BA CC industrial relations (current airline staff only)

[Litebulbs]

Originally Posted by P-T-Gamekeeper

Nutjob,
2 local nights is not a legal issue, but an industrial limit. This is how cc do back to backs - industrially agreed for a payment, not illegal.

Taken from CAP371 -

Wherever possible and if required by the crew member, days off should be taken in the home environment.

A single day off shall include 2 local nights, and shall be of at least 34 hours duration. A planned rest period may be included as part of a day off. Crew members shall:

a) not be on duty more than 7 consecutive days between days off, but may be positioned to the usual operating base on the eighth day, provided they are then allocated at least 2 consecutive days off, and
b) have 2 consecutive days off in any consecutive 14 days following the previous 2 consecutive days off, and
c) have a minimum of 7 days off in any consecutive 4 weeks, and
d) have an average of at least 8 days off in each consecutive 4 week period, averaged over 3 such periods.

Rules Relating to Cabin Crew

The requirements detailed in this paragraph are applicable to all cabin crew employed as crew members, and are not intended to apply only to those cabin crew carried to meet the provisions of the Air Navigation Order.

The limitations applied to cabin crew are those applicable to flight crew members contained in paragraphs 6 to 23, but with the following differences:

a) A flying duty period is 1 hour longer than that permitted for flight crew. The FDP and limits set on early starts for cabin crew will be based on the time at which the flight crew report for their flying duty period, but that FDP will start at the report time of the cabin crew.
b) For cabin crew the minimum rest period which will be provided before undertaking a flying duty period shall be:
i) at least as long as the preceding duty period less 1 hour; or ii) 11 hours; whichever is the greater.
c) The combined sum of standby time and subsequent FDP will be 1 hour longer than that permitted to flight crew.
d) The maximum duty hours for cabin crew will not exceed:
60 hours in any 7 consecutive days, but can be increased to 65 hours under similar circumstances applicable to flight crew
105 hours in any 14 consecutive days
210 hours in any 28 consecutive days.

Note the single day off explanation in this document that comes from The Civil Aviation (Working Time) Regulations 2004, which makes it legal.

[Right Engine]

I think the MF crew will find their solution in the annual crew hours limits of 900 hours p.a. Unless of course the new European FTL limits are brought in soon....

[Litebulbs]

Right Engine

That may be the case, but will they be then laid off?

[MFCREW]

Lightbulbs

This is now our worry - no wonder BA put a lay off clause in our contracts!

If we go over our limits and cant fly - they can lay us off with no pay

[P-T-Gamekeeper]

Litebulbs - BA cc legal limits are the BA scheme, which is based on CAP 371, and approved by the CAA. There are often subtle differences.

Even with those CAP 371 limits, it is legally possible to operate 2 b2b trips, as most longhaul trips are 3 days. Longer trips will usually have 2 local nights off downroute, so even they comply.

As alluded to above, the 900 hr limit is reached very quickly if rosters are designed this way. Most full time ww cc reach the 900 hr limit, even with generous MTB provision, so this is most likely to be teething troubles with the setup of MF, very similar to what happened at SFLGW.

I very much doubt that BA will roster MF to 900 hrs in 8 months then terminate. BA see MF as the future. How many crew would they recruit with practices like that?

What this does show is that in the real world, there are few absolute guarantees and protections. Maybe it will show a few old contract hardliners how good their deal still is.

[Juan Tugoh]

Litebulbs,

you are quoting CAP 371, which is not the relevant document for BA crew, rather you need to look at JPM 1.16. However, I doubt there is little difference in this particular case and I cannot be bothered to look it up. Despite that, you are confusing min rest and a rostered day off. There is no legal requirement to have a rostered day off post a LH trip.

The min rest would be for CC 11 hours or the length of the preceeding duty minus one hour if trhe preceeding duty exceeded12 duty hours. So if the preceeding duty was 13:30 then min rest is 12:30 for CC. A Rostered day off is something else entirely - it is a day clear of duty and must include two locla nights - again there is a definition of a local night that I cannot be bothered to look up but is something like a night with no duty after 22:00 or before 06:00. I am sure someone here will provide chapter and verse on definitions.

There is no legal restriction requiring a day off between LH flights. As Betty Girl has stated this may be legal but as to whether it is desirable is another matter.

[Litebulbs]

Juan and P-T -

I was quoting the CAA scheme to highlight the day off definition. That is the minimum requirement with regard to the law. It doesn't matter what agreement BA have, as long as its minimum position does not fall below the Working Time Regulations.

As to the comment on termination; I was not suggesting that. I am sure I read a contract provision for a layoff without pay, which is not a termination.

[ottergirl]

This is now our worry - no wonder BA put a lay off clause in our contracts!

If we go over our limits and cant fly - they can lay us off with no pay

MF Crew, you are in uncharted territory here because BA have never had the option of 'standing people down' so it has never happened before. You will have a strength in numbers eventually so your priority is to get enough of you together to approach Unite for your own NSP branch and start negotiating. You will also need some means of negotiating future pay deals, etc so a collective bargaining group is inevitable. Might also be worth looking at EU legislation to see whether it is acceptable to treat full-time permanent workers in such a careless fashion.

On the plus side your new employer doesn't like to be seen as a baddy so tends to play quite fair IMHO (as the BASSA faithful fall about laughing!) It wouldn't look good for a profit making full-service carrier to have it's cabin crew claiming Income support so don't assume the worse.

Took over from some of your colleagues the other day and chatted awhile. Please spread the word that we don't bite and are really happy to meet you. Some of the MF crew looked scared to death! Welcome to BA!

[Betty girl]

I have just heard through the grapevine that recruiters at LHR are finding it really hard to fill the new CSM positions on Mixed Fleet.

Apparently they have plenty of young people wanting to be main crew or Future Talent but getting people from other airlines to apply for the CSM position is proving very hard. The applicants have to have had previous 'In charge' experience and as well as that, external applicants need to have had 'in charge experience' with an airline that operates long haul flights.

Apparently, they had thought more current BA cabin crew might have applied but a lot of current crew either don't want to work on Mixed Fleet terms and conditions or don't have previous 'in charge' experience, which the CAA are insisting on, due to it being a new fleet.

The actual CSM pay does not compare that well to other airline SCCMs pay and also has a lot of other administrative duties which requires the CSMs to live close to LHR as some duties involve working in the CRC at LHR.

The bizarre part of all of this is that they currently have too many CSDs on E/F which is a result of the 757 going and the shrinking of E/F because of Mixed Fleet taking some of the routes.

You just couldn't make it up!!

[Juan Tugoh]

Litebulbs,

you are not quite right in the statement that

It doesn't matter what agreement BA have

as the BA scheme is approved by the regulating authority - the CAA. There are differences between CAP 371 and the BA scheme, generally they are subtle and not major, but that does not mean that CAP371 applies to BA crew.

The day off definition is fair enough, but it does not mean that it is applicable in the situation that you are suggesting it should be used. The BA definition of a day off is as follows:

DAYS OFF'
Periods available for leisure and relaxation free of all duties. A single
day off shall include two local nights. Consecutive days off shall include
a further local night for each additional consecutive day off. A rest
period may be included as part of a day off.

Note it also talks about a rest period in there, which is defined as:

'REST PERIOD'
A period of time before starting a flying duty period which is designed
to give crew members adequate opportunity to rest before a flight.

They are different things and a day off is not legally required after a long haul duty. CAP371 does not require a day off after a long haul duty either.

[Betty girl]

Juan Tugoh,

No one at any time has said that the rostering on Mixed Fleet is illegal or that they have to have a day off and that includes Litebulbs.

What has been said is that a lot of Mixed Fleet crew had been led to believe that they would get two days off after a long haul flight, like LGW crew do.

Also, many people think that doing a run of long haul sectors with only one day off afterwards would be tiring.

[Litebulbs]

Originally Posted by Juan Tugoh

They are different things and a day off is not legally required after a long haul duty. CAP371 does not require a day off after a long haul duty either.

It does depending on destination, sector length and acclimatisation etc.

[Juan Tugoh]

Litebulbs - I'll take your word for it, as I said, it is not a relevant document for BA crews.

[Yellow Pen]

Originally Posted by Betty Girl

I have just heard through the grapevine that recruiters at LHR are finding it really hard to fill the new CSM positions on Mixed Fleet.

Apparently they have plenty of young people wanting to be main crew or Future Talent but getting people from other airlines to apply for the CSM position is proving very hard.

Which is interesting because my normally reliable source tells me it's the exact opposite - plenty of interest in CSM, not so much in main crew. I'm inclined to believe the latter simply because CSM offers a competitive package compared to bmi and Virgin with better job security.

[Litebulbs]

Originally Posted by Juan Tugoh

Litebulbs - I'll take your word for it, as I said, it is not a relevant document for BA crews.

I should hope that it is not relevant, as it is the minimum position.

[Hotel Mode]

It does depending on destination, sector length and acclimatisation etc.

No it doesnt. There is no "local nights" restriction except with regards to days off. Which may of course be taken downroute not at home.

It never requires more than the mimimum rest for the preceding sector. IF it falls in the 18-30hrs rest the max succeeding duty may be reduced below that required, but if that rest was kept below 18hrs the same duty as after 30hrs would be allowable. ie 12 hrs rest gives the same allowable duty as 31.

Can we leave the speculation on CAP371 to those who use it every day please?

[yellowdog]

Litebulbs - I'll take your word for it, as I said, it is not a relevant document for BA crews.

Forgive my question but are MF working to CAP371 minimums or to BA FTL scheme?

[Beagle9]

In no particular order the following:

To save you looking it up, a "local Night" is a period of 8 hours, falling between 22.00 and 08.00 local time. ie 22.00 to 06.00 is a local night, as is 23.00 to 07.00 and 00.00 to 08.00. Therefore, for rest purposes, if you are off duty at 00.01, a local night can't be acheived.

In the early days of Mid Fleet, we had minimum one day off after a longhaul trip (10 days off per month), however that was quickly changed to 2 min.

Lay off after reaching 900 hours. Unlikely in my opinion, but like all things with MF, at the moment, you have nobody to represent you for collective bargaining, despite BA offering Unite the opportunity. I suspect this has even caught BA by surprise. I imagine that when they originally drew up plans for MF under Columbus, that they thought there would be a union branch representing their interest that would "negociate up" from the starting point of the plan. Since this hasn't happened, BA are probably going to "suck it and see" with the minimum they can get away with re pay, hours, days off etc. until a representative group can be formed. If I was on MF I'd be making some urgent moves to get, if not unite, some other union interested in supporting a MF CC branch.

Also, everything is market rate driven. BA will be asking "What is the minimum we need offer to still acheive superior Customer Service? They are unlikely to be nieve enough to think that treating people like slaves and laying them off without pay for periods will suffice.

[oh-oh]

Hi Litebulbs.

It is not necessarily the minimum;
from the CAA website -
Flight Time Limitations (FTLs)

The ANO requires AOC holders in most circumstances to operate only in accordance with the provisions of an FTL scheme approved by the CAA.
Schemes compliant with CAP 37122 - "The Avoidance of Fatigue in Aircrews" will be approved although alternative schemes may also be approved if the CAA is satisfied that an equivalent level of safety will be achieved.

Link at Preparing an Application | Flight Operations | Safety Regulation

[Litebulbs]

Originally Posted by Hotel Mode

Can we leave the speculation on CAP371 to those who use it every day please?

Pleasant as ever. If I choose to speculate about CAP371, which is in the public arena, I will. No doubt if I breach the forum rules, my posts will be moderated.