BA CC industrial relations (current airline staff only)
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But Lib Dem
I want BASSA/union
I want reps to help me and others, to uphold our agreements, to stop company B+H, to put my point of view over, to protect me and to speak for those who can't/won't. I want health and safety I want protection.
Just like you (if you are a pilot forgive me if not) do from BALPA, surely?
But I do want honesty. I want intelligence. I want the truth not spin. I want reps who will represent me and not them and their mates/peer group.
But how do the little people like me (thirty something Mum, main earner and not particularly switched on to all this, well up to now anyway) get that?
I want BASSA/union
I want reps to help me and others, to uphold our agreements, to stop company B+H, to put my point of view over, to protect me and to speak for those who can't/won't. I want health and safety I want protection.
Just like you (if you are a pilot forgive me if not) do from BALPA, surely?
But I do want honesty. I want intelligence. I want the truth not spin. I want reps who will represent me and not them and their mates/peer group.
But how do the little people like me (thirty something Mum, main earner and not particularly switched on to all this, well up to now anyway) get that?
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Rosiegirl, so much of what you want can be provided by yourself. This was part of the bassa trick over the years, to convince crew into thinking that only bassa could look after them. By doing so, they took away peoples belief in being able to look after themselves. So few people have ever experienced company B&H and yet many go on about it as if it happens to them personally on a regular basis .... again another clever bassa trick .... by constantly mentioning something, and keeping it in peoples minds, they've manipulated many into believing they themselves have experienced/been victims of it.
You've already stated that you won't join the PCCC so I won't push that just now. Would you at least consider resigning from bassa, an outfit that you are now apparently starting to see in its true colours?
You've already stated that you won't join the PCCC so I won't push that just now. Would you at least consider resigning from bassa, an outfit that you are now apparently starting to see in its true colours?
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Rosiegirl
What you want is not at all unreasonable, as most people in BA are represented by a union you would be hard pressed to make the argument that BA is an anti-union company. So given your desire for representation your choices are limited. The PCCC may become something though it has a long way to go, I think it missed an opportunity when it stayed faceless for too long - but that is just my viewpoint. The other option that you have is to attempt to effect change within BASSA from within.
To do that you need to have fresh elections which will not happen while the dispute continues as the undemocratic show of hands allowed the current leadership to avoid an election until the dispute is settled. So first and foremost you have to end this dispute, the best way to do that is to vote for the offer on the table.
Once the dispute is over, hold elections and press for constitutional changes within BASSA to prevent what you see as the poor practices from happening again. Elect reps that are more representative - establish quotas for reps in rank that reflect the make up of the union, ie do not let it be run by LH CSDs. All ranks must be represented in the same ratio they exist in the community, as well as the same ratio for LH and SH.
Or any other changes that seem to enable you to achieve your honest decent representation that you deserve. This may be a low point, but you now have the opportunity to make things better - but first this dispute must end. You know how to achieve that.
To do that you need to have fresh elections which will not happen while the dispute continues as the undemocratic show of hands allowed the current leadership to avoid an election until the dispute is settled. So first and foremost you have to end this dispute, the best way to do that is to vote for the offer on the table.
Once the dispute is over, hold elections and press for constitutional changes within BASSA to prevent what you see as the poor practices from happening again. Elect reps that are more representative - establish quotas for reps in rank that reflect the make up of the union, ie do not let it be run by LH CSDs. All ranks must be represented in the same ratio they exist in the community, as well as the same ratio for LH and SH.
Or any other changes that seem to enable you to achieve your honest decent representation that you deserve. This may be a low point, but you now have the opportunity to make things better - but first this dispute must end. You know how to achieve that.
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Rosiegirl - welcome to the forum. Contrary to popular opinion amongst the diehard militants, you will find reasoned debate here - and I'm speaking as cabin crew of 20+ years
To be honest Rosiegirl, I do believe that our colleagues have on the most part been very fair in their discussions with cabin crew ( with the odd exception!). However, the way they've been portrayed by the minority militant members and leadership would have us all believing they have had some hidden agenda rather than being able to see the wood for the trees -why? Because it suited some to have us believe that - God forbid we got a different perspective and point of view! I do believe this is coming to an end now as more of us are seeing how badly things have been handled. Everyone's tired - the deal is there, the best on offer, so perhaps it's time to accept and move on.
I have had some really good chats recently with pilots downroute. Far from the bullys that they are protrayed as I have found that many (not all but many) have given me a more balanced view on the whole situation from the start and how I and my well meaning caring colleagues have ended up here.
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TorC
I disagree, that is being a union man myself. The best way forward in this dispute is wholesale change from within and that is within BASSA. But keeping everybody's representation ongoing with intelligent leadership.
And that takes reps with a honest, business like approach to securing the future of the crew that they represent. I have met a few who are BASSA reps who could, but not many. The crew within BASSA have to drive leadership change to secure their own future.
I disagree, that is being a union man myself. The best way forward in this dispute is wholesale change from within and that is within BASSA. But keeping everybody's representation ongoing with intelligent leadership.
And that takes reps with a honest, business like approach to securing the future of the crew that they represent. I have met a few who are BASSA reps who could, but not many. The crew within BASSA have to drive leadership change to secure their own future.
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Torc
But where does resigning leave me?
As I understand it the PCCC is not going to represent me. I need some protection. What if a passenger reports me or I get on a disiplinary?
I haven't got the ability to represent myself, that is a sad but true admission.
But I am very disheartened.
It's not my fault I earn what I earn That is my contract. I am a purser on longhaul and earn a good wage (not brilliant but good) and I want to stay earning about what I do. I am worried by new fleet. The fact they exist is a threat to me and I can't ignore that.
That said I can't help but think (and from my chats with some pilots, especially a really nice senior BALPA captain on a trip) that if my union had negotiated in the first place that new fleet may have had a chance to be integrated and not separate.
I don't know about how accuarate that is but I'll be very upset if it were true. That for me is the biggest issue not working one down.
But where does resigning leave me?
As I understand it the PCCC is not going to represent me. I need some protection. What if a passenger reports me or I get on a disiplinary?
I haven't got the ability to represent myself, that is a sad but true admission.
But I am very disheartened.
It's not my fault I earn what I earn That is my contract. I am a purser on longhaul and earn a good wage (not brilliant but good) and I want to stay earning about what I do. I am worried by new fleet. The fact they exist is a threat to me and I can't ignore that.
That said I can't help but think (and from my chats with some pilots, especially a really nice senior BALPA captain on a trip) that if my union had negotiated in the first place that new fleet may have had a chance to be integrated and not separate.
I don't know about how accuarate that is but I'll be very upset if it were true. That for me is the biggest issue not working one down.
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Rosiegirl,
I resigned from the Union early on in the dispute but I had been a member for all of my service before that. I also believe that a Union is a good thing, that there should be someone to speak up for the staff but not at any price.
A good Union and good reps need to tell their members the truth (even if we don't want to hear it), they need to turn up to negotiations and sit at the table until they reach agreement and, above all, put the interests of their members ahead of any petty squabbles. A growing number of crew don't believe that our current reps can do that and so have chosen to live outside the Union.
The protection for B&H, Health and Safety, legal protection for Injury at work are all provided by UK legislation. There are 'no win, no fee' lawyers if you get injured. You can take any other colleague you want into an attendance interview with BA, doesn't have to be a rep so choose the cleverst person you know! Being non-union crew is not the problem that you think it is. Good luck with your choice.
I resigned from the Union early on in the dispute but I had been a member for all of my service before that. I also believe that a Union is a good thing, that there should be someone to speak up for the staff but not at any price.
A good Union and good reps need to tell their members the truth (even if we don't want to hear it), they need to turn up to negotiations and sit at the table until they reach agreement and, above all, put the interests of their members ahead of any petty squabbles. A growing number of crew don't believe that our current reps can do that and so have chosen to live outside the Union.
The protection for B&H, Health and Safety, legal protection for Injury at work are all provided by UK legislation. There are 'no win, no fee' lawyers if you get injured. You can take any other colleague you want into an attendance interview with BA, doesn't have to be a rep so choose the cleverst person you know! Being non-union crew is not the problem that you think it is. Good luck with your choice.
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I'm interested to see how Big Unite (not Bassa or CC89) play this, now that CC89 have recommended members reject the proposal. This was written by Duncan Holley a few days back answering the critcisim levelled at the reps as to why Bassa were recommending accepting the deal.
It appears to me that DH wasn't certain of Unite's support for another strike if the recommendation from Bassa/CC89 was no.
This almost pains me to say but we must also be cognisant of a third person in all this. Unite. If the reps had rejected this deal or gone to ballot with a recommendation to reject (WW permitting) would we get the full support from Unite if the vote was No? We will never know the answer to that but this way if the vote is No - ie rejection - then Unite will have no other choice but to back another industrial action ballot. They are on record saying that. This too had an influence on how BASSA came to decide the way we did.
Last edited by Meal Chucker; 3rd Nov 2010 at 20:33.
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Otter
Thanks. You are braver than me (for now) because from what I have seen, heard (very disturbing see previous posts) and spoken to some really switched on flight and cabin crew recently, not to mention today although confusing me and upsetting me is actually giving me the will to stand up for myself.
That isnt always easy when for so long you have relied on others both at home and at work.
I had to start relying on myself more at home and with the hardships and stress that going on strike brought it has started to kick me up the you know what and made me start having some self respect.
I'm going to use that hpefully but I'm not quite there yet.
I have had my eyes open though and if nothing else that is a good thing.
Thanks. You are braver than me (for now) because from what I have seen, heard (very disturbing see previous posts) and spoken to some really switched on flight and cabin crew recently, not to mention today although confusing me and upsetting me is actually giving me the will to stand up for myself.
That isnt always easy when for so long you have relied on others both at home and at work.
I had to start relying on myself more at home and with the hardships and stress that going on strike brought it has started to kick me up the you know what and made me start having some self respect.
I'm going to use that hpefully but I'm not quite there yet.
I have had my eyes open though and if nothing else that is a good thing.
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Question
Given that the letter to Brendan Barber states that staff travel will be restored in full in 2013 provided the offer is recommended, does the latest missive from Amicus now mean the reset date of joining for ST purposes is now permanent? Or is it just Unite who have to recommend the offer, leaving the branches to do as they please? In which case why have BASSA not done the same, given they have grudgingly told their members that its "up to them".
Or have I got the wrong end of the stick?
Any thoughts?
GG
Or have I got the wrong end of the stick?
Any thoughts?
GG
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Cough
Not actually anti-union myself but just trying to point-out that members of ANY union have to be realistic about what they want/expect from a union. I think people also may need to seriously rethink their relationship with BA which has in many cases been poisoned by the vitriol so often put-about by bassa. On standing back a little, opening their minds and thinking, many would probably see that they themselves could help change the employee/employer relationship and make it much healthier than it is. Personal responsibility I suppose.
TBH, most crew (myself included) simply joined bassa (or in a very few cases cc89) shortly after starting flying without question or thought. It was just what everyone did. Looking back, I can't believe I was so niave as to agree to part with £s on a monthly basis to an organisation that I knew virtually nothing about. Luckily for me, I saw the light over 18 months ago, and resigned from bassa when they proved themselves unable to deal with members asking real questions.
Not actually anti-union myself but just trying to point-out that members of ANY union have to be realistic about what they want/expect from a union. I think people also may need to seriously rethink their relationship with BA which has in many cases been poisoned by the vitriol so often put-about by bassa. On standing back a little, opening their minds and thinking, many would probably see that they themselves could help change the employee/employer relationship and make it much healthier than it is. Personal responsibility I suppose.
TBH, most crew (myself included) simply joined bassa (or in a very few cases cc89) shortly after starting flying without question or thought. It was just what everyone did. Looking back, I can't believe I was so niave as to agree to part with £s on a monthly basis to an organisation that I knew virtually nothing about. Luckily for me, I saw the light over 18 months ago, and resigned from bassa when they proved themselves unable to deal with members asking real questions.
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Rosiegirl, As Ottergirl says, choose someone else in BA, not a rep. There ARE good managers who are fair and know their stuff - I'm lucky and have one as well as being able to recommend quite a few others. It doesn't have to be someone from a union. I resigned from Amicus some years ago.
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I am also cabin crew with 20 odd years in the pension bank.
We all thought for many years that we actually had a Union that we could trust; we found out the hard way that this was not necessarily the case.
There are still a few Bassa reps left with a mind of their own, trust me, but they are in a minotiry and will probably remain silent until re-elections for the top table take place.
In the meantime, Bassa have been taking £16 amonth from us under the premise that Unite are ensuring alsorts of scurities regarding high court solicitors and insuranace policies that actually pay out occasionally.
Most of us supported Tony Blair, alas I am still waiting to see the weapons of mass destruction. The same with Bassa, dodgy intelligence and an arrogance that even had me fooled for a short while.
We used to disagree a lot on the Bassa forum, Rosiegirl, but I admire you for admitting that you are in an unenviable place; a place that most others would not appreciate how bad it can be.
You may have noticed an eerie silence from the rest of the Bassa Committee, perhaps they don't all agree with the Tomato Guy!!??!
We all thought for many years that we actually had a Union that we could trust; we found out the hard way that this was not necessarily the case.
There are still a few Bassa reps left with a mind of their own, trust me, but they are in a minotiry and will probably remain silent until re-elections for the top table take place.
In the meantime, Bassa have been taking £16 amonth from us under the premise that Unite are ensuring alsorts of scurities regarding high court solicitors and insuranace policies that actually pay out occasionally.
Most of us supported Tony Blair, alas I am still waiting to see the weapons of mass destruction. The same with Bassa, dodgy intelligence and an arrogance that even had me fooled for a short while.
We used to disagree a lot on the Bassa forum, Rosiegirl, but I admire you for admitting that you are in an unenviable place; a place that most others would not appreciate how bad it can be.
You may have noticed an eerie silence from the rest of the Bassa Committee, perhaps they don't all agree with the Tomato Guy!!??!
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I would offer a lot to this airline if they only returned some sort of a guarantee All they are offering reassurances and intentions with regards to Mixed Fleet which means nothing. We would have nothing to stand on when we are dealing with a different management in the future.
Removing ST for legally withdrawing our labour was wrong. It was nothing but a punishment. We have always been in a majority of a strike. Why are they insisting on punishing those of us who actually felt that a strike was necessary and nothing a last resort? ST must be returned immediately without any sanctions. And, I'm thinking about our commuters who live all around the world. I have myself commuted from different parts of the world but that never would have affected my choice to strike. I still would have gone on strike. Before you say anything, some of our commuting flight crew live far away too.
Removing ST for legally withdrawing our labour was wrong. It was nothing but a punishment. We have always been in a majority of a strike. Why are they insisting on punishing those of us who actually felt that a strike was necessary and nothing a last resort? ST must be returned immediately without any sanctions. And, I'm thinking about our commuters who live all around the world. I have myself commuted from different parts of the world but that never would have affected my choice to strike. I still would have gone on strike. Before you say anything, some of our commuting flight crew live far away too.
ST IS NOT A RIGHT IT IS A DISCRETIONARY BENEFIT GIVEN AND TAKEN AWAY BY THE COMPANY.
If you take part in strike action be it legal, illegal, majority, minority whatever and the company says that they won't benefit you with discretionary ST then you, as an adult, need to factor that into your decision. If you believe your Union when it tells you that it can 'get it back in 5 minutes' and then subsequently find out they were lying, more fool you.
As for commuters, sorry, they, be they pilots, engineers, cabin crew, ground staff whoever, should have thought even longer and harder, read the ST rules and contacted the company prior to making their X and following blind, useless legal advice from a Union that doesn't know its ar$e from its elbow.
The appeal case means nothing? This entire sorry mess that BASSA have got you into hinged around the legal, contractual obligation for the company to man aircraft to BASSA's 'agreements' thus, when it was changed, led to the dreaded imposition. What followed after was down to the direct inability of your Union to negotiate in an adult, grown up manner. As alluded to by the learned judge. The BASSA barge has been well and truly, legally sunk.
So, please spare us the sanctimonious BASSA rhetoric of 'small battle, big war' it's been repeated too many times. Look after the undecided, see how best to salvage something from the mess the current (non BA employed) BASSA secretary and board have got you into and look to the future.
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ROSIEGIRL
Resiging leaves you free to make choices. And if bassa actually managed their memberships lists properly, you'll also eventually be free of silly emails/flyers and texts.
As to the possibility of integration, sorry but I'm going to make you very upset .... the Captain was correct.
Resiging leaves you free to make choices. And if bassa actually managed their memberships lists properly, you'll also eventually be free of silly emails/flyers and texts.
As to the possibility of integration, sorry but I'm going to make you very upset .... the Captain was correct.
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Torc
If that is true (I have no reason to doubt you but don't know you obviously) then I am very upset. The new fleet is the "elephant in the corner" (is that the right phrase?) and apart from everything else that threatens me and my family going forward.
The captain on the trip also seemed very genuine and straight. I won't say the name but he wasn't happy with some stuff BA had done but on this point was quite clear.
I remember that night (although a bit full of red wine) thinking that I wished that I had had at least one such conversation (whichever way it went) with on eof my senior reps.
That was just when I was wobbling and it really made me think, and before and since I hear so many stories of spin and nonsence and not to mention today.
aaaarh hair tearing out and I love my hair!
If that is true (I have no reason to doubt you but don't know you obviously) then I am very upset. The new fleet is the "elephant in the corner" (is that the right phrase?) and apart from everything else that threatens me and my family going forward.
The captain on the trip also seemed very genuine and straight. I won't say the name but he wasn't happy with some stuff BA had done but on this point was quite clear.
I remember that night (although a bit full of red wine) thinking that I wished that I had had at least one such conversation (whichever way it went) with on eof my senior reps.
That was just when I was wobbling and it really made me think, and before and since I hear so many stories of spin and nonsence and not to mention today.
aaaarh hair tearing out and I love my hair!
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rosiegirl
I need some protection. What if a passenger reports me or I get on a disiplinary?
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Rosiegirl,
A warm welcome to you. I admire you for admitting getting it wrong by listening to the wrong people. It takes a lot of guts to do that - well done.
I've not been in a union for approx. a year (due to the unions' behaviour). I've been a member of both branches at various times, but I couldn't justify wasting (in my opinion) my money anymore. I know you're worried about diciplinaries etc, but as others have already posted, you can take any BA employee with you if such a thing should happen (God forbid, obviously). I would like to say though, that during my time at BA, I've asked for help from the union on a few occasions (not diciplinaries), and they refused to help. Make of that what you wish, of course, but I wasn't impressed in the slightest.
Also, I'll send you a link if I can find it, about the offer on the table last year. That offer would've seen MF integrated, so TorC and the Captain you spoke with are both telling the truth.
I wish you the very best. It may be a scary world out there, but there are more crew out there who think the same as you do, than you realise. If I could fix it, I would, but unfortunately I don't have such powers.
A warm welcome to you. I admire you for admitting getting it wrong by listening to the wrong people. It takes a lot of guts to do that - well done.
I've not been in a union for approx. a year (due to the unions' behaviour). I've been a member of both branches at various times, but I couldn't justify wasting (in my opinion) my money anymore. I know you're worried about diciplinaries etc, but as others have already posted, you can take any BA employee with you if such a thing should happen (God forbid, obviously). I would like to say though, that during my time at BA, I've asked for help from the union on a few occasions (not diciplinaries), and they refused to help. Make of that what you wish, of course, but I wasn't impressed in the slightest.
Also, I'll send you a link if I can find it, about the offer on the table last year. That offer would've seen MF integrated, so TorC and the Captain you spoke with are both telling the truth.
I wish you the very best. It may be a scary world out there, but there are more crew out there who think the same as you do, than you realise. If I could fix it, I would, but unfortunately I don't have such powers.
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Sorry to have upset you Rosiegirl .... but it's all been discussed here (and on the previous chapters of this thread) and is all documented somewhere. I think I even have a copy somewhere of the offer that had MF off the table.
I think many of your/my colleagues would have benifetted from chats similar to those that you had downroute. Sadly, many were far too heavily influenced by the rubbish that bassa was putting around to avail themselves of the opportunity. I think we are yet to see the emotional fallout from all of this, it's going to be very tough for many people to come to terms with what's been done to them by those purporting to represent them. Still, at least you've found a place to talk.
Can I just ask though, where does your apparent fear of being reported by a passenger/put on a disciplinary come from? I had similar thoughts when I resigned from bassa but then realised that in 12 years at BA I'd managed not to get into any trouble, that there are no-win/no-fee options should they be needed, and most importantly that I can speak for myself.
Leave your hair alone! :-)
I think many of your/my colleagues would have benifetted from chats similar to those that you had downroute. Sadly, many were far too heavily influenced by the rubbish that bassa was putting around to avail themselves of the opportunity. I think we are yet to see the emotional fallout from all of this, it's going to be very tough for many people to come to terms with what's been done to them by those purporting to represent them. Still, at least you've found a place to talk.
Can I just ask though, where does your apparent fear of being reported by a passenger/put on a disciplinary come from? I had similar thoughts when I resigned from bassa but then realised that in 12 years at BA I'd managed not to get into any trouble, that there are no-win/no-fee options should they be needed, and most importantly that I can speak for myself.
Leave your hair alone! :-)