BA CC industrial relations (current airline staff only)

[essessdeedee]

Moreover, forget the laws and the contracts and everything else for the moment and ask yourself - is this fair?

If you signed a 'fair' contract. Is it then right that, at the end of that contract, you start screaming that it is no longer fair? What if it was the other way around and the employer demands that you must stay on for 20 more years?

[Vortex what...ouch!]

I'm really curious why being cabin crew is a hard life?

Yes, you are missing something Vortex, the 900 hours refers to block hours only, that is the time spent in the air and it does not include pre- and post-flight duties, turnaround duties, stanbys etc.

I get up at 0630 in the morning, if I'm not showered by 0650 and on the road to the train station and so London by 0700 I cannot make my office by 0900. If not I might lose my job.

I then work until 1730. Not allowed to leave earlier for various reasons.

I then head off for the train station heading home. If I miss the early one it means I have to take the slow one, adds an hour to my travel time.

I get home at 2100 if I get the slow one, 2030 if I get the early one. Just enough time to eat, take in the news and go to bed, and so we begin again.

Some of us work much longer hours, start adding the numbers up and wind your arrogant neck in.

You wonder why you have no public support?

[GayGourmet]

Essessdeedee wrote:

If you signed a 'fair' contract. Is it then right that, at the end of that contract, you start screaming that it is no longer fair?

What may have been "fair" when the contract was signed is clearly not fair now. Not to me anyway.

If nobody challenges these things, they do not change. I think this worth challenging.

What if it was the other way around and the employer demands that you must stay on for 20 more years?

What if you say "no"?

[Juan Tugoh]

I'm no supporter of BASSA, but with all due respect VWO you are talking about something of which you know nothing. You do not regularly work throughout the night. You do not suffer the long term effects of jetlag, dehydrating atmospheres and increased radiation levels. You, like millions of people work hard, well so do cabin crew.

If you work a 40 hour week and work for 48 weeks a year you work for 1920 hours per year. Crew duty hours - remember the 900 number is flying hours only - are limited by law to 190 in a 28 day period. Take off 6 weeks leave and this is 1985 hours a year = effectively the same amount of duty as the 40 hour per week person without the additional environmental stressors that cabin crew have to deal with.

So perhaps you would like to do the maths - I have deliberately left out the commute to work as we all have to deal with that, you are not unique there. We all choose where we live and how close that is to work. Your inclusion of your travel plans is irrelevant to the argument, many people commute long distances to work, cabin crew included.

[Vortex what...ouch!]

Mr/Mrs Vortex is having a week off to think about the rules he/she signed up to when joining this website.

CC Forum Moderators

[Juan Tugoh]

With all due respect, why is it that anyone that disagrees with an assertion does not live in the real world? Is it because a trite, snappy, soundbite response excuses one of having to argue one's points logically?

[Beagle9]

Annual Duty Hours

Actually VWO, a rather more useful figure is the annual DUTY HOURS max for cabin crew of 2000. This includes report times before the FLYING DUTY (to which the 900 hours refers) starts, and the clear time after any flying duty finishes, as well as any pure ground duties performed, such as training.

In other words an exact comparison to your annual 9 - 5.30 working hours total. ie Almost identical.

Oh, and regarding your comment about not leaving early for any reason? I can assure you, once our flying duty period begins, we don't leave early for any reason either!!

[One annoyed realist]

I'm no supporter of BASSA, but with all due respect VWO you are talking about something of which you know nothing. You do not regularly work throughout the night. You do not suffer the long term effects of jetlag, dehydrating atmospheres and increased radiation levels. You, like millions of people work hard, well so do cabin crew.

If you work a 40 hour week and work for 48 weeks a year you work for 1920 hours per year. Crew duty hours - remember the 900 number is flying hours only - are limited by law to 190 in a 28 day period. Take off 6 weeks leave and this is 1985 hours a year = effectively the same amount of duty as the 40 hour per week person without the additional environmental stressors that cabin crew have to deal with.

So perhaps you would like to do the maths - I have deliberately left out the commute to work as we all have to deal with that, you are not unique there. We all choose where we live and how close that is to work. Your inclusion of your travel plans is irrelevant to the argument, many people commute long distances to work, cabin crew included.

We all take jobs based on travel and work time. Lots of people work hard, Cabin Crew are nothing special. If you don't like it, get another job!! It's what the rest of us do.

[Juan Tugoh]

We all take jobs based on travel and work time. Lots of people work hard, Cabin Crew are nothing special

Yup, that was my point. Cabin crew, like workers everywhere, work hard in a job they chose. Trying to pretend they somehow have a easy time at work based on them only working for 900 hours a year was erroneous and needed to be addressed.

Cabin crew are special; it takes a special type of person to do that job well, for a career. It also takes someone special to be a good stockbroker or chef or oil rig worker or air traffic controller. Being special does not imply that you are in some way a better person, merely that you have a particular skill set or personality type, that you are different from the herd. Cabin crew are special, not better, if they aren't they do not last in the job.

Perhaps we could all stick to the issues, this is not about crew as individuals but about them as an industrial grouping.

[One annoyed realist]

Quote:
We all take jobs based on travel and work time. Lots of people work hard, Cabin Crew are nothing special
Yup, that was my point. Cabin crew, like workers everywhere, work hard in a job they chose. Trying to pretend they somehow have a easy time at work based on them only working for 900 hours a year was erroneous and needed to be addressed.

Indeed, if the average worker put in 8 hours a day for 21 days a month they would do 168 hours a month or 2000+ hours a year. Slave labour!

[Hubert Davenport]

Vortex,
You really have no idea of what long haul cabin crew have to do.
Report time of 1930 for a trip to South America.
It was a day of severe weather so as a consciences worker I leave home at 15:30.
On my way to work I get a call from the company informing me that the flight was delayed and my new report was 21:45.
No point in me returning home now as the snow was severe, onwards to LHR.
I arrive and prepare for the 12hr flight.
We get on the aircraft at 22:30 and carry put pre flight checks.
22:45 informed that our fight crew are stuck in traffic and will be with us in a few hours.
00:45 the flight crew arrive and all seems well.
Oh!! de-icing, 2nd in line depart at 01:15.
Arrive in the hotel at destination some 14 hours later.
Now this is not an every day occurrence but something I doubt very much the mundane 9 to 5 have to cope with.
Trust me this was the tip of the story.

[Juan Tugoh]

One annoyed realist

Indeed, if the average worker put in 8 hours a day for 21 days a month they would do 168 hours a month or 2000+ hours a year.

No holidays then? Your figures work out at 2016 hours per year based on no holidays, most people get about 4 weeks a year holiday this would drop your figures to 1848 hours per year.

Still not sure what point you are trying to make.

[Colonel White]

At the risk of appearing boring ....

Anyone got a clue where we are with a strike ballot? Is the delay by Unite
a) because they want to be seen to have exhausted all possible avenues with management first
b) because they haven't got a cause that they can unite behind that won't be considered continuation of the previous strike
c) because they think that they might lose a ballot and are just procrastinating
d) because by holding off on giving notice of a ballot until the new year, they can then bring Easter within range for any strike action, with the scare on bookings to coincide with Royal wedding etc as well.

Judging from the CC89 reps, they are busting to walk out but they can't agree with BASSA on the reasons. Interesting that they have been excluded from any talks. Any indications if the same is true of the BASSA reps ?

[Beagle9]

OAR, you seem to be a fairly new poster. If you look back over Juan's posts on earlier pages, you will see that, like me, he is a cabin crew member that is very critical of Unite's handling of the dispute, like me he has left the union and like me he went to work during the strikes determined to keep the airline flying.

I suspect from his posts that, like me, he has a full appreciation of the fact that, as legacy crew, we have good terms and conditions, but that these were established in a very different time for the airline industry and are thus now unsustainable for anyone else joining the company in this new era of low cost competitors. Hence our support for the company and our frustration at Unite for it's inability to accept this and behave like adults in addressing it.

In other words, we get it. You don't need to treat us as if we are spoilt and unaware that we are luckier than many people in the country in this era of austerity. We understand that other people in other jobs work hard.

We don't go around pointing fingers at managers in Waterside, saying they just sit around all day drinking latte's - I've admonished many a crew member about that, as I know it's not true. I DO actually work 9 - 5 as well sometimes, as a trainer, so I know the frustrations of rush hour commuting and the fact that although it may say 9 - 5 on my roster, it's often 07.30 to 18.00 just to get the job done, plus preparation or report writing at home.

Conversely, however, we do get annoyed when people outside of our job, without full understanding of what it's really like, pick up on just the obvious good sides to the job (of which there ARE many) but ignore, or are ignorant of, the downsides. In other words we are just trying to set the record straight, not claiming "poor me, poor hard done by cabin crew"

I post on here, because I am angry with BASSA/Amicus/Unite. I agree with much of what is posted on here in oppostion to the strikes, but I do get very annoyed when people get carried away with the anti cabin crew rhetoric. It's easy to get carried away in damning all aspects of all cabin crew, when it's really just the decision to strike that's being citisised.

[TightSlot]

OAR is on a short break. Quickly hide all his toys and then play all the games that you normally can't when he's in the playground.

[spin_doctor]

Conversely, however, we do get annoyed when people outside of our job, without full understanding of what it's really like, pick up on just the obvious good sides to the job (of which there ARE many) but ignore, or are ignorant of, the downsides. In other words we are just trying to set the record straight, not claiming "poor me, poor hard done by cabin crew"

Well put Beagle9. I find this annoying when it happens to me, and also when people talk about other departments in BA too. I used to work on the ground for BA and know full well that Waterside is not the happy latte fountain it's often portrayed as.

Hours vary, duties vary, some work hard and others get away with very little. How about we put this one to bed now and concentrate on the actual dispute?

[Cough]

So to do 900 block flying hours you would have to do...

Average of 9 hour flights = 100 flights per year. I have gone low with this estimate as it makes the duty hours more.

Check in 1:30 prior to flight, check out :30 post flight (?)

So average of an 11 hour duty gives 1100 duty hours per year + SEP + other ground training + delays (not insignificant at the mo...)

Short haul cabin crew despite doing less flying hours will clock up more duty due to length of time spent on the ground.

[who came first]

Col. White said:

Judging from the CC89 reps, they are busting to walk out but they can't agree with BASSA on the reasons. Interesting that they have been excluded from any talks. Any indications if the same is true of the BASSA reps ?

I think BA have exclude all local reps for over a year now. They only speak directly to Unite. I believe there have been a couple of occasions where reps have been allowed to listen to talks but not to take part.

[essessdeedee]

2000. This includes report times before the FLYING DUTY (to which the 900 hours refers) starts, and the clear time after any flying duty finishes, as well as any pure ground duties performed, such as training.

So looking at a longhaul crew member with approximately 4 trips /month minus leave plus SEP/MLD. You can add on another 120 hours? Still a long way from the theoretical 2000 hours.

[essessdeedee]

Hubert

something I doubt very much the mundane 9 to 5 have to cope with.

I recall listening to the radio on my way in to work where some of the '9 to 5' had been stuck on a train for over 12 hours and had still not arrived home and that was only to Kent!