BA CC industrial relations (current airline staff only)
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Ottergirl
From Tunbridge Wells - I feel that the focus on baggage tags is something of a smoke screen. A baggage tag can not bully or intimidate, it is just a tag whatever colour it is, likewise a pen. The inference a person places on the tag is a different matter and that is personal choice. You can choose to be bothered by them, or not!
The majority of crew would find it difficult I suspect - every one has their own reaction. Some have even requested or have moved base.
DH on Radio today
Just heard that Duncan Holley will be giving an interview to Simon Calder on LBC.97.3 radio today at 1400.
If you dont live in the London area you can get LBC on Sky channel 0112
Will nice to hear his view .
If you dont live in the London area you can get LBC on Sky channel 0112
Will nice to hear his view .
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Did anyone listen to Duncan's interview? I couldn't bear to spoil my Sunday but I thought someone on here may have had a few minutes to spare for his words of wisdom. Seeing that Simon Calder is such a big fan of BASSA (not) I thought the exchange may have been lively.
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Litebulbs to Bettygirl
But you had a full engagement with an opposing view, without feeling bullied by a bag tag.
The crew member in question probably thought that you had taken BA's 13 pieces of silver. But the conversations you had and will have again, will be the cure. Much is said about the right to manage, but peer to peer engagement will move this on.
I think I will just say engagement again, just to engage those that are not engaged.
The crew member in question probably thought that you had taken BA's 13 pieces of silver. But the conversations you had and will have again, will be the cure. Much is said about the right to manage, but peer to peer engagement will move this on.
I think I will just say engagement again, just to engage those that are not engaged.
However ( there had to be a however!! ), I have to disagree with you here. Please tell me if I'm wrong, but did I pick up from somewhere that you used to be BA CC a few years ago. If so, you will realise that with some crew, it's completely IMPOSSIBLE to explain anything to them if its the opposite of what they are thinking. I have spent literally hours and hours with individuals explaining like BG, OG and others all kinds of things, all of which had one major thing in common, in that they were all FACTS. It was in 99% of cases a total waste of time.
I'd like to share with you all a couple of true stories that I believe sum up what is the 'thinking' of most of the Bassa 'team'.
The first happened last summer. I was on a long day trip and the person working with me at the front ( last position to go - I'm quite used to it now and don't take it personally!! ) had flown with BA around 18 months and was not even 22 years old. They had a Bassa lanyard on for all to see in the briefing room but not a name badge in sight, not on their jacket or blouse/shirt. We had a few crewing problems, so I was unable to speak to them until we were on the a/c. I explained that the lanyard was unacceptable to which they counteracted with ' nobody has said anything to me before' (Yawn) This was when the wearing of the lanyards was rife. I asked them to turn it around, and get it changed ASAP. But why no name badges? 'I've lost them ALL, and didn't think to replace any, even when the first was lost' Yet as I explained to them,they had been PROACTIVE enough to go down to Bassa office to get a lanyard. The sad thing was, they really didn't get the irony of what they had done.
We talked about the ongoing dispute and they freely admitted they knew little of what was going on, but had DECIDED to SUPPORT Bassa unconditionally anyway. Why I asked. Because I have had two part time jobs since leaving school, and in both, I have had horrible managers who intimidated and bullied me (her words). I feel my manager in BA is the same as these two and thus I need Bassa 'for protection'. Remember this person had been with BA for 18 months and was not yet 22
Was this a one-off. Very sadly no. How does this happen - who knows. But perhaps the following will explain a little.
My second story is about a lovely crew member who I flew with on a 3 day trip around 3-4 years ago. They had been with a lo-cost carrier for 2 years and BA for 2 as well. ( They were in their mid 20's) We chatted about the differences between the companies and the attitudes of the crews. They were gobsmacked at how SO many crew in BA seemed workshy and would do anything to get out of any extra work either on board or working flights. 'I tell you, they said, they would last 5 mins (thats a real 5mins not a Bassa 5 mins), working for a lo-cost airline'. They explained about if we were doing a link ( A there and back to eg GVA after a nightstop) how a lot would try anything to get out of it even though it was worth money. ( This was in the last year before we moved to T5, when pretty much everything was late into T1/T4 if you all remember). After much conversation, I asked them why THEY thought this happened. ' Oh its very simple. There's simply NO FEAR in BA. I've noticed crew can pretty much do as they want within or even sometimes not within reason, whether it be uniform standards, work on board, talking or dealing with customers, pilots,ops, scheduling, their SCCM, cabin crew managers etc etc. They are on their own agenda, in fact its as though they are self-employed.'
They reiterated that they didn't mean or advocate 'managing by fear',
far from it, but simply a lot of crew had no fear of pretty much anything detrimental happening to them. But why I asked.
They laughed, and simply said BASSA!
Bassa was their daddy, and if they had ANY problems, Bassa would and did sort it out.
WOW!!. I WAS TOTALLY GOBSMACKED. Here was someone in their mid 20's who had summed up to me perfectly IMHO what the the problem was. For years I had tried to work it out and here was the simple answer.
So Litebulbs, I admire your idea but I'm sorry, NO, its too late ( for me anyway)
I want to make something VERY CLEAR before I go. We have mostly great crew, but sadly we do have a reasonable number who fall into the above bracket.
Finally I apologise for rambling on, but I've thought for a long time about posting this thread. I thought this gave me the opportunity.
PS. I've just reread this twice and it makes me very sad and even upset. It just didn't ever have to come to this, but thanks mostly to DH it has. That individual ( I refuse to call him a man) has a lot to answer for.
JT
Last edited by JUAN TRIPP; 13th Feb 2011 at 22:33. Reason: Too many reasons to mention
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Ah yes, and just when I thought I may be questioning myself, up comes Mr. Holley with another gem. I just knew it was only a matter of time before Egypt was mentioned. Must say this is starting to get funny, except DH is sadly, very serious
Ballot cancelled, feeling downhearted?
Most of you, by now will have received a letter from Lenny McCluskey, confirming that our current ballot has had to be cancelled due to BA’s leadership’s preference for yet more “dirty tricks” style tactics, rather than simply listening to their own staff
So are we downhearted, full of doom and gloom? Errr ... actually no, not in the slightest, and neither should you be; there is absolutely no need.
This is a different phase of the dispute that we are now in, it’s no longer about rushing into strike dates; it is all about sending a message. A message about our pride, our defiance, a message simply saying that despite all their bullying, threats and punishments, we as crew are all still here and our spirit will not be broken.
You no longer need actual strikes to pressure the company - ballots can have the same effect, since they carry the threat of strikes. It would now appear that a simple, well-placed cross on the ballot paper removes some of the need to actually lose money and stand on picket lines. The intransigent British Airway board’s complete lack of willingness to move beyond the tired and already discredited Willy Walsh era is kindly doing the rest for us!
Why? Because every time a ballot is announced - and they will be, on and on until a fair solution has been found - it has the same effect as going on strike. The continued uncertainty keeps passengers away in their droves, and leaves BA a house divided internally, without the morale needed to deliver the top-class service we all want. We simply need to have good, strong ballot results every time, the higher the percentage the better, to keep this pressure on. So go ahead BA legal, congratulate yourselves on your “brilliant” strategy.
Will they injunct us again on our next one?
Of course it’s possible, but all it will mean is that once again, instead of all this being settled long ago, their unimaginative and belligerent approach means our dispute is now entering its second summer. The ongoing uncertainty will now sadly continue to affect bookings for the future... first it will be the busy summer period, if they decide to injunct once again, then it’s Christmas for a third year.
How much longer can a team that calls themselves our “leadership” continue to ignore its own employees - the very people on whom the British Airways brand is built upon - let alone its own customers?
Mr Williams has an opportunity, and indeed a duty, to prove to the world that he is different to his predecessor and will resurrect the good name of British Airways - to make it what it should and can be, not what it has become.
An opportunity to not follow in the footsteps of Gordon Brown when he took over as Prime Minister because he simply become a paler version of what had already gone before. Mr Williams must now show the courage to be different to Walsh, gain the respect of his staff and not be afraid to be seen to be fair.
If he doesn’t then the ballots will continue on and on, because we are never giving up until we get justice.
The people of Egypt showed that if you don’t take your people with you when in power, the people could take your power away.
If we hear nothing positive from Mr Williams expressing an interest in talking, then your new ballot is ready to be sent.
.... Oh, and by the way, this time it will have even more items on it. We will of course need to cover yet more breaches of our agreements that have taken place; they may have thought they had gotten away with those, but they haven’t.
Keep strong, keep together keep calm and carry on; it’s working but most of all keep the faith.
Most of you, by now will have received a letter from Lenny McCluskey, confirming that our current ballot has had to be cancelled due to BA’s leadership’s preference for yet more “dirty tricks” style tactics, rather than simply listening to their own staff
So are we downhearted, full of doom and gloom? Errr ... actually no, not in the slightest, and neither should you be; there is absolutely no need.
This is a different phase of the dispute that we are now in, it’s no longer about rushing into strike dates; it is all about sending a message. A message about our pride, our defiance, a message simply saying that despite all their bullying, threats and punishments, we as crew are all still here and our spirit will not be broken.
You no longer need actual strikes to pressure the company - ballots can have the same effect, since they carry the threat of strikes. It would now appear that a simple, well-placed cross on the ballot paper removes some of the need to actually lose money and stand on picket lines. The intransigent British Airway board’s complete lack of willingness to move beyond the tired and already discredited Willy Walsh era is kindly doing the rest for us!
Why? Because every time a ballot is announced - and they will be, on and on until a fair solution has been found - it has the same effect as going on strike. The continued uncertainty keeps passengers away in their droves, and leaves BA a house divided internally, without the morale needed to deliver the top-class service we all want. We simply need to have good, strong ballot results every time, the higher the percentage the better, to keep this pressure on. So go ahead BA legal, congratulate yourselves on your “brilliant” strategy.
Will they injunct us again on our next one?
Of course it’s possible, but all it will mean is that once again, instead of all this being settled long ago, their unimaginative and belligerent approach means our dispute is now entering its second summer. The ongoing uncertainty will now sadly continue to affect bookings for the future... first it will be the busy summer period, if they decide to injunct once again, then it’s Christmas for a third year.
How much longer can a team that calls themselves our “leadership” continue to ignore its own employees - the very people on whom the British Airways brand is built upon - let alone its own customers?
Mr Williams has an opportunity, and indeed a duty, to prove to the world that he is different to his predecessor and will resurrect the good name of British Airways - to make it what it should and can be, not what it has become.
An opportunity to not follow in the footsteps of Gordon Brown when he took over as Prime Minister because he simply become a paler version of what had already gone before. Mr Williams must now show the courage to be different to Walsh, gain the respect of his staff and not be afraid to be seen to be fair.
If he doesn’t then the ballots will continue on and on, because we are never giving up until we get justice.
The people of Egypt showed that if you don’t take your people with you when in power, the people could take your power away.
If we hear nothing positive from Mr Williams expressing an interest in talking, then your new ballot is ready to be sent.
.... Oh, and by the way, this time it will have even more items on it. We will of course need to cover yet more breaches of our agreements that have taken place; they may have thought they had gotten away with those, but they haven’t.
Keep strong, keep together keep calm and carry on; it’s working but most of all keep the faith.
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He is just completely mad.
From reading posts on here and on the SLF thread, I have been led to believe that if negotiations have broken down and BA can see no way of coming to an agreement, they can just send out contracts and give us 90 days to sign or leave, similar to what the London Fire Brigade was going to do.
Well in my opinion the time has come.
I have already signed an agreement and although I am sad about Mixed Fleet being started and I would have preferred an integrated solution, I do think it is a fair agreement. I imagine any contract would have to be the same as the agreement that well over a thousand of us have already signed and in that case would be fair.
As far as I am concerned, enough is enough, just send them out BA, bring it on!! I am just so fed up of this now and just want to be able to get on and do my job.
From reading posts on here and on the SLF thread, I have been led to believe that if negotiations have broken down and BA can see no way of coming to an agreement, they can just send out contracts and give us 90 days to sign or leave, similar to what the London Fire Brigade was going to do.
Well in my opinion the time has come.
I have already signed an agreement and although I am sad about Mixed Fleet being started and I would have preferred an integrated solution, I do think it is a fair agreement. I imagine any contract would have to be the same as the agreement that well over a thousand of us have already signed and in that case would be fair.
As far as I am concerned, enough is enough, just send them out BA, bring it on!! I am just so fed up of this now and just want to be able to get on and do my job.
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Bettygirl
He is just completely mad.
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I know you will all get the hump with me, but DH has made the ultimate employment sacrifice. I get to read that site every now and then and I think that there is no cure there. But, I do not work for BA and it is not my T&C's at risk.
Juan, we have had a healthy debate on the issues and at times it has been tense, but you have always debated in a manner that deserves attention and respect.
Juan, we have had a healthy debate on the issues and at times it has been tense, but you have always debated in a manner that deserves attention and respect.
Last edited by Litebulbs; 14th Feb 2011 at 06:47.
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DH is also not practising what he preaches (no surprise there)
He (nor BASSA) have endeared the hearts and minds of everyone in BA. The way this dispute is continuing, they never will.
This dispute has to be wrapped up now.
I totally agree Betty Girl.
Also I will add, that although Mixed Fleet will get larger, that will mainly be down to new routes that now become viable, the "Legacy, Heritage, Old, First
," crew - you can choose the one you want to use - will, through natural attrition, get smaller. Though if the 90 days is used, get smaller quicker!
The people of Egypt showed that if you don’t take your people with you when in power, the people could take your power away.
This dispute has to be wrapped up now.
they can just send out contracts and give us 90 days to sign or leave
Also I will add, that although Mixed Fleet will get larger, that will mainly be down to new routes that now become viable, the "Legacy, Heritage, Old, First
," crew - you can choose the one you want to use - will, through natural attrition, get smaller. Though if the 90 days is used, get smaller quicker!
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The people of Egypt showed that if you don’t take your people with you when in power, the people could take your power away.
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Duncan Holley, never knowingly under self-aggrandised. It was, I suppose, only a matter of time before he linked the severity of his "struggle" to the regime changes taking place in the middle east.
LB,
To be fair, I don't think, per se, that DH made the ultimate employment sacrifice. That would imply that he was faced with an unpalatable but morally imperative choice which, once made in favour of his union work, cost him his employment. He could, of course, have turned up for work and operated within the framework provided for his union duties. That he chose not to leads me to feel it more suicide than sacrifice. Apologies if that seems pedantic but the word has noble implications for me and I cannot associate nobility with the actions of this man.
LB,
To be fair, I don't think, per se, that DH made the ultimate employment sacrifice. That would imply that he was faced with an unpalatable but morally imperative choice which, once made in favour of his union work, cost him his employment. He could, of course, have turned up for work and operated within the framework provided for his union duties. That he chose not to leads me to feel it more suicide than sacrifice. Apologies if that seems pedantic but the word has noble implications for me and I cannot associate nobility with the actions of this man.
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MrBunker
In my experience, reps at the level of DH, were full time. I never saw it written down anywhere, but it seemed to be accepted. As I have said before, we will all be able to read about it soon enough, when the ET gives its verdict.
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But if you unilaterally withdraw from the facilites agreement which grants you the option of working full time as a union rep then who is to blame if you find the benefits of the agreement are no longer extended to you?
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Hi LB,
Duncan chose to not turn up for a rostered flying duty so, whilst I suspect you're broadly correct in your statement of his full-time representative status, he was still expected to fly now and again (if only, one presumes, to maintain recency). Duncan seems to have believed that he could use his union duties to trump his contractual obligation to work - the company disagreed. Thus far, it seems that the appeals procedures have agreed with the company in this respect.
Cheers
MrB
Duncan chose to not turn up for a rostered flying duty so, whilst I suspect you're broadly correct in your statement of his full-time representative status, he was still expected to fly now and again (if only, one presumes, to maintain recency). Duncan seems to have believed that he could use his union duties to trump his contractual obligation to work - the company disagreed. Thus far, it seems that the appeals procedures have agreed with the company in this respect.
Cheers
MrB
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Rise up BASSA people!
At the PCCC we are getting emails from people who are still members of Unite, despite not supporting them! They are asking about what services we can provide, particularly legal advice. However they continue to pay their £15 per month to BASSA, who will undoubtedly NOT support them if they are non-strikers. DH has said as much. The PCCC costs nothing yet they continue to pay £15 to an organisation which provides nothing!
It is time for cabin crew themselves to stop blaming everyone else and start realising that they hold the key. The only way to stop this dispute is for cabin crew, each and every one, to leave BASSA. They have to stop funding this monster. They have to stop feeding it. And the only way is to cut off it's money supply.
Until they do, this dispute will drag on and on. And as DH says, balloting is now their main form of attack. The only defence against that is getting this Union derecognised, due to holding a minority of the workforce.
Come on cabin crew. We all have to stand up and be counted now. Leave BASSA if you want to end this dispute.
BA reps are (or were) rostered in the normal way they should have put in a de-roster form in advance of publication and, if approved, scheduling would roster around these dates.
Ad hoc meeting often come up and a rep could then submit a deroster form post publication.
DH had no right to deroster himself without going through this process.
He believed he was above the rest of cabin crew (and reps) and was untouchable - BA clearly thought different!
ps he also didn't fly for a period of some 18 months previously until BA made him do a 'back to work course'.
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You no longer need actual strikes to pressure the company - ballots can have the same effect, since they carry the threat of strikes. It would now appear that a simple, well-placed cross on the ballot paper removes some of the need to actually lose money and stand on picket lines.
.... Oh, and by the way, this time it will have even more items on it ....
You couldn't make it up.
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Are the majority of the sensible Cabin Crew not as fed up as the rest of us are that DH continues to use world changing moments in his rhetoric and thus comparing the inane actions of BASSA to the hardships of others who have quite rightly won their place at the forefront of world news?
Comparing a long running industrial dispute over the imposition of one removed crew member to the flying complements with the forced removal of an oppresive/aggresive police state in another country by people willing to risk their very lives is, once again, contemptable.
The sad fact is Duncan that they, the people of Egypt, are an oppressed people ruled by a dictator through secret police brutality and you are representing employees of a company that is just trying to get your department to accept savings that all other departments have accepted. Where is the comparison? Please, Duncan, we know you read or get read these posts, give your self serving, puerile rhetoric a rest.
Comparing a long running industrial dispute over the imposition of one removed crew member to the flying complements with the forced removal of an oppresive/aggresive police state in another country by people willing to risk their very lives is, once again, contemptable.
The sad fact is Duncan that they, the people of Egypt, are an oppressed people ruled by a dictator through secret police brutality and you are representing employees of a company that is just trying to get your department to accept savings that all other departments have accepted. Where is the comparison? Please, Duncan, we know you read or get read these posts, give your self serving, puerile rhetoric a rest.
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Er, isn't that illegal?
Holding a ballot with an already stated intention of taking no action regardless of it's result. It's a new one on me thats for sure.
..of course boy crying wolf comes to mind also, it wont work for long before PAX start to ignore union threats to BA more than they already do currently.
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Drunken Wally
The reason BASSA are now 'planning' to carry out lots of fake ballots, (maybe to be followed by a really hard-hitting leaflet campaign and some fairly loud whispering) is something that has been quite clear to the majority of us for some time, and has obviously only just dawned on the workshy Bassamentalists......
They are categorically and entirely UNABLE to carry out a LEGAL ballot.
For a union this is about as floppy as you can get....
This they finally realise and accept. There are rules to follow which require attention to detail and a moderate level of intelligence;unfortunately it usually takes the latter to realise you lack the former.
They are categorically and entirely UNABLE to carry out a LEGAL ballot.
For a union this is about as floppy as you can get....
This they finally realise and accept. There are rules to follow which require attention to detail and a moderate level of intelligence;unfortunately it usually takes the latter to realise you lack the former.