BA CC industrial relations (current airline staff only)
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From the Guardian...
"The bitter industrial dispute between British Airways and Unite resembles Life on Mars, the BBC drama set in the 1970s, according to Les Bayliss, one of the candidates in the union's leadership election, which begins next week.
In a thinly disguised dig at his leadership rival, Len McCluskey, who has been a vocal supporter of the strike, he told the Guardian that the union lost the year-long dispute a "long time ago". "It [the dispute] has been disastrous," he said. "It has lowered our standing and reputation. We need to make sure it never happens again."
His outspoken criticism of the way Unite leaders have handled the BA dispute will further inflame an election campaign that has exposed the infighting and factionalism that continues to plague Unite.
Bayliss is presenting himself as the moderate candidate in the election to become general secretary of Unite, the UK's largest union. His main rival, McCluskey, is supported by Tony Woodley, one of the union's two current joint general secretaries. Bayliss is backed by Derek Simpson, the other joint general secretary.
Referring to the cult television series – centred around a police officer who is hit by a car in 2006 and wakes to find himself working at the same police station in 1973 – he said the BA dispute demonstrated that the union militancy that characterised the 1970s and 1980s did not work. "We have nothing to show for it [the BA dispute]," he said. "It shows that as an organisation we have got to focus on issues in a different way. It was like looking at an episode of Life on Mars with Willie Walsh on one side and Tony Woodley on the other."
"The bitter industrial dispute between British Airways and Unite resembles Life on Mars, the BBC drama set in the 1970s, according to Les Bayliss, one of the candidates in the union's leadership election, which begins next week.
In a thinly disguised dig at his leadership rival, Len McCluskey, who has been a vocal supporter of the strike, he told the Guardian that the union lost the year-long dispute a "long time ago". "It [the dispute] has been disastrous," he said. "It has lowered our standing and reputation. We need to make sure it never happens again."
His outspoken criticism of the way Unite leaders have handled the BA dispute will further inflame an election campaign that has exposed the infighting and factionalism that continues to plague Unite.
Bayliss is presenting himself as the moderate candidate in the election to become general secretary of Unite, the UK's largest union. His main rival, McCluskey, is supported by Tony Woodley, one of the union's two current joint general secretaries. Bayliss is backed by Derek Simpson, the other joint general secretary.
Referring to the cult television series – centred around a police officer who is hit by a car in 2006 and wakes to find himself working at the same police station in 1973 – he said the BA dispute demonstrated that the union militancy that characterised the 1970s and 1980s did not work. "We have nothing to show for it [the BA dispute]," he said. "It shows that as an organisation we have got to focus on issues in a different way. It was like looking at an episode of Life on Mars with Willie Walsh on one side and Tony Woodley on the other."
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Hello Jollyjon, I'm not clear why you think you have been asked to give anything up...
You were offered financial security for the future not once, but twice, in the form of the Fixed Monthly Duty Payment and subsequently in the Top Up payment.
Both offered you the guarantee that no matter what WW fleet looked like in the future, you would always earn the same as you do now (rising with inflation).
There were also talks about route transfers so BA were definitely prepared to do some deals around what WW would look like in the future.
So you've been offered guarantees about both your pay and your lifestyle meaning MFH was never a threat to you in any way... other than perhaps the size of WW as people left through natural attrition.
Please help me to understand why you are scared, and so mistrustful? Why do you think BA has got it in for you?
BTW with regards to CRM/atmosphere on board etc, I've seen no evidence of it on EF. I think all the sniping must be a WW thing. And as for GF they are having a whale of a time just getting on with the job they love.
Why can't you?
Regarding salary, I have nothing to hide with my views. It's my opinion that I (can only spk for myself I suppose) would be happy to be part of some negotiation that offered me some sort of future finacial security in exchange for a salary reduction. Whilst it's all a bit of risk, with no real guarantee for a future job, then I'm standing firm.
Both offered you the guarantee that no matter what WW fleet looked like in the future, you would always earn the same as you do now (rising with inflation).
There were also talks about route transfers so BA were definitely prepared to do some deals around what WW would look like in the future.
So you've been offered guarantees about both your pay and your lifestyle meaning MFH was never a threat to you in any way... other than perhaps the size of WW as people left through natural attrition.
Please help me to understand why you are scared, and so mistrustful? Why do you think BA has got it in for you?
BTW with regards to CRM/atmosphere on board etc, I've seen no evidence of it on EF. I think all the sniping must be a WW thing. And as for GF they are having a whale of a time just getting on with the job they love.
Why can't you?
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Bassa to hold consultative ballot
Just posted on the Bassa forum from DH, that it has been decided that there are enough changes to BA’s original proposal, for an electronic ballot to be conducted by the ERBS, as swiftly as possible.
I'm sure somebody will post the actual message in time.
I'm sure somebody will post the actual message in time.
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Neutral tone, member choice, no doubt under instruction, dispute over.
Now for the arguing on here about what constitutes significant change. Please just accept that it is, for the benefit of all. If everybody cares about BA, then leave it alone.
Now for the arguing on here about what constitutes significant change. Please just accept that it is, for the benefit of all. If everybody cares about BA, then leave it alone.
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Fingers crossed...
I for one really hope that this deal is acceptable and we can draw a line under this whole business. Not bothered if staff travel gets returned, in fact I think I'd prefer it if it was.
Here's hoping.
Here's hoping.
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Hi everyone, literally just back from Holborn 5 minutes ago, where nearly all of the reps were able to hear from Tony Woodley and then discuss the way forward. I am writing this very quickly because I know a lot of you are desperate to know what is happening and I don’t want remain silent overnight. Please excuse the rushed grammar.
It was decided after much debate that there are enough changes to BA’s original proposal, last voted upon in July, to warrant going back to you again for you to decide whether BA have come up with an offer that is acceptable to end this dispute. The ballot will be conducted electronically, but this time by the ERBS. It will be conducted as swiftly as possible.
The committee and reps felt that it was important that you had the final say over a matter as crucial as this - as you know, back in 2007 we took a decision without consultation and hindsight taught us that was a mistake. We know this will prolong the uncertainty but it is important that everyone’s views are lodged through a consultative ballot. The details of BA’s offer will be with you asap, it is best you get them in their entirety so you can make a sensible and rational decision rather than the odd leak here and there which can be distorted.
It is now up to you, if you vote against the offer the dispute goes on if you vote to accept the dispute is over.
I know there is not much real news in this message and you will all be anxious to get into the nitty gritty of BA’s offer but please keep patience with us for a few more days while we prepare all the paperwork for this consultative ballot.
Rgds Duncan
It was decided after much debate that there are enough changes to BA’s original proposal, last voted upon in July, to warrant going back to you again for you to decide whether BA have come up with an offer that is acceptable to end this dispute. The ballot will be conducted electronically, but this time by the ERBS. It will be conducted as swiftly as possible.
The committee and reps felt that it was important that you had the final say over a matter as crucial as this - as you know, back in 2007 we took a decision without consultation and hindsight taught us that was a mistake. We know this will prolong the uncertainty but it is important that everyone’s views are lodged through a consultative ballot. The details of BA’s offer will be with you asap, it is best you get them in their entirety so you can make a sensible and rational decision rather than the odd leak here and there which can be distorted.
It is now up to you, if you vote against the offer the dispute goes on if you vote to accept the dispute is over.
I know there is not much real news in this message and you will all be anxious to get into the nitty gritty of BA’s offer but please keep patience with us for a few more days while we prepare all the paperwork for this consultative ballot.
Rgds Duncan
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Our website clearly states that we are not a union because, as yet, we are not. However, should we wish to become one in the future TULRCA is what we need to comply with, so we are.
Additionally as BA have promised that it will take years and years for MF to grow to any substantial size, you are never going to get any collective negotiating agreements as you will only be a small part of the workforce
Edited for my error
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The only restriction in our contracts is in relation to the existing nsp and collective agreements. There are NO restrictions on us joining ANY union.
This is just one of many misconceptions about our t&s's...
PCCC would be the ideal choice for me personally, as I'm sure it will be for many other MF crew.
This is just one of many misconceptions about our t&s's...
PCCC would be the ideal choice for me personally, as I'm sure it will be for many other MF crew.
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as the new Mixed Fleet Crew have no entitlement to union membership nor have they any entitlement to collective bargaining
There is very little chance that BASSA will feature as the recognised union for MF, though this can be forced should enough members of MF join and vote for recognition.
Unfortunately for the PCCC you are going to have to grow your membership base from existing Cabin Crew only as the new Mixed Fleet Crew have no entitlement to union membership nor have they any entitlement to collective bargaining
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upperdeckpurser
Unfortunately for the PCCC you are going to have to grow your membership base from existing Cabin Crew only as the new Mixed Fleet Crew have no entitlement to union membership nor have they any entitlement to collective bargaining
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Pornpants and legandawing
I suggest you read this from an unhappy Mixed Fleeter
Hey guys,
Bit upset and sad coz I wasted 2 years of waiting for the BA cabin crew contract and after carefully reading it and showed it to a lawyer decided to reject it.
Hopefully this topic will help for people who are hesitating accepting the offer or not.
Here are the questions that my lawyer asked from BA (you can all see in your contract):
Re Clause 3:
- This provision appears to contract me out of the employment benefits
to which I would otherwise be entitled under the Collective Agreements
negotiated between BA and trade unions.
- What benefits can I expect to receive under the Collective
Agreements or other terms agreed between BA and the trade unions? When will you be notifying me which of these benefits will be incorporated into my contract?
- Will I be eligible for the benefits negotiated in future after
signing the contract? Or does this provision preclude me from all
benefits under Collective Agreements unless notified in writing by BA?
- Is this provision mandatory? Or is it negotiable?
Re Clause 13:
- This provision refers to 'temporary lay off' during which - at any
time due to reduction in business - the company can require me not to
work, without pay.
- Is this provision mandatory or negotiable?
- What do you mean by 'temporary' - what length of time is considered
'temporary'?
- Historically how often has this happened?
And the answer from BA:
Thank your for your queries in relation to your Mixed Fleet contract which I provide reponses to below:
With respect to Clause 3 of your contract:
-The existing collective agreements in place for cabin crew do not apply to you and are not incorporated into your contract of employment.
-You have no entitlement to these collective agreements being incorporated into your contract of employment.
-There are no collective agreements that will apply to you under the terms of your contract of employment unless you are, at some future date, told that there is a collective agreement that expressly applies to you.
-The terms, conditions and some of the benefits of your employment with British Airways are as set out in your contract of employment and onboarding pack.
-These terms and conditions are not negotiable.
With respect to Clause 13 of your contract
-The temporary layoff clause is part of your contract of employment
-The terms and conditions of your contract of employment are not negotiable
-The duration of any temporary lay off period will be determined by the operational requirements at the time
-Historically, this has, to my recollection of the last 10 years, never happened.
Black and white for all questions you may have.
No rumor, no lies...this is just what they want!
Hey guys,
Bit upset and sad coz I wasted 2 years of waiting for the BA cabin crew contract and after carefully reading it and showed it to a lawyer decided to reject it.
Hopefully this topic will help for people who are hesitating accepting the offer or not.
Here are the questions that my lawyer asked from BA (you can all see in your contract):
Re Clause 3:
- This provision appears to contract me out of the employment benefits
to which I would otherwise be entitled under the Collective Agreements
negotiated between BA and trade unions.
- What benefits can I expect to receive under the Collective
Agreements or other terms agreed between BA and the trade unions? When will you be notifying me which of these benefits will be incorporated into my contract?
- Will I be eligible for the benefits negotiated in future after
signing the contract? Or does this provision preclude me from all
benefits under Collective Agreements unless notified in writing by BA?
- Is this provision mandatory? Or is it negotiable?
Re Clause 13:
- This provision refers to 'temporary lay off' during which - at any
time due to reduction in business - the company can require me not to
work, without pay.
- Is this provision mandatory or negotiable?
- What do you mean by 'temporary' - what length of time is considered
'temporary'?
- Historically how often has this happened?
And the answer from BA:
Thank your for your queries in relation to your Mixed Fleet contract which I provide reponses to below:
With respect to Clause 3 of your contract:
-The existing collective agreements in place for cabin crew do not apply to you and are not incorporated into your contract of employment.
-You have no entitlement to these collective agreements being incorporated into your contract of employment.
-There are no collective agreements that will apply to you under the terms of your contract of employment unless you are, at some future date, told that there is a collective agreement that expressly applies to you.
-The terms, conditions and some of the benefits of your employment with British Airways are as set out in your contract of employment and onboarding pack.
-These terms and conditions are not negotiable.
With respect to Clause 13 of your contract
-The temporary layoff clause is part of your contract of employment
-The terms and conditions of your contract of employment are not negotiable
-The duration of any temporary lay off period will be determined by the operational requirements at the time
-Historically, this has, to my recollection of the last 10 years, never happened.
Black and white for all questions you may have.
No rumor, no lies...this is just what they want!
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StudentInDebt
Wrong, in the UK every employee is entitled to be a member of a trade union. If represented by a trade union a member will be represented through collective bargaining once the employer recognises the union through voluntary or statutory means. At least one of the offers put to the cabin crew included recognition of MF crew as a bargaining group to be represented by UNITE so I would imagine that would be BA's preference going forward.
There are no collective agreements that will apply to you under the terms of your contract of employment unless you are, at some future date, told that there is a collective agreement that expressly applies to you.
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So according to the Guardian, BA have back tracked on the disciplineries and are allowing ACAS to review them.
How pleased will the parties on the receiving end of these disputes be with this.
How pleased will the parties on the receiving end of these disputes be with this.
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legandawing
The only restriction in our contracts is in relation to the existing nsp and collective agreements. There are NO restrictions on us joining ANY union.
This is just one of many misconceptions about our t&s's...
PCCC would be the ideal choice for me personally, as I'm sure it will be for many other MF crew.
This is just one of many misconceptions about our t&s's...
PCCC would be the ideal choice for me personally, as I'm sure it will be for many other MF crew.
There are no collective agreements that will apply to you under the terms of your contract of employment unless you are, at some future date, told that there is a collective agreement that expressly applies to you.
PCCC would be the ideal choice for me personally, as I'm sure it will be for many other MF crew.
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Why the shear contempt and hatred to the PCCC? If they aren't a threat to BASSA why worry about them. Nobody is forcing you join them. Joys of a democracy, strike/don't strike, PCCC/BASSA, you choose.