BA CC industrial relations (current airline staff only)
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fruitbat, take a bow for the Stuffiest Post of the Thread award. 
Yes we all know that the Captain is God in every airline, and nowhere did hula write, intend or insinuate otherwise.
We also know that in practice itīs the CSD who manages the cabin, while keeping the captain - the 'Buck Stops Here' person -informed of all relevant developments in timely and accurate manner.
Yes we all know that the Captain is God in every airline, and nowhere did hula write, intend or insinuate otherwise.
We also know that in practice itīs the CSD who manages the cabin, while keeping the captain - the 'Buck Stops Here' person -informed of all relevant developments in timely and accurate manner.
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My thought was that the CSD would rotate on different flights between the cabins, if they were in First for that flight then the First purser would move to Club and be responsible for the Cabin checks under the supervision of the CSD (and Captain!).
When I said "helped" I meant helped to achieve high standards of service by the CSD, who you imply has raised the standards in Club. As a traveller in First, there is sometimes an inconsistent service, the CSD being involved throughout the cabins would quite possibly raise the standard everywhere. (Though I accept you can't be everywhere and Prem pax may be miffed)
I don't see a problem with the CSD working from Traveller from a FD perspective, after all I'm usually told that "******* will be taking over during rest and will be at Door 4L"
P.S. It's nice to be looking forward for a change
When I said "helped" I meant helped to achieve high standards of service by the CSD, who you imply has raised the standards in Club. As a traveller in First, there is sometimes an inconsistent service, the CSD being involved throughout the cabins would quite possibly raise the standard everywhere. (Though I accept you can't be everywhere and Prem pax may be miffed)
I don't see a problem with the CSD working from Traveller from a FD perspective, after all I'm usually told that "******* will be taking over during rest and will be at Door 4L"
P.S. It's nice to be looking forward for a change
Last edited by malcolmf; 8th May 2011 at 14:48.
It is not a difficult concept - Bill Francis Senior cabin crew manager, Keith Williams his manager ( in effect).
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It's nice to be looking forward for a change
I think that what you suggest sounds interesting, in principle.
Unfortunately, due to restrictive working practices and agreements we are unable to do this. Because we bid for working positions on seniority, it would throw a cat amongst the pigeons to suddenly decide on the day that I would like to work in First. Being honest, I can't imagine many CSDs opting to work in WT voluntarily!! Also, the WT service is hard to break away from if needed whereas the Club/First service is.
I understand where you are coming from and think that alternating/rotating between First and Club would be a positive thing. I think that our presence is more important in the premium cabins especially during the service to maintain consistency and high standards.
Interestingly, LGW operate with the CM working in Club and one Purser in WT and MF operate with the CSM in Club and no Pursers at all.
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I said nothing other than the statement from hula that 'the CSD is the onboard manager' isn't strictly true. As a moderator i'm surprised you claim the Captain is 'God'. In charge yes, but 'God' no.
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Fruitbat, you are doing a really good job of making yourself look silly.
BA refer to CSDs, CSMs CMs on long-haul and CSDs, CSMs and Pursers on short-haul as the cabin manager. They manage the cabin crew and the service and ultimately report to the captain who is incharge of the aircraft.
Obviously when on board or down-route the Captain is the ultimate manager of the SCCM and the rest of the crew because he is the most senior member on board.
Did you not know that a Manager can also have a Manager!!?
Somehow, knowing that you must be intelligent to do your job, I think you did!
BA refer to CSDs, CSMs CMs on long-haul and CSDs, CSMs and Pursers on short-haul as the cabin manager. They manage the cabin crew and the service and ultimately report to the captain who is incharge of the aircraft.
Obviously when on board or down-route the Captain is the ultimate manager of the SCCM and the rest of the crew because he is the most senior member on board.
Did you not know that a Manager can also have a Manager!!?
Somehow, knowing that you must be intelligent to do your job, I think you did!
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Of course that is what I meant. I wasn't meaning to 'lord it up'. Just a lot of crew seem to think the CSD is their only onboard manager. It's difficult behind the locked flightdeck door, as the Captain is not seen as much as perhaps he/she should be in a perfect world.
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Fruitbat
To be honest, I think you make a good point of reminding us that the Captain is ultimately in charge.
I've flown with a good few CSDs who rather seem to think it's their aircraft and their crew (indeed saying as much in their PA's) thus creating more of a divide - but to be fair, there are equally many excellent CSD's who recognise the chain of command and just get on with working as one team.
I've flown with a good few CSDs who rather seem to think it's their aircraft and their crew (indeed saying as much in their PA's) thus creating more of a divide - but to be fair, there are equally many excellent CSD's who recognise the chain of command and just get on with working as one team.
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fruitbat
In practice, how many Captains do you see actively managing the crew on an aircraft? Of those who notice something which offends them, don't they generally summon the SCCM to the pointy end and ask them to pass on their thoughts? How many do you suppose take an active interest in the service? Can you hand on heart say that you know what the service in World/Euro traveller even looks like? The Captain is the Commander of the aircraft but the SCCM manages the cabin while the Captain manages the SCCM if he feels inclined. Much the same as the Captain of the Queen Mary 2 commands his ship but the Catering manager ensures that the customers have everything they have paid for. I very much doubt that the merchant seaman need to have this debate about whether the Catering manager or the individual restaurant managers are allowed to be referred to as managers but for some reason there are a very few insecure posters on this thread who really struggle with an aircraft having more than one manager who is also rewarded financially. The clue is in the job title - Cabin Service Director, Cabin Manager, Customer Service Manager!
We are all in this together, working as one team and we all have our own different role to fulfil. Mine is to manage the Cabin and the Cabin crew team.
And managing the crew.
We are all in this together, working as one team and we all have our own different role to fulfil. Mine is to manage the Cabin and the Cabin crew team.
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From Tunbridge Wells
I am sure I have been guilty of saying over the PA "I'd like to introduce my crew to you..." Perhaps you can explain to me how this could create a divide so that I don't commit such heinous crime again.
their crew (indeed saying as much in their PA's) thus creating more of a divide
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If this adds anything to the rather off topic debate I usually finish my PAs from the flight deck with a phrase along the lines of "I will leave you in the capable hands of Betty/Otter girl and her team"
The CC work for me from checkin to check out. The main crew also work for the SCCM. I work for the base captain and am part of his team.
Regards
The CC work for me from checkin to check out. The main crew also work for the SCCM. I work for the base captain and am part of his team.
Regards
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I don't think anyone has a problem with the chain of command.The capitan has ultimate responsibility/say ,in any matter on board,but how can someone who is responsible for the flying of the aircraft become involved in the run of the mill day to day opperation in the cabin that is why the responsibilty of running the service is delegated to the sccm. CabinCrew see very little of the flight crew during a flight thus for them their manager is the sccm,however they know that the person at the front is the capitan of the ship and has ultimate say.
I would say that it is appreciated by all when the cap.comes to the door to say goodbye to all the passengers.
I would say that it is appreciated by all when the cap.comes to the door to say goodbye to all the passengers.
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fruitbat, as you experience either cockpit or cabin crew (you donīt specify whom you're referring to) not always coming to you soon enough, you may well benefit from looking into a fairly straightforward yet very effective management tool called 'situational leadership'.
Rather than managing everybody the same way, you adapt your style to the individual.
Ascertain where your crew member is in the following diagram, and use the appropriate management style.
It works.
Link
Now please everyone, do step away from the willy waving and return to the subject of industrial relations.
Thank you-