British Airways vs. BASSA (current Airline Staff Only)
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Colonel White,
I find your comments abit unfair.
Us mere Cabin Crew are not moaning at no pay rise or whatever. This offer gives us pay rises and incremental rises etc which is very good and noone is complaining about that.
What people who read this thread and outsiders reading about the dispute need to understand is whether people are for or against the strike, this MIXED FLEET - is a threat to our jobs! BA is offering us pay rises for the next few years, but bringing in new crew on low pay and conditions - the worry is in a few years time BA could easily transfer our good earning routes which mean we earn less (as a large part of our salary is so variable - depending on our trips)
We do have assurances - but what people want is more watertight agreements to ensure that they CANNOT transfer all the high earning routes like that.
Also this redeployment agreement people go on about, having read up on it abit more, why are they introducing it??? It means that because the job descriptions on Mixed Fleet (especially for CSM) are different that they could in the future say our fleets are redundant take Mixed Fleet or leave.
For some people the salary on Mixed Fleet would mean a 40% pay reduction - some may say the salary is fair and we are overpaid - well they can say that from their ivory towers. We shouldn't have to apologise for being well paid!!! Everyone should be, and shouldn't have that cut, to fund bonuses of managers.
Now I haven't had a personality change, am not Jekkl and Hide, as I used to think BAs proposal was reasonable - and I STILL think some parts of it are... but I think some parts of it are a huge blow to those of us who want a career at BA - especially us in our 20s or 30s who joined pre-Mixed Fleet... as the threat of having to move to Mixed Fleet on MUCH lower pay or leave in a few years is reality - and many Main Crew are practically excluded the oppurtunity of promotion on Mixed Fleet unless they work for £2.40 an hour for a year... also I don't really like the thought of working as crew without good union protection!
This Mixed Fleet was only supposed to be 500 crew - why now 1250... that may mean the whole 10 years to get 40% thing will change too.
Maybe I am wrong... just see it from our point of view!
I find your comments abit unfair.
Us mere Cabin Crew are not moaning at no pay rise or whatever. This offer gives us pay rises and incremental rises etc which is very good and noone is complaining about that.
What people who read this thread and outsiders reading about the dispute need to understand is whether people are for or against the strike, this MIXED FLEET - is a threat to our jobs! BA is offering us pay rises for the next few years, but bringing in new crew on low pay and conditions - the worry is in a few years time BA could easily transfer our good earning routes which mean we earn less (as a large part of our salary is so variable - depending on our trips)
We do have assurances - but what people want is more watertight agreements to ensure that they CANNOT transfer all the high earning routes like that.
Also this redeployment agreement people go on about, having read up on it abit more, why are they introducing it??? It means that because the job descriptions on Mixed Fleet (especially for CSM) are different that they could in the future say our fleets are redundant take Mixed Fleet or leave.
For some people the salary on Mixed Fleet would mean a 40% pay reduction - some may say the salary is fair and we are overpaid - well they can say that from their ivory towers. We shouldn't have to apologise for being well paid!!! Everyone should be, and shouldn't have that cut, to fund bonuses of managers.
Now I haven't had a personality change, am not Jekkl and Hide, as I used to think BAs proposal was reasonable - and I STILL think some parts of it are... but I think some parts of it are a huge blow to those of us who want a career at BA - especially us in our 20s or 30s who joined pre-Mixed Fleet... as the threat of having to move to Mixed Fleet on MUCH lower pay or leave in a few years is reality - and many Main Crew are practically excluded the oppurtunity of promotion on Mixed Fleet unless they work for £2.40 an hour for a year... also I don't really like the thought of working as crew without good union protection!
This Mixed Fleet was only supposed to be 500 crew - why now 1250... that may mean the whole 10 years to get 40% thing will change too.
Maybe I am wrong... just see it from our point of view!
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this MIXED FLEET - is a threat to our jobs! BA is offering us pay rises for the next few years, but bringing in new crew on low pay and conditions - the worry is in a few years time BA could easily transfer our good earning routes which mean we earn less (as a large part of our salary is so variable - depending on our trips)
Bassa cried wolf, just as they are doing now.
I have seen on CF that some say they want the MTP/Guaranteed minimum payment for allowances guaranteed in their basic - and then in the same post they say they want to be rewarded for working so hard on long trips, and to be paid accordingly. Cabin crew need to decide what they want and communicate it to Bassa. Bassa then need to communicate that to BA.
In other words, Engage!
Also this redeployment agreement people go on about, having read up on it abit more, why are they introducing it??? It means that because the job descriptions on Mixed Fleet (especially for CSM) are different that they could in the future say our fleets are redundant take Mixed Fleet or leave.
some people the salary on Mixed Fleet would mean a 40% pay reduction - some may say the salary is fair and we are overpaid - well they can say that from their ivory towers. We shouldn't have to apologise for being well paid!!! Everyone should be, and shouldn't have that cut, to fund bonuses of managers.
And the savings aren't there to produce bonuses for managers - they are there to improve profitability and create dividends for shareholders (our ultimate employers). Like it or lump it, they are the reason we have a job.
Ditto for me!
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Hand Solo,
Ill ask again as my last post has been removed.
Re post 810. Is it true that the 'BB3', those pilots who commented on facebook about the calibre of club passengers and male cabin crew, are back at work with no further action.
Where have you heard/read this?
I hope it is either not true, or if true then some of the lesser cabin crew disciplines are being reconsidered.
Ill ask again as my last post has been removed.
Re post 810. Is it true that the 'BB3', those pilots who commented on facebook about the calibre of club passengers and male cabin crew, are back at work with no further action.
Where have you heard/read this?
I hope it is either not true, or if true then some of the lesser cabin crew disciplines are being reconsidered.
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I have no idea whether or not the 3 pilots are back at work, I am sure that they will have been dealt with by the same disciplinary process as the cabin crew that were suspended for facebook related idiocy.
If they have been found to have in a fashion that broke the B&H rules than the punishment will have been identical to those CC guilty of similar actions. Each case will be judged on its individual merits and each staff member will be dealt with accordingly.
Do not make the mistake that all the breaches of the code were of the same degree or magnitude. Just because all the comments were on facebook does not make them the same crime. To suggest so is, at best naive, at worst an at designed to do nothing but stir up emotions.
All the crew involved have been through a union approved disciplinary action where they were represented and advised by their union reps. Disciplinaries being the one thing that BA are de-rostering union reps for.
If they have been found to have in a fashion that broke the B&H rules than the punishment will have been identical to those CC guilty of similar actions. Each case will be judged on its individual merits and each staff member will be dealt with accordingly.
Do not make the mistake that all the breaches of the code were of the same degree or magnitude. Just because all the comments were on facebook does not make them the same crime. To suggest so is, at best naive, at worst an at designed to do nothing but stir up emotions.
All the crew involved have been through a union approved disciplinary action where they were represented and advised by their union reps. Disciplinaries being the one thing that BA are de-rostering union reps for.
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If the pilots are not dismissed, again it proves to me that I have made a mistake by backing BA. This will prove that BA are trying to erode the cabin crew union. Thanx to those crew who have sent me a message regards to my first post, we are not alone.I think many have woken up to BA's true proposals, we were nearly fooled into thinking that what we were doing was supporting BA, but in fact we were just destroying ourselves.
I just hope that the crew who went on strike will will forgive me for my mistakes. I have come to the conclusion that BA just want to screw anyone and everyone whether you went into work or not, the pilots, well just in it for themselves, UNITE have made terrible mistakes, but they still have our best interest at hart..
I can not believe the people we have become over this dispute. As someone who would not strike, I am now preparing myself to do that, other departments interfering with each other, friendships made and lost, the list goes on.. It is me who has to look in the mirror every day and see if I made the correct choice or not, at the moment I do not believe that I did..
I just hope that the crew who went on strike will will forgive me for my mistakes. I have come to the conclusion that BA just want to screw anyone and everyone whether you went into work or not, the pilots, well just in it for themselves, UNITE have made terrible mistakes, but they still have our best interest at hart..
I can not believe the people we have become over this dispute. As someone who would not strike, I am now preparing myself to do that, other departments interfering with each other, friendships made and lost, the list goes on.. It is me who has to look in the mirror every day and see if I made the correct choice or not, at the moment I do not believe that I did..
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There are some people here that definately do not see the big real picture...
If some of you want to be forgiven, as you consider coming to work a mistake, then go to bassa forum and crew forum. There is absolutely noone here to forgive you for such a thing.
So instead of polluting this thread, go and write somewhere else, where rubbish and applogolies as such, are widely accepted.
Well done for seeing ba's true colours... you would of course see them more brightly, if you remove your bassa sunglasses.
Bassa's power and propaganda, are gone...and hopefully this tumor, and all the cells that are part of it, will be soon surgically removed. Once and for all.
If some of you want to be forgiven, as you consider coming to work a mistake, then go to bassa forum and crew forum. There is absolutely noone here to forgive you for such a thing.
So instead of polluting this thread, go and write somewhere else, where rubbish and applogolies as such, are widely accepted.
Well done for seeing ba's true colours... you would of course see them more brightly, if you remove your bassa sunglasses.
Bassa's power and propaganda, are gone...and hopefully this tumor, and all the cells that are part of it, will be soon surgically removed. Once and for all.
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bhx01
Absolutely your choice, as long as you are aware of the consequences of course.
Not sure why you need to make the statements you do though.
seems an odd thing to state to me!
Not sure why you need to make the statements you do though.
just hope that the crew who went on strike will will forgive me for my mistakes.
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Juan.
Thank you for your reply, albeit somewhat patronising and propoganda. However, the question was for Hand Solo who posted that the three pilots were back on line, in a slightly contentious post which has since disappeared.
But on that issue, the FaceBook posts written by the three and transcribed in the national press were insultive to both crew and passengers. Without any doubt they brought the name of BA into disrepute.
Now I have already advocated that not all the cabin crew suspendees are innocent and suggested that they should be dealt with appropriately, however some of the suspendees are for writing comments as innocent as 'OMG' on FaceBook.
Where is the equity in punishment between members of the so called 'one team.' Indeed there have been other dubious decisions made by BA recently which do little to enforce the 'one team' mantra.
Thank you for your reply, albeit somewhat patronising and propoganda. However, the question was for Hand Solo who posted that the three pilots were back on line, in a slightly contentious post which has since disappeared.
But on that issue, the FaceBook posts written by the three and transcribed in the national press were insultive to both crew and passengers. Without any doubt they brought the name of BA into disrepute.
Now I have already advocated that not all the cabin crew suspendees are innocent and suggested that they should be dealt with appropriately, however some of the suspendees are for writing comments as innocent as 'OMG' on FaceBook.
Where is the equity in punishment between members of the so called 'one team.' Indeed there have been other dubious decisions made by BA recently which do little to enforce the 'one team' mantra.
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I belong to cabin crew 89 not bassa. I have always believed that bassa are to militant for me and cabin crew 89 are more level headed.. What worries me is that a branch like cabin crew 89 who have always been very pro BA, are now so against BA. Things must be dire, for cabin crew 89 to do such a turn.
As for which forum I should post, I thought we lived in a democracy. I guess this forum is not much better than any other, as if you do not agree with the majority or change your mind, you are no longer welcome..
I guess I will be seen as a Judas from both sides. Comments directed at me will enable other members in my position to see how sallow some of us have become.
I respect whatever choice crew make, I just hope the rest can as well..
As for which forum I should post, I thought we lived in a democracy. I guess this forum is not much better than any other, as if you do not agree with the majority or change your mind, you are no longer welcome..
I guess I will be seen as a Judas from both sides. Comments directed at me will enable other members in my position to see how sallow some of us have become.
I respect whatever choice crew make, I just hope the rest can as well..
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I guess this forum is not much better than any other, as if you do not agree with the majority or change your mind, you are no longer welcome..
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Where is the equity in punishment between members of the so called 'one team.'
But if you want to work yourself and others up into some kind of Daily Mailesque anger carry on.
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If you are after a career in BA, you will be disappointed because of Mixed Fleet.
Given the recruitment appears to be seeking those in leadership positions within the business, I would expect the "ground days" or future part-time flying roles to be integrated with part-time ground roles so that those leading the cabin service are wholly integrated with the complete service offering.
Innovative for sure.
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Juan.
Stop, and read the post.
It was written because Hand Solo wrote a post suggesting that the 'BB3' had got off scot free. I wanted clarification from Hand Solo, but you picked up the baton with mere rhetoric.
The 'judgement' element was written to hopefully justify the post to the mods on account of my first question being removed, as has Hand Solo's original post (albeit by himself or the mods).
Let me re-write the questions, A) have the BB3 been allowed to return to work with no further action as suggested in a now deleted post. B) Where is the equity in that decision when cabin crew remain supended for lesser crimes, ie writting 'OMG' in relation to a list of pilots names?
Frankly I don't give a gnats fart about the Daily Mailesque frenzie you suggest I'm after, just some clarification in the first instance.
Stop, and read the post.
It was written because Hand Solo wrote a post suggesting that the 'BB3' had got off scot free. I wanted clarification from Hand Solo, but you picked up the baton with mere rhetoric.
The 'judgement' element was written to hopefully justify the post to the mods on account of my first question being removed, as has Hand Solo's original post (albeit by himself or the mods).
Let me re-write the questions, A) have the BB3 been allowed to return to work with no further action as suggested in a now deleted post. B) Where is the equity in that decision when cabin crew remain supended for lesser crimes, ie writting 'OMG' in relation to a list of pilots names?
Frankly I don't give a gnats fart about the Daily Mailesque frenzie you suggest I'm after, just some clarification in the first instance.
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Re Heat.
I wonder how many of our many cabin crew managers are applying for the role of CSM on Mixed Fleet, as it appears there may be duplication of their role and a cull on their numbers.
I wonder how many of our many cabin crew managers are applying for the role of CSM on Mixed Fleet, as it appears there may be duplication of their role and a cull on their numbers.
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bhx01
When we are faced with important decisions in our lives it is important to get all of the facts before we take the plunge and decide what to do. I think the outcome of the next strike ballot will be very interesting if there is one. I think that at last people are starting to wake up to the fact that they need to do the research and decide for themselves rather than ticking the box that they are told to tick. It seems that even Unite have decided that we should have a say based on the truth, that is why we are being given a lot of information with the ballot papers and a "free vote" on the deal. I'm sorry but it isn't going to get any better.
Please don't go on strike for me!!
When we are faced with important decisions in our lives it is important to get all of the facts before we take the plunge and decide what to do. I think the outcome of the next strike ballot will be very interesting if there is one. I think that at last people are starting to wake up to the fact that they need to do the research and decide for themselves rather than ticking the box that they are told to tick. It seems that even Unite have decided that we should have a say based on the truth, that is why we are being given a lot of information with the ballot papers and a "free vote" on the deal. I'm sorry but it isn't going to get any better.
Please don't go on strike for me!!
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PC767
I know that you asked a question of Hand Solo, I chose to answer that with the more general point that the "BB3" would have gone through the same disciplinary process as the CC involved in Facebook offences. It is the nature of a bulletin board that this happens, the thread moves on.
You then asked a question as to where equity was in the treatment of members of one team. That implies that there has been some inequity in the treatment of some employees but provide no evidence that there has been any. In fact you leap from asking if the BB3 are back at work to asking the question about equity of treatment.
Even this fails to point out that question B is contingent on the answer to question A being Yes.
Finally you try to insult me with:
Before you do that again I suggest a quick look at a dictionary, rhetoric is the art of effective or persuasive speaking or writing, especially the exploitation of figures of speech and other compositional techniques.
If you feel that my postings are too effective and that somehow undermines your poor grasp of communication, I apologise. However, i suggest you are a little more careful with your language, after all we can only respond to what we see on the page, not what is in your head.
Now can we move on please?
I know that you asked a question of Hand Solo, I chose to answer that with the more general point that the "BB3" would have gone through the same disciplinary process as the CC involved in Facebook offences. It is the nature of a bulletin board that this happens, the thread moves on.
You then asked a question as to where equity was in the treatment of members of one team. That implies that there has been some inequity in the treatment of some employees but provide no evidence that there has been any. In fact you leap from asking if the BB3 are back at work to asking the question about equity of treatment.
Let me re-write the questions, A) have the BB3 been allowed to return to work with no further action as suggested in a now deleted post. B) Where is the equity in that decision when cabin crew remain supended for lesser crimes, ie writting 'OMG' in relation to a list of pilots names?
Finally you try to insult me with:
but you picked up the baton with mere rhetoric.
If you feel that my postings are too effective and that somehow undermines your poor grasp of communication, I apologise. However, i suggest you are a little more careful with your language, after all we can only respond to what we see on the page, not what is in your head.
Now can we move on please?
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Redeployment Agreement
Midman, you say
'As I understand it, the redeployment agreement was changed because the old one placed too much of a potential financial burden on the company, at a time when we needed to show the city we were reducing the burden of our costly industrial agreements. The new agreement isn't just for cabin crew, it's for the rest of the company too. Can you show me any company that has a better redeployment arrangement than this one?'
In his latest webchat Bill Francis was asked the following:-
1. What changes does he intend to make?
2. What would be the new time limit for Careerlink?
[3. Would the new policy prevent cabin crew from transferring to Mixed Fleet (or any other department) taking their current basic pay and terms & conditions with them as is currently the case?
4. Would any changes affect all BA employees?
5. If any changes required employees to sign a new contract which reduced their basic pay would this consequently reduce their pension accrual (build up rate) and also affect their pay for pension purposes thereby reducing their final salary pension if in NAPS?
Here’s his answer
'the redeployment agreement is one of our corporate policies that affects all employees in BA. In the offer it confirms that discussions need to continue at the BA Forum and EPC and come to a conclusion within a month. They started back in June'09.
Until that time I think it would be inappropriate to comment, to give them the best chance of progress'.
I don't feel reassured at all by that answer!
'As I understand it, the redeployment agreement was changed because the old one placed too much of a potential financial burden on the company, at a time when we needed to show the city we were reducing the burden of our costly industrial agreements. The new agreement isn't just for cabin crew, it's for the rest of the company too. Can you show me any company that has a better redeployment arrangement than this one?'
In his latest webchat Bill Francis was asked the following:-
1. What changes does he intend to make?
2. What would be the new time limit for Careerlink?
[3. Would the new policy prevent cabin crew from transferring to Mixed Fleet (or any other department) taking their current basic pay and terms & conditions with them as is currently the case?
4. Would any changes affect all BA employees?
5. If any changes required employees to sign a new contract which reduced their basic pay would this consequently reduce their pension accrual (build up rate) and also affect their pay for pension purposes thereby reducing their final salary pension if in NAPS?
Here’s his answer
'the redeployment agreement is one of our corporate policies that affects all employees in BA. In the offer it confirms that discussions need to continue at the BA Forum and EPC and come to a conclusion within a month. They started back in June'09.
Until that time I think it would be inappropriate to comment, to give them the best chance of progress'.
I don't feel reassured at all by that answer!
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PC767 - I said they weren't being sacked, that's all. You have added your own interpretation to my comments. Making insulting comments towards unnamed passengers on Facebook is stupid, as is making generally offensive comments towards cabin crew, but by no means are those actions comparable to disseminating the names of specific individuals for the sole purpose of intimidating them. Nor should management be swayed by a deliberately orchestrated campaign of mock offence by the militant brotherhood, hot on the heels of the deliberate leaking of the offending posts to the Daily Mirror by BASSA. That behaviour was no better than footballers hounding the ref waving an imaginary card in the air, and BA were right to ignore it.
bhx01 - I do not believe for one moment you have 'backed BA' and are now regretting your actions. The tone and content of your posts are identical to the BASSA missives your leaders write, heavy on misguided trust in BA and shame at your behaviour, with a dig at the pilots to boot. I'll grant you your a sophisticated phoney, but a phoney nonetheless.
bhx01 - I do not believe for one moment you have 'backed BA' and are now regretting your actions. The tone and content of your posts are identical to the BASSA missives your leaders write, heavy on misguided trust in BA and shame at your behaviour, with a dig at the pilots to boot. I'll grant you your a sophisticated phoney, but a phoney nonetheless.