, figures, or other perspectives. But most concerning is they clearly don't give a damn about regular 'Joe Public'.

Have any of you actually stopped for one second, put aside your obvious biases about protecting the useless dinosaur monopoly that is Air Canada (which if you are being completely honest is what this is really about!!), and bothered to ask the man on the street if he would like a choice of airline? No, didn't think so!!

Free market economy? My arse! I was actually considering retiring to the beautiful country of Canada, but the thought of being FORCED to choose which products I MUST buy and which services I MUST use reeks of the UK's nanny state mentality from which I spent most of my life trying to leave!

Say what you like about the 'sandpit', but at least as a consumer I get a choice on how to spend my own money here the way I choose!

Well, here in Canada we get a choice too. We can even fly on Emirates if we want since they have landing rights here, so please spare us the misguided lesson on free market.

It is the government's responsibility to protect Canadian interests from damaging foreign influences, especially within our own borders. You are pitifully mistaken if you don't think Dubai would do the same or worse if the situation were reversed. Look how they've reacted to protect Emirates already, and Canada is small potatoes to them.

The difference is Canada's response has been measured and in keeping with international norms whereas Dubai's has been vindictive and grossly out of proportion to the situation.

No. We have nothing to learn from them.

[flippersview]

oblaaspop wrote to me....

"Perhaps folks in NZ or Aus would prefer to fly on a nice new A380 with great service as opposed to a clapped out B737 or A320 with sh1t service.

Get your facts straight BEFORE posting as it may save you from looking foolish later on!"

Thank you for your sage advice..... Perhaps you have better check YOUR facts on Air Service Agreements and the signitories obligations. Clearly you do not understand what is going on down here and from reading your previous posts I am not going to bother to educate you. I am confident that the Government and ALPA in Canada is, and that is all that matters if you are a Canadian. Good on them.

As far as slagging the carriers in this part of the world, Air NZ in particular is very popular on the Tasman for service. In fact if you read aviation media you will find it was a past recipient of 'Airline of the Year'.

Have you heard of the expression "Not my Mohammad?"........

I am confident you would have if you are involved in the Gulf Aviation scene. It is a phrase I feel sure you would use often in conversation on this subject

Have a great day.

[Oblaaspop]

Erm, flipper, don't get your knickers in a twist!

Clearly you work for one of the Airlines down there (ANZ?) and feel you must protect their interests, I don't blame you, but a quick Google search will reveal that on the 29th May 2003, EK was granted 5th Freedom Rights across the Tasman.

Having read through the entire document, I am having trouble seeing exactly where EK isn't living up to its 'obligations'. If you are convinced otherwise, please spread the word and lobby your local MP, because clearly they aren't doing their job properly if an 'Invited Guest' isn't behaving appropriately.

How many first class suites, lay flat J class beds, and bar lounges exist in an ANZ narrow body? Award winning? Pah!!!

In answer to your question though, indeed I have NOT heard the expression "Not my Mohammad". I have however heard "My Mohammad's Different" or MMD as I have been in the sandpit for the thick end of a decade, though it's usually spouted by a 23 year old cabin crew member who is about to be cheated on by her Lebostani boyfriend! I fail to see what relevance that statement has regarding 5th Freedom Rights...... Perhaps you could enlighten me?

Engfireleft,

Indeed you are correct, a VERY small minority of folk in YYZ are fortunate enough to avail of the thrice weekly service EK offers from Pearson and therefore have a choice. But seeing as the flights are continually over-booked, it is blatantly obvious that more flights are required, we reckon we could fill 3x A380's per day from YYZ alone because the demand exists NOW. Why the hell is the Government dictating terms to the consumer? Please prove to me that that is a 'free market attitude'.

[nolimitholdem]

By your logic of legal entitlement then, Oblaaspop, EK has run the course of their "entitlement" to access to the Canadian market and been denied further. A quick Google search will also reveal the terms of the bilateral agreement that Canada and the UAE are signatories to. Both are complying with it. So what's the problem?

Your ONLY motivation to agitate on this issue seems to be the fact you work for EK and (naturally) want to it to grow, grow, expand, make more money...guess what, not everyone shares your somewhat self-interested perspective. And this from someone who also work for Emirates and actually IS Canadian, not just making peevish comments about retiring there. (Pssst: we don't want you! But if Dubai is your cup of tea, you'd really hate Canada anyway.)

This entire thread really frustrates me. It's pretty damned obvious that the vast majority of people posting here are only interested in protecting AC!!! They have little or no interest in looking at facts, figures, or other perspectives. But most concerning is they clearly don't give a damn about regular 'Joe Public'.

So who's got their knickers in a twist here?

I have no love for Air Canada, the company. But here's a tip for you - all employees in Canada, including those of AC - ARE "Joe Public". So toss your ideas about "we're all posting to defend the great evil AC", and stow the contempt for the opinions and perspectives of people who actually live there, who actually are quite capable of assessing facts about EK and the UAE - even when they're being manipulated by the EK press spin machine. (You can fool some people, but not those of us who live here.)

What I certainly DO have, is a love for Canada, the country and the industries there, including aviation. No one has shown how giving EK more access to Canada will benefit both countries equally, in fact a recent article earlier posted quite lucidly lays out the case for the exact opposite. It's a no-brainer that Emirates would take more away from the party than they're bringing, so they haven't been invited. Not that difficult to comprehend. I for one - the last to defend any politician - am deeply grateful and surprised that the Canadian government seems to have found some backbone, and then taken the high road over the whole Minhad situation. All the UAE did was embarrass themselves and show their true colours. Not to mention give a huge credibility problem to TC's shrill insistence that the national airlines aren't supported/subsidized/linked to the UAE government. I only wish Canada would take it a step further and shut down the UAE's overflight rights. To make a point.

To paraphrase your own comments, why in the hell is a Brit living in the Middle East trying to dictate to Canadians what the correct attitude to markets is? Please prove to me that it's ANY of your business beyond the aforementioned self-interest!

[Desertbannanas]

Well said Nolimit.

Oblasspop:

Dont get frustrated. I understand your point of view. It would benefit you and the UAE to have more access.

But lets not forget, there are 2 sides to every argument. The point is to try to hit the mark somehwere in the middle, and are we not already achieving that with all the flights to CA/NZ/AUS already?

You talk about ME carriers being "entitled". Are not Canada, NZ and Aus entitled to control the foreign capacity as well? It strikes me that the 3 countries are sharing the market to a degree already. We cannoth expect ME to have unfettered access. This is clearly an unreasonable request. You talk as if the countries in question are not allowing any access at at all but that is not true. Also you talk about "joe public". Not always is allowing the external gov'ts/companies decide their choices in their interests. Also there are mult levels to this argument... as its additional access from the ME will increase some revenue and jobs in areas in said countries, but then it will also take away in other ways. I suggest you let other countries make the decisions they are "entitled" to make.

All you guys complain all day about the unfairness in the UAE, but then those same arguments do not carry over into other things. It only applies when it suits you. You complain about cell services, skype, the companies lack of fair treatment... etc etc. This forum is saturated with it as is all areas.

Balance and cooperation are the words of the day. I have said it before... if you want to serve the countries in question then come with a mutually beneficial deal. Maybe an alliance? But then each gov't should have the right to measure it and refuse it.

Personally, I would feel much better about giving my money and market access to a ME carrier if they established much better human rights and labor laws. Encourage the groups to start unions... etc. Until then, we are not on equal footing.

Also, lets not forget, this is not really jsut about Air Canada. Its also about sharing with Lufthansa, BA, Air France/KLM, etc.

LOL..this is like a sexual harrasment case. NO means NO Emirates! And take your hand off my banana!

[Oblaaspop]

Sorry Nolimith, you said a hell of a lot (of cr@p) without actually saying anything at all.....

Please answer my basic question: Why should ANY government dictate how its citizens should spend their money?

And NO AC employees are NOT Joe Public in THIS context because anyone with an IQ greater than that of plankton (I assume you fall in this category?) would realise that they wouldn't hold an objective view....... Clear enough for ya eh??

Indeed, it wouldn't affect my life in any way shape or form if EK doesn't get extra rights to Canada. In fact I really do hope that they follow your suggestion an ban EK from overflying Canadian airspace! This will satisfy me greatly for the simple fact it will make your journey home for ALT a complete nightmare Then you really will have something to whinge and moan about!!

[TERRIER two]

More veiled threats

Qatar Airways urges more access to Canadian market | Reuters

[tbaylx]

And NO AC employees are NOT Joe Public in THIS context because anyone with an IQ greater than that of plankton (I assume you fall in this category?) would realise that they wouldn't hold an objective view....... Clear enough for ya eh??

And you work for EK..Hello pot..this is kettle. Nolimit completely dismantled your arguments with logic and you threw your toys out of the pram. Well played.

[grizzled]

This is a reworked version of a post I wrote last year on a different forum about the UAE.

First, I have never worked for Air Canada. In fact today’s Air Canada simply pi***es me off when I think of what it used to be, and could be. I’m Canadian but have spent the past 8 years living and working in diverse parts of the world – none of which are at all similar to Canada culturally or economically. (Mostly Asia and the Middle East, including a few years living and working in the UAE.)

Regardless of their motivation, for me the reason that our government’s position is correct, and should be applauded, is this: Despite what some of you believe (or want to believe) the UAE is a totalitarian regime with NO regard for human rights. Nationally owned companies (i.e. Emirates Airlines) succeed financially because they operate under rules and behaviours that are (supposedly) abhorrent to Canadians (Kiwis, Brits, Yanks, etc).

People in the “developed” world do their part to change company and government behaviours by speaking out, writing about, and boycotting those that engage in “slave trade” economics. Think of Nike in South East Asia, and the years of pressure put on South Africa. In the UAE it is illegal to even speak (never mind write) critically of the government, its practises, or legislation.

When it comes to the UAE, the playing field is NOT level. And the human rights violations would not be acceptable if most “Western” governments weren’t so afraid to offend these powerful suppliers of oil and gas.

Those who insist that the ideals and prractises of the UAE are somehow beneficial to us -- or viable, or sane, or even “real” – must be shopping, driving, working and living whilst wearing glasses so rose-coloured that even the brown Dubai air looks pink. Perhaps it’s a natural human trait to ignore, or at least compartmentalise into some deep recess of the brain, any signs or signals that might force one to question one’s environment (or one’s self) when the place appears so bright and blissful. But that view of Dubai is one-dimensional; under that happy shiny Disney surface lives a nasty troll of a reality. Dubai is George Orwell’s 1984 alive and unwell in 2010.

The “Life is good” mantra that flows from the pages of the Gulf News, through the malls, and bars and golf clubs -- from Deira, along Jumierah all the way to the Marina – is real alright. In the same sense that movie dialogue is real, and Las Vegas is real, and Disneyland is real. That is to say they exist, but only in their own context.

As one sips a nice cold $10 beer at Barasti on Thursday night, laughing and joking with one’s peers, one doesn’t tend to dwell much on the enigmas that might dampen the warm dry desert evening: If all those apartments in the Marina, The Palm, and even The Lakes, are all sold out, why are most of them empty? (Clue: They are indeed “sold out” as soon as they come onto the market. Sold to “Royals” by Emaar or Nakheel, or whomever. Then to someone else. Then maybe to you. But more likely held. It has to do with money; big money; money made; money transferred. And, perhaps most importantly, Family Money.)

Do you know about the “no swimming” at the beaches in Dubai thing? Interesting what one might learn if one were inclined to talk (quietly) to one of those sewage truck drivers. You know the ones I mean; lined up for up to 12 hours to dump their “load” at the world-class treatment plant. The plant that can only process 25% of what’s generated. So where does the rest go? No! It can’t be true in this world-class City-of-the-Future.

Which brings us to the word “infrastructure”. In Dubai, companies and governments use that word when they really mean “superstructure.” Dubai has “world-class” buildings and highways and malls and bridges and airports. That is not what is missing. What is missing is the infrastructure to support all the concrete “stuff”. Meaning a truly functional bureaucracy. (Anyone who lives there, or has lived there, can describe the farce that passes for services, rules, regulations, forms, queues, etc.) Most importantly, a few years hence, the world will find out what happens to “world class” structures when real infrastructure is absent: i.e. enforcement of construction standards and regulations by inspectors that really do ensure concrete meets the specifications.

The real Dubai – the one seen through the eyes of the waitresses, cashiers, and bartenders from South East Asia and Africa – is a place of racism, little hope, and a few dirhams a month left over to feed family back home.

The real Dubai – as seen through the eyes of all those born there, but not of Emirati parental origin – is a place where one is, and forever will be, Stateless. No rights, no citizenship, no place to call home.

The real Dubai – as seen through the eyes of the servant girls and maids from Who-Knows-Where (because they haven’t been hired, but “purchased”) is a place where one lives in either constant fear or simple resignation.

The real Dubai – as seen through the eyes of the construction worker from Sri Lanka, the cab driver from India, or the hooker from Nigeria – is a place of servitude. A 21st Century receiver and user of slaves. No rights, no respite from 12-hour work days 7 days a week. No advocates. Lies, more lies, and a huge loan to pay a trafficker for a visa, or even outright kidnapping, that got you there. And no hope of ever being able to buy your way out. God have mercy on those who get desperate enough to speak out about working or living conditions (as some poor souls have). One first gets physically punished, then sentenced to three months in prison. A real prison; a somewhat mediaeval prison some would even say. Followed by deportation home; to face the “businessman” one stills owes thousands of dollars to, for the visa to the promised land. Many realise suicide is the only real exit from the nightmare. Last year, one group of 20 labourers from India who found themselves in this position – after trying to speak out about sewage in their living places – committed suicide en-mass, rather than return unemployed and penniless to face the wives, children, and grandparents they were trying to support.

The real Dubai – as seen through the eyes of Emirati “royals” – is a place of joy. The joy that can only come from absolute power. And absolute control. A place of multi-million dollar aircraft, cars, homes and horses. And servants of course – in all the worst senses of that word.

We should not allow companies owned and operated by such a regime to operate and compete as if everything is okay. It is not okay.

Suggested Reading: Ozymandias, P.B. Shelley, 1818.

IMO,
grizz

[Oblaaspop]

tablxztshdhksdj, show me EXACTLY where my argument was 'dismantled' please.

My argument was and always has been that the Canadian Government is denying the consumer choice.

NO-ONE, you included, has come up with a sensible argument to counter that statement.......

I'm reading a lot of tripe from you guys, but not ONE valid argument to challenge my statement.

BTW I'm not even close to throwing my toys out the pram! The statement you quoted was designed to make a point for those people with an IQ greater than 3. In view of the fact you didn't 'get it', puts you firmly in the bracket of IQ equal to or less than 2.

[engfireleft]

But seeing as the flights are continually over-booked, it is blatantly obvious that more flights are required, we reckon we could fill 3x A380's per day from YYZ alone because the demand exists NOW.

What's that got to do with anything? Just because a demand is there doesn't give EK the right to come in and fill it. And those people who can't get a seat on Emirates presumably still get to where they want to go some other way.

Protecting important national industries is normal and can be accomplished while still adhering to international trade agreements, such as what is happening here. Canada's response has been responsible and mature. Completely unlike Dubai's vindictively juvenile response so far, which you still haven't acknowledged.

[Oblaaspop]

engfireleft, please check out my post a couple of pages back (post 213), 4th paragraph I believe........

I clearly stated that the UAE was acting up like a spoiled child at the moment!

So indeed I did acknowledge a while back that the UAE's behaviour is unacceptable.

Care to withdraw your statement and apologise? Thought not!

That's the trouble with most of you guys, you read, but you don't absorb, then make yourselves look foolish! Makes for good entertainment I suppose, but equally makes for poor reading.

You state that the Canadian Government has been responsible (in not allowing further access to Gulf Carriers I presume?). Clearly this is to protect its investment of over $200 million CAD to bail out AC from bankrupt protection a couple of years ago. Did you know that this would be illegal for a Government to do this in Europe? This is why the Italian Government HAD to allow Alitalia to go tits-up!

I've said it before and I'll say it again. The Government is not interested in what the public wants, only in how best to line its own pockets...... I wander how many 'brown envelopes' have passed hands during AC's lobbying of the Government? Uneven playing fields are clearly visible on your side of the pond as well.

[J.O.]

Ask a local councillor how much flak they will take if a food cart operator sets up shop on the sidewalk outside a tax paying restaurant. Most cities have limits on food carts for that reason. Car manufacturers often have limits to how many vehicles they're allowed to export to some countries. Canada's own softwood lumber and beef industries were held back significantly by the US when the low Canadian dollar provided a major cost advantage to Canadian producers.

Trade agreements are full of limits to provide balance and protect BOTH sides when there's a possibility for one party to take advantage over the other (i.e. one is much bigger than the other, or one is more heavily subsidized / less regulated than the other). There may not be a cheque being written, but the cost advantages that Gulf carriers enjoy with both a significantly lower tax advantage and a pool of very cheap unskilled labour (best described by grizzled above) is every bit as good as a cheque from the government in terms of providing cost advantages. And in a democratic country where the government does have to answer to its people, one of the considerations is always going to be how opening up markets to foreign businesses will be perceived by the tax paying / voting public. Only one of the governments in this dispute is faced with that particular reality.

[engfireleft]

Indeed the UAE may be acting up like a spoilt child at present, but AC and Transport Canada are acting just as poorly and are treating the fare paying public like morons...........

You're right...sort of. They are (not may be) acting like a spoiled child at present, or more accurately grownups with an unjustified sense of entitlement who don't know the meaning of diplomacy. No apology from me required though.

The Government is not interested in what the public wants, only in how best to line its own pockets...... I wander how many 'brown envelopes' have passed hands during AC's lobbying of the Government?

On the one hand I will agree that politicians are first and foremost interested in what's good for them personally. Such is the case the world over. However in this instance protecting a vital component of the Canadian transportation infrastructure is good for the Canadian public and therefore good for themselves as well. The two interests are mutual.

Two questions: What $200 million are you talking about? If it's the $250 they got from the government as part of a loan package in 2009, Air Canada is paying 12.75% interest which seems like a pretty good deal for the taxpayers. You know, the same Canadian public you think the government is doing such a disservice to. And what makes you think brown envelopes full of cash changed hands between AC lobbyists and members of the government? Pretty inflammatory accusation there. Did Griffiths put you up to it?