British Airways vs. BASSA (current Airline Staff Only)
Join Date: May 2010
Location: maidenhead
Posts: 941
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SlideBustle,
Have you read BF's latest web chat on the BA crew forum. I think that some of the answers there might help to stop you worrying.
I think it comes down to who you believe and I am choosing to believe BF because the union has put far too much spin on everything just to encourage crew to strike in the past.
Some of the union rep suspentions were apparently because of a fight at Waterside between BASSA and Amicus reps last year. BA witnessed it and promply suspended them and it was that, that caused the two unions to make up and be best friends in the fight against BA. Alot of this strike in my opinion has been about the damaged egos of union reps.
Anyway that is my opinion and why I choose to trust the company a bit more than the union.
Have you read BF's latest web chat on the BA crew forum. I think that some of the answers there might help to stop you worrying.
I think it comes down to who you believe and I am choosing to believe BF because the union has put far too much spin on everything just to encourage crew to strike in the past.
Some of the union rep suspentions were apparently because of a fight at Waterside between BASSA and Amicus reps last year. BA witnessed it and promply suspended them and it was that, that caused the two unions to make up and be best friends in the fight against BA. Alot of this strike in my opinion has been about the damaged egos of union reps.
Anyway that is my opinion and why I choose to trust the company a bit more than the union.
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: london
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There is a good article in the FT today about the heckling Willie Walsh received at the AGM from cabin crew (and others):
FT.com / Companies / Airlines - BA board faces volley of attacks at AGM
[you may have to register to read it]
Max
FT.com / Companies / Airlines - BA board faces volley of attacks at AGM
[you may have to register to read it]
Max
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: London
Posts: 252
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
GS-Alpha and HiFlyer,
I totally agree with you, with regards to BASSA did deal with Mixed Fleet in TOTALLY the wrong way - which they knew about almost 2 years ago!!!! (First of all the rumours we were to be outsourced then Columbus document etc etc!) but they didn't do anything about it until recently. But constantly saying NO to offers including offers to get rid of Mixed Fleet by making concessions on our fleets - so that's why I don't trust a strike - as BASSA have made a lot of mistakes recently and they are probably part of the problem as to why this offer is not as good!! If they have got worse... will they get better? I doubt it.... I mean who knows? Maybe BA management will compromise abit more - maybe even offer what was on the table last year (one can wish can't they!!!) but after the not so very good support for the strike - I don't think so.
It is reasonable in this climate. I LOVE my job, and to me, the most important thing at the moment, in this climate is job security... so that's why a strike is scary... both to go on strike and what it will do to the company financially!!!
I would be more than willing to sign the dotted line IF they produced a matrix of routes - or maybe not routes (incase they cancelled certain routes - they can't guarantee routes) or earnings (like High earning could be defined as say allowances of £X of more for example) and do it proportion wise.
BF did actually suggest this before, infact he has done a few times!
Bettysgirl,
Have read the webchat (missed it so couldn't post questions!),
BF does seem genuine, and yes he had allayed the fears of the redeployment etc etc.... so I suppose my fears are not as bad about it now...
I don't think the proposal is bad - just a few more CONTRACUALLY BINDING AGREEMENTS are needed for me... but then again, I suppose we could accept and then negotiate that after... And if BASSA procrastrinate this the PCCC could if they got the representation.
I totally agree with you, with regards to BASSA did deal with Mixed Fleet in TOTALLY the wrong way - which they knew about almost 2 years ago!!!! (First of all the rumours we were to be outsourced then Columbus document etc etc!) but they didn't do anything about it until recently. But constantly saying NO to offers including offers to get rid of Mixed Fleet by making concessions on our fleets - so that's why I don't trust a strike - as BASSA have made a lot of mistakes recently and they are probably part of the problem as to why this offer is not as good!! If they have got worse... will they get better? I doubt it.... I mean who knows? Maybe BA management will compromise abit more - maybe even offer what was on the table last year (one can wish can't they!!!) but after the not so very good support for the strike - I don't think so.
It is reasonable in this climate. I LOVE my job, and to me, the most important thing at the moment, in this climate is job security... so that's why a strike is scary... both to go on strike and what it will do to the company financially!!!
I would be more than willing to sign the dotted line IF they produced a matrix of routes - or maybe not routes (incase they cancelled certain routes - they can't guarantee routes) or earnings (like High earning could be defined as say allowances of £X of more for example) and do it proportion wise.
BF did actually suggest this before, infact he has done a few times!
Bettysgirl,
Have read the webchat (missed it so couldn't post questions!),
BF does seem genuine, and yes he had allayed the fears of the redeployment etc etc.... so I suppose my fears are not as bad about it now...
I don't think the proposal is bad - just a few more CONTRACUALLY BINDING AGREEMENTS are needed for me... but then again, I suppose we could accept and then negotiate that after... And if BASSA procrastrinate this the PCCC could if they got the representation.
Join Date: May 2010
Location: maidenhead
Posts: 941
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Slide Bustle.
Just in case you or anyone reading your post is wondering where the post you are refering to has gone!!!! The poster removed it and put it on the passenger and SLF thread because I think he thought he was not allowed to post it here.
Just in case you or anyone reading your post is wondering where the post you are refering to has gone!!!! The poster removed it and put it on the passenger and SLF thread because I think he thought he was not allowed to post it here.
Está servira para distraerle.
That of course is as exactly as it all happened miss, sorry to have been sick all over the thread but it's been a little bumpy and thank you for the succour and assistance trolley which was much appreciated.
Bye
Bye
It was cavortingcheetah who removed their own post, and ported it across to the SLF forum. The bit that SlideBustle was commenting on was, I believe, this:
Yes, it is a possibility, but what can employees do about it? Zip!
I wouldn't be at all surprised to see BA cease to exist in its present form fairly soon and to be taken off shore entirely. WW's just got to sort out the pension fund and then, once the airline is in Madrid, he'll be able to staff it entirely using people from South and Central America, with the exception of Brasil of course, using the favoured nation status that Spain offers to its former overseas colonies which will allow him to circumvent EEC labour protection laws.
Está servira para distraerle.
Sorry, let me just clear this up because some get quite hot here and there.
I posted the article in today's FT so that those of you you do not want to register could read it. max motor made mention of the article. But I posted in the wrong thread.
The paragraph thus:
'I wouldn't be at all surprised to see BA cease to exist in its present form fairly soon and to be taken off shore entirely. WW's just got to sort out the pension fund and then, once the airline is in Madrid, he'll be able to staff it entirely using people from South and Central America, with the exception of Brasil of course, using the favoured nation status that Spain offers to its former overseas colonies which will allow him to circumvent EEC labour protection laws.'
Were my own words at the end of the article. Since I am not actively flying for an airline at the moment I am not entitled to use this thread. Once I realised I had posted on the wrong thread I removed the post to the SLF thread where less worthy denizens of the airways are allowed to fester.
My apologies for any inconvenience caused to readers and Board of Censors.
I posted the article in today's FT so that those of you you do not want to register could read it. max motor made mention of the article. But I posted in the wrong thread.
The paragraph thus:
'I wouldn't be at all surprised to see BA cease to exist in its present form fairly soon and to be taken off shore entirely. WW's just got to sort out the pension fund and then, once the airline is in Madrid, he'll be able to staff it entirely using people from South and Central America, with the exception of Brasil of course, using the favoured nation status that Spain offers to its former overseas colonies which will allow him to circumvent EEC labour protection laws.'
Were my own words at the end of the article. Since I am not actively flying for an airline at the moment I am not entitled to use this thread. Once I realised I had posted on the wrong thread I removed the post to the SLF thread where less worthy denizens of the airways are allowed to fester.
My apologies for any inconvenience caused to readers and Board of Censors.
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: motorway services
Posts: 118
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Cavortingcheetah, the mods make the rules, I expect your posts will disappear soon. FWIW I think the 'taking BA offshore' in the FT is a nonsense, the jobs will not all be based in Madrid, there is a market to be served in the UK and you can't do that from Spain.
Back to the thread topic, it is going quiet on here now as people 'take in' the offer from BA, many BASSA supporters are ditching the union, many crew are upset that they hadn't resigned earlier, they could then have accepted the offer directly.
Back to the thread topic, it is going quiet on here now as people 'take in' the offer from BA, many BASSA supporters are ditching the union, many crew are upset that they hadn't resigned earlier, they could then have accepted the offer directly.
Join Date: May 2010
Location: maidenhead
Posts: 941
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Cavortingcheetah
The way your post was posted made it look like it were the FT's words about us all loosing our jobs not your words which explains alot!!!
Of course he can't use South American crew for slots out of LHR you need to be able to live and work in the uk to work here. You can't crew aircraft at LHR going all over the world with South American crew.
I think you are just scaremongering maybe.
The way your post was posted made it look like it were the FT's words about us all loosing our jobs not your words which explains alot!!!
Of course he can't use South American crew for slots out of LHR you need to be able to live and work in the uk to work here. You can't crew aircraft at LHR going all over the world with South American crew.
I think you are just scaremongering maybe.
Está servira para distraerle.
Betty Girl.
Right of reply I suppose.
I put a dotted line at the end of the article in question and then wrote my own words. There's no way my words could have been interpreted as being part of an FT article.
Right of reply I suppose.
I put a dotted line at the end of the article in question and then wrote my own words. There's no way my words could have been interpreted as being part of an FT article.
Join Date: May 2010
Location: maidenhead
Posts: 941
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well Carvortingcheetar it looks like SideBustle thought so and so did Strikemaster82, if you read their posts, and also on first reading I did too, until you posted that you had added the last paragraph I think alot of people probably thought that.
Está servira para distraerle.
So now let there be no more misapprehension. Important words need to be read carefully.
(That's the FT article I was referring to, of course.)
(That's the FT article I was referring to, of course.)
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: LHR
Age: 49
Posts: 94
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just something that has been bugging me recently:
I received a ballot form from UNITE about the latest offer this week, despite cancelling my subscription in January. But, I was 'kicked out' of the BASSA internet forum SIX WEEKS after cancelling my membership.
So someone, somewhere must know who is actually in the union and who is not.
Has this happpened to anyone else?
I received a ballot form from UNITE about the latest offer this week, despite cancelling my subscription in January. But, I was 'kicked out' of the BASSA internet forum SIX WEEKS after cancelling my membership.
So someone, somewhere must know who is actually in the union and who is not.
Has this happpened to anyone else?
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: london
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I posted the article in today's FT so that those of you you do not want to register could read it. max motor made mention of the article
Max
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Surrey
Posts: 471
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
cavortingcheetah said,
'I wouldn't be at all surprised to see BA cease to exist in its present form fairly soon and to be taken off shore entirely. WW's just got to sort out the pension fund and then, once the airline is in Madrid, he'll be able to staff it entirely using people from South and Central America, with the exception of Brasil of course, using the favoured nation status that Spain offers to its former overseas colonies which will allow him to circumvent EEC labour protection laws.'
'I wouldn't be at all surprised to see BA cease to exist in its present form fairly soon and to be taken off shore entirely. WW's just got to sort out the pension fund and then, once the airline is in Madrid, he'll be able to staff it entirely using people from South and Central America, with the exception of Brasil of course, using the favoured nation status that Spain offers to its former overseas colonies which will allow him to circumvent EEC labour protection laws.'
And here's some real BASSA rubbish that's doing the rounds.
Please read before you sign......
If you vote yes to accept the company's offer , you are voting for ..........
- Imposition of future changes to your agreements without negotiation
- The arbitrary and unfair dismissal of our Branch Secretary
- Disciplinary proceedings to be continued against other members of the Branch Committee
- Removal of staff travel as a "PUNISHMENT" for taking lawful industrial action
- The suspension and sacking of 70 of our cabin crew colleagues for trivial offences
- The destruction of our negotiating framework , our agreements and the demise of the NSP
- Removal of our right to proceed with all the outstanding legal claims arising from the dispute
- Removal of the redeployment agreement
- Accepting inferior disciplinary, grievance and attendance management procedures
- Removal of our ability to take part in any future , lawful industrial action without punitive financial sanctions
- Continued and sustained bullying and harassment by the company
- BA censoring all future communication by the union to its members
- No say to which routes are transferred to Mixed fleet
- Giving up all your union rights and the effective destruction of your trade union
Our CEO is on record in the press that he wants the "freedom" to make future cost savings without the threat of further industrial action is. without any negotiation with the union . Make no mistake , things will never be "normal" again !
THIS MAN IS NO ONE'S FRIEND ! , other groups of staff who have undermined our action will realise this when it is too late and strikebreakers must take responsibility for prolonging the dispute.
In short , acceptance of the "offer" will be selling our negotiating ability and mortgaging our future !
I work for British Airways in a management capacity and I urge you all to stick together and fight.
Please pass this on to your colleagues
Good luck to you all
Aaron
If you vote yes to accept the company's offer , you are voting for ..........
- Imposition of future changes to your agreements without negotiation
- The arbitrary and unfair dismissal of our Branch Secretary
- Disciplinary proceedings to be continued against other members of the Branch Committee
- Removal of staff travel as a "PUNISHMENT" for taking lawful industrial action
- The suspension and sacking of 70 of our cabin crew colleagues for trivial offences
- The destruction of our negotiating framework , our agreements and the demise of the NSP
- Removal of our right to proceed with all the outstanding legal claims arising from the dispute
- Removal of the redeployment agreement
- Accepting inferior disciplinary, grievance and attendance management procedures
- Removal of our ability to take part in any future , lawful industrial action without punitive financial sanctions
- Continued and sustained bullying and harassment by the company
- BA censoring all future communication by the union to its members
- No say to which routes are transferred to Mixed fleet
- Giving up all your union rights and the effective destruction of your trade union
Our CEO is on record in the press that he wants the "freedom" to make future cost savings without the threat of further industrial action is. without any negotiation with the union . Make no mistake , things will never be "normal" again !
THIS MAN IS NO ONE'S FRIEND ! , other groups of staff who have undermined our action will realise this when it is too late and strikebreakers must take responsibility for prolonging the dispute.
In short , acceptance of the "offer" will be selling our negotiating ability and mortgaging our future !
I work for British Airways in a management capacity and I urge you all to stick together and fight.
Please pass this on to your colleagues
Good luck to you all
Aaron
Last edited by Tiramisu; 14th Jul 2010 at 18:16.
Join Date: May 2010
Location: London
Posts: 83
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
slide Bustle
I don't think the proposal is bad - just a few more CONTRACTUALLY BINDING AGREEMENTS are needed for me...
A lot of the routes that you want protecting with "contractually binding agreements" are lucrative because of the exchange rate of sterling against the local currency, following your thinking the only way to guarantee these levels of earnings would be to be paid in GBP. What would you suggest if the exchange rates change again, as they surely will, in the future?
I'm sorry but nothing in life is certain, except death and taxes of course. I think the only hope we have now is to accept the deal before it gets any worse. I'm sure that if we do this and make it work full staff travel will come back eventually.
The only thing left after that will be to fight for the long overdue revolution at BASSA HQ.
A lot of the routes that you want protecting with "contractually binding agreements" are lucrative because of the exchange rate of sterling against the local currency, following your thinking the only way to guarantee these levels of earnings would be to be paid in GBP. What would you suggest if the exchange rates change again, as they surely will, in the future?
I'm sorry but nothing in life is certain, except death and taxes of course. I think the only hope we have now is to accept the deal before it gets any worse. I'm sure that if we do this and make it work full staff travel will come back eventually.
The only thing left after that will be to fight for the long overdue revolution at BASSA HQ.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: LGW
Posts: 107
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Picking just one item on the list of tosh from bassa:
"- The suspension and sacking of 70 of our cabin crew colleagues for trivial offences"
Does bassa think the empty oxygen bottles and other attempts of sabotage (can't go into details due confidentiality) are trivial matters? Not forgetting all the other issues, such as the alleged kidnap threats and treats of physical violence.
There's no doubt in my mind that there will be more suspensions and sackings due to some people's stupid behaviour.
"- The suspension and sacking of 70 of our cabin crew colleagues for trivial offences"
Does bassa think the empty oxygen bottles and other attempts of sabotage (can't go into details due confidentiality) are trivial matters? Not forgetting all the other issues, such as the alleged kidnap threats and treats of physical violence.
There's no doubt in my mind that there will be more suspensions and sackings due to some people's stupid behaviour.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: It used to be an island...
Posts: 244
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I hope noone will mind me intruding briefly to mention that the FT and quite a few other publications which require registration allow you to read the article freely if you come via Google (i.e. with an HTTP Referrer or suitable parameter from a Google link); so go to news.google.com, type in the article title and perhaps the publication name, and click on the resulting link. The previously-mentioned article can be read this way, as well as many others from usually registration-required sites which have been mentioned in the past on this thread.
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Planet Moo Moo
Posts: 1,279
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Don't you just love BASSA. I can honestly say I can sympathise with any manager who has to negotiate with BASSA as their particular spin on events defies logic.
You mean the arbitary and unfair manner in which the Branch Secretary did not turn up for rostered work? A mistake that was also pointed out, very quickly, by the industrial tribunal that threw his case out.
Some for fighting in the car park. Hardly the act of professionals. Also for the disemination of confidential information and for threatening other members of the company?
In the same way that Unite couldn't be bothered to poll a vote from the Cabin Crew over the changes to the pension they just implemented and imposed them.
These procedures haven't changed since Unite/BASSA agreed to them.
Has there ever actually been any proof of this? Don't say ST as that is a seperate issue. In all honesty the only bullying I have seen has been from the 'xxxxx' bunch, I will tolerate non of it in either direction.
BASSA were offered a say in the implementation of new fleet or indeed if it were to be needed 18 months ago. They refused to discuss it as their primary aim was 'reduction of the need of redundancies'.
By this I assume that BASSA mean the inability to throw out the threat of IA without actually backing it up with a legal reason for the damage to the company? How odd that they might end up with the court costs when their 'ideas' turn out to be flights of fancy.
Is there only ONE Union in BA now? Did I really miss the fact that all other Unions managed to achieve accord with the company through negotiation? Of course I didn't, but then BASSA is BA.
BASSA are right and the rest of us are all wrong, the rest of the Unions who have adapted slowly over the years to the vast changes within the airline industry and therefore didn't require the sweeping overhead cuts that IFcE has consistently refused to acknowledge. BASSA play on the fears of the future and demand guarantees in a world where there are no guarantees. But, if anyone who can see the wood for the trees tries to protect their jobs then they are wrong and they will learn the pain when Auntie BASSA is gone! Lucky Heather anyone?
Ability? ability? do they even know what that word means?
The arbitrary and unfair dismissal of our Branch Secretary
Disciplinary proceedings to be continued against other members of the Branch Committee
Imposition of future changes to your agreements without negotiation
Accepting inferior disciplinary, grievance and attendance management procedures
Continued and sustained bullying and harassment by the company
No say to which routes are transferred to Mixed fleet
Removal of our ability to take part in any future , lawful industrial action without punitive financial sanctions
Our CEO is on record in the press that he wants the "freedom" to make future cost savings without the threat of further industrial action is. without any negotiation with the union . Make no mistake , things will never be "normal" again !
THIS MAN IS NO ONE'S FRIEND ! , other groups of staff who have undermined our action will realise this when it is too late and strikebreakers must take responsibility for prolonging the dispute.
In short , acceptance of the "offer" will be selling our negotiating ability and mortgaging our future