British Airways vs. BASSA (current Airline Staff Only)
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Eddy
This has been a main topic of conversation on standby today. The Eurofleet pursers that have been asked to apply for CM have realised that they are currently earning around 35K give or take and IFCE project that the new CM's will be earning about 32K. So its a 'no brainer' at present; even more so for longhaul pursers. Take a three grand pay drop to work harder or sit tight and watch what happens. As you rightly say, any main crew who have more than 6 years in BA are not eligible to apply. Add in the less than desirable launch destinations and the undoubted challenges of managing whole aircrafts full of new crew and I think New Fleet will be staffed from outside IFCE.
(Speaking personally, it's hard enough for one person to manage a 767 crewed by experienced crew without thinking about a 777 with no experience
, how can you possibly know what is going on at the back?)
I can't see any old contract crew trading their current T&C's for Future Talent! There's definately no WIIFM.
This has been a main topic of conversation on standby today. The Eurofleet pursers that have been asked to apply for CM have realised that they are currently earning around 35K give or take and IFCE project that the new CM's will be earning about 32K. So its a 'no brainer' at present; even more so for longhaul pursers. Take a three grand pay drop to work harder or sit tight and watch what happens. As you rightly say, any main crew who have more than 6 years in BA are not eligible to apply. Add in the less than desirable launch destinations and the undoubted challenges of managing whole aircrafts full of new crew and I think New Fleet will be staffed from outside IFCE.
(Speaking personally, it's hard enough for one person to manage a 767 crewed by experienced crew without thinking about a 777 with no experience
, how can you possibly know what is going on at the back?) I can't see any old contract crew trading their current T&C's for Future Talent! There's definately no WIIFM.
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I don't think that people should regard the six years specified as being set in concrete. There is often a certain amount of leeway when suitable candidates are concerned. I'd recommend that everyone should apply if they want to be a CSM and has roughly the skills and experience required. Who dares wins.
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MESSAGE FOR ALL LGW STRIKERS
If you are a Gatwick crew member from either the BASSA or Amicus sections of Unite, and you took part in the recent industrial action, losing your staff travel, but, you have NOT YET claimed strike pay or have only claimed within the last 7 days, please email: ** ASAP.
This is to ensure you are included on the list of members to be balloted over the coming weeks
If you are a Gatwick crew member from either the BASSA or Amicus sections of Unite, and you took part in the recent industrial action, losing your staff travel, but, you have NOT YET claimed strike pay or have only claimed within the last 7 days, please email: ** ASAP.
This is to ensure you are included on the list of members to be balloted over the coming weeks
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The CSM job may be attractive to LGW pursers. I am not sure what they earn but the job gives them scope to do training and selection as well as fly, but in reality not many LHR Pursers would want to transfer.
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The MF cabin crew will have a starter salary of £11,000pa plus allowances plus a possible performance award. Annual earnings could average £18,000. So, who will apply? I think it's likely to be some existing cabin crew
Of course you could always get a syndicate of 5 crew together and share a one-bedroom flat!
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It's interesting that bmi don't pay a 'living wage' in London either but their customer service is consistently equal or better to ours. And they were flying A319s with 3 crew long before we were.
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Re: Message from Unite to LGW crew
Sounds like a very desperate attempt to make sure they don't make the same c*ck up that occurred with the first ballot. I still think that the situation is a potential minefield.
I don't understand how Unite can ballot LHR plus the LGW strikers only. The grievances only impact those who walked out on strike, so what is the logic in ballotting all of LHR ???? The folk who worked normally have nothing to gain from any negotiations on the grievances listed. To me the logical situation would be either to ballot al CC on the basis that the use of VCC, removal of ST and disciplinaries were 'an affront to the whole community'
or to only ballot those who were directly impacted - i.e the people who went on strike or had been subjected to disciplinaries. The latter ballot would be more likely to get the degree of support needed to call for strike action, albeit it would be limited to those balloted. If Unite are right in saying that a large number of crew walked out - the figures touted suggest about a third of all crew may have taken strike action - then getting them to down tools would indicate a greater degree of solidarity.
Assuming that LHR is about 7000 crew, if there are 3000 strikers who have no reason not to vote for further action, you need an 85% or lower turnout to guarantee a majority for action, but you run the risk that the strike call will be ineffectual as over half your membership may not have supported the ballot. On top of that, some of those who opted for strike action may find the economics a bit hard to handle and turn up for work - if only 30% of crew walked out on a ballot which suggested that 60%+ supported strike action you can bet that some of the 3000 who have zero to lose in supporting the ballot may think twice about losing still more pay.
To me this ballot is sheer stupidity. Now if Unite were to ballot on the introduction of mixed fleet, they might gain more support, but they've let themselves be suckered yet again. They've focussed on some truly silly niggles and announced them as the basis for ballotting and allowed BA to then slide in MF. The sensible thing would have been to acknowledge that they had lost the current battle and gone back to talk about MF. If BA then imposed MF they could try ballotting, although since BA have stipulated that current staff can retain their Ts&Cs and don't have to move across, it might be a dodgy wicket, but one that could get more support from other groups. Unite bought the dummy and BA have scored a neat goal. Doesn't say a lot for Unite's business acumen or negotiating skills - glad they don't represent me.
I don't understand how Unite can ballot LHR plus the LGW strikers only. The grievances only impact those who walked out on strike, so what is the logic in ballotting all of LHR ???? The folk who worked normally have nothing to gain from any negotiations on the grievances listed. To me the logical situation would be either to ballot al CC on the basis that the use of VCC, removal of ST and disciplinaries were 'an affront to the whole community'
or to only ballot those who were directly impacted - i.e the people who went on strike or had been subjected to disciplinaries. The latter ballot would be more likely to get the degree of support needed to call for strike action, albeit it would be limited to those balloted. If Unite are right in saying that a large number of crew walked out - the figures touted suggest about a third of all crew may have taken strike action - then getting them to down tools would indicate a greater degree of solidarity. Assuming that LHR is about 7000 crew, if there are 3000 strikers who have no reason not to vote for further action, you need an 85% or lower turnout to guarantee a majority for action, but you run the risk that the strike call will be ineffectual as over half your membership may not have supported the ballot. On top of that, some of those who opted for strike action may find the economics a bit hard to handle and turn up for work - if only 30% of crew walked out on a ballot which suggested that 60%+ supported strike action you can bet that some of the 3000 who have zero to lose in supporting the ballot may think twice about losing still more pay.
To me this ballot is sheer stupidity. Now if Unite were to ballot on the introduction of mixed fleet, they might gain more support, but they've let themselves be suckered yet again. They've focussed on some truly silly niggles and announced them as the basis for ballotting and allowed BA to then slide in MF. The sensible thing would have been to acknowledge that they had lost the current battle and gone back to talk about MF. If BA then imposed MF they could try ballotting, although since BA have stipulated that current staff can retain their Ts&Cs and don't have to move across, it might be a dodgy wicket, but one that could get more support from other groups. Unite bought the dummy and BA have scored a neat goal. Doesn't say a lot for Unite's business acumen or negotiating skills - glad they don't represent me.
Last edited by Colonel White; 24th Jun 2010 at 22:01. Reason: Missed out title - doh !!!!
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It's interesting that bmi don't pay a 'living wage' in London either but their customer service is consistently equal or better to ours. And they were flying A319s with 3 crew long before we were
The reason for not balloting LGW crew may be within the grievance. Isn't the wording around replacing striking crew with volunteers and presumably there was no need to do that at LGW.
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The grievances only impact those who walked out on strike, so what is the logic in ballotting all of LHR ???? The folk who worked normally have nothing to gain from any negotiations on the grievances listed.
Sadly, many crew chose to defy union calls to strike but still wanted to enjoy the benefits and protection that union membership would offer
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All the worries surrounding this new fleet sound just like dual fleet then mid-fleet fears.
Good fast-track to promotion and I would lay money on the more desirable routes being transferred over in the next year (and motivated crew sounds better than the die-hard militants).
Good fast-track to promotion and I would lay money on the more desirable routes being transferred over in the next year (and motivated crew sounds better than the die-hard militants).
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Starter salary for MF
Does sound low, but put it in context. The going rate for new joiners in IT is not dissimilar and they have to be grads with a 2.1 The problem is if you compare it to existing BA salaries it will seem poor, but look a bit wider at what the going rate for new joiners in similar customer facing roles is or what some of the other grad jobs pay and all of a sudden £18K is a pretty good whack.
I can see that there is zero attraction for a lot of existing crew at the moment as it doesn't make financial sense. The trouble is that BA have said from the outset that the crew cost base is unsustainable in the long term so will not really be interested intransferring staff across at their current rates. They will get there by attrition.
As far as the cost of living in London goes, there are shedloads of jobs that pay less than BA are proposing to pay cabin crew. Doesn't seem to stop folk from getting by though. As far as buying property goes, forget it. The price of a studio flat is now over £90K and a two bed place is over £100K. Lenders have tightened up and are likely to want a minimum of £25k a year income to advance the requisite dosh, and you'll need at least a 10% deposit.
I can see that there is zero attraction for a lot of existing crew at the moment as it doesn't make financial sense. The trouble is that BA have said from the outset that the crew cost base is unsustainable in the long term so will not really be interested intransferring staff across at their current rates. They will get there by attrition.
As far as the cost of living in London goes, there are shedloads of jobs that pay less than BA are proposing to pay cabin crew. Doesn't seem to stop folk from getting by though. As far as buying property goes, forget it. The price of a studio flat is now over £90K and a two bed place is over £100K. Lenders have tightened up and are likely to want a minimum of £25k a year income to advance the requisite dosh, and you'll need at least a 10% deposit.
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Yes, actually - a friend of mine has a place in BGI so I go out fairly regularly.
And yes, I agree - outstanding crew. And consistent in their, ummm, outstandingness.
But I think Mixed Fleet is going to be a fair bit different - not least because of the routes. Would you rather have a couple of days on a beach in Barbados or a couple of days in a luminous green room in the ***** Hilton?!
(Edited to replace city name with ***** : most will know where I mean, though)
And yes, I agree - outstanding crew. And consistent in their, ummm, outstandingness.
But I think Mixed Fleet is going to be a fair bit different - not least because of the routes. Would you rather have a couple of days on a beach in Barbados or a couple of days in a luminous green room in the ***** Hilton?!
(Edited to replace city name with ***** : most will know where I mean, though)
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I've been Reading these threads from the start and I feel it's time to coment.
I'll try to put it all in bullet points, because I'd be here all night otherwise.
The union has messed up - majorly. No questions asked to the members about what they want (union is for the members, not other way round).
New fleet didn't have to happen so soon but we know why it's happening now.
New fleet contract isn't desirable for current crew unless you have a big wish to be CSM. (on VERY good authority: sickness days for new fleet before getting in trouble- 4 days. First lateness - stage 1, next lateness - out the door).
Nobody is being forced to new fleet.
There are no guarantees in life, least of all your contract in a fickle world that is the airline industry.
Motivation: it's your life, and it's up to you to motivate yourself. Personal pride should be a given, I think. You cannot depend on your peers motivating you. It's a matter of doing the best job you possibly can, because you want to be the best.
WW has kept every promise so far, so why doubt what he says? Having spoken to him a few times, I understand what he's trying to achieve.
Bullying has no place in BA (or anywhere else for that matter). Report bullying behavoiur, but understand that if someone disagrees with you, that doesn't mean they're a bully. Bullying in my book is constant belittling (sp?), exclusion, physical, violence and inappropriate/unprofessional behaviour.
We at LGW should have our own negotiating team/union/bargaining force. Only if you're based at LGW can you truly understand our issues.
Most important of all: Do your job at the very best of your ability. Gain as much knowledge as possible, be informed. Have a back-up plan. The customer might not always be right (we've seen those threads), but every single customer deserves respect, politeness and great service.
Let's prove to the doubters that we are fantastic. Let's get back on track and be outstanding. Most of all: let's be professional.
(sorry for long post, but I had to do it. I'm LGW crew and passionate about my job)
I'll try to put it all in bullet points, because I'd be here all night otherwise.
The union has messed up - majorly. No questions asked to the members about what they want (union is for the members, not other way round).
New fleet didn't have to happen so soon but we know why it's happening now.
New fleet contract isn't desirable for current crew unless you have a big wish to be CSM. (on VERY good authority: sickness days for new fleet before getting in trouble- 4 days. First lateness - stage 1, next lateness - out the door).
Nobody is being forced to new fleet.
There are no guarantees in life, least of all your contract in a fickle world that is the airline industry.
Motivation: it's your life, and it's up to you to motivate yourself. Personal pride should be a given, I think. You cannot depend on your peers motivating you. It's a matter of doing the best job you possibly can, because you want to be the best.
WW has kept every promise so far, so why doubt what he says? Having spoken to him a few times, I understand what he's trying to achieve.
Bullying has no place in BA (or anywhere else for that matter). Report bullying behavoiur, but understand that if someone disagrees with you, that doesn't mean they're a bully. Bullying in my book is constant belittling (sp?), exclusion, physical, violence and inappropriate/unprofessional behaviour.
We at LGW should have our own negotiating team/union/bargaining force. Only if you're based at LGW can you truly understand our issues.
Most important of all: Do your job at the very best of your ability. Gain as much knowledge as possible, be informed. Have a back-up plan. The customer might not always be right (we've seen those threads), but every single customer deserves respect, politeness and great service.
Let's prove to the doubters that we are fantastic. Let's get back on track and be outstanding. Most of all: let's be professional.
(sorry for long post, but I had to do it. I'm LGW crew and passionate about my job)
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Gatwick Crew
I am LGW crew and yes as a whole we pride ourselves in being a friendly bunch. This is largely due to the fact that it is a small base and we are lucky enough to fly with friends. This is the biggest reason why most of Gatwick flights are good, because people enjoy flying with their friends. As for consistency in adhereing to service standards, I feel there is alot of room for improvement. All of our trips are extremely sociable as we go WEST and fly into the sun, it's the champagne lifestyle on beer money. Our base is bursting with youth which promotes motivation and enthusiasm!! You have to remember alot of our older staff are on older contracts and therefore earn alot more than newer crew, there are 24 different crew contracts at Gatwick!!! If you are on an older contract happy days, if your are on the new 11k one its not so good. The most attractive thing about working as BA cabin crew at Gatwick isn't the money! It's the lifestyle and our friendly base. If they were to spilt Mixed Fleet crew into small groups similar to Easyjet's practice, they will retain more staff. If they end up employing over 2,000 staff, it will become very lonely and like Virgin, BA will suffer from a high labour turnover. Cabin Crew as BA is no longer a career, many crew accept this and either make it work for them or do it for 2-3 years and leave.
Like it or not this is the future, despite service quality being compromised, as we all know this world is all about money, be comfortable, look after yourself, family and friends and stay happy!
Like it or not this is the future, despite service quality being compromised, as we all know this world is all about money, be comfortable, look after yourself, family and friends and stay happy!
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Am breaking my 'Golden Rule' here!
CB and Eddy seemed to have a very good exchange. Colonel White appeared to put salaries in context.
Truth is, BA have some of the very finest crew (CSDs, pursers, and main crew) in the business! They deserve every penny. Sadly from personal experience, BA also seem to have a fair proportion of 'freeloaders'! People who think BA owes them a living!
It does not! These folks are totally out of touch with reality. They are currently in the process of receiving a reality check. To an extent, I do sympathise.
I suspect the advertised requirements for CSMs, is an initial attempt to break away from the 'dead wood'! The 'Dead Man's Handle' that is BASSA.
I genuinely hope that the best of our 'legacy' crew, those that are in the job because they love it, (be they CSD, purser or main crew) are looked after by BA.
The rest can do what people always do, and simply vote with their feet. BA will continue with, or without you. Stop belly-aching. accept your world has changed, or find a new one! If the job is so awful you just can't face it, then you know what to do. (But I bet you don't!!) The best of our CC would be successful in whatever they turned their hand to. (Probably could earn more!) The 'Freeloaders' know BA is the goose that lays the golden egg!!
I wish all those who have stood up against B&H (we're talking BASSA here!) the very best. There are some in this company who would stand shoulder to shoulder with you should it become necessary.
Just not shoulder to shoulder with the 'Loonies', that's all!
CB and Eddy seemed to have a very good exchange. Colonel White appeared to put salaries in context.
Truth is, BA have some of the very finest crew (CSDs, pursers, and main crew) in the business! They deserve every penny. Sadly from personal experience, BA also seem to have a fair proportion of 'freeloaders'! People who think BA owes them a living!
It does not! These folks are totally out of touch with reality. They are currently in the process of receiving a reality check. To an extent, I do sympathise.
I suspect the advertised requirements for CSMs, is an initial attempt to break away from the 'dead wood'! The 'Dead Man's Handle' that is BASSA.
I genuinely hope that the best of our 'legacy' crew, those that are in the job because they love it, (be they CSD, purser or main crew) are looked after by BA.
The rest can do what people always do, and simply vote with their feet. BA will continue with, or without you. Stop belly-aching. accept your world has changed, or find a new one! If the job is so awful you just can't face it, then you know what to do. (But I bet you don't!!) The best of our CC would be successful in whatever they turned their hand to. (Probably could earn more!) The 'Freeloaders' know BA is the goose that lays the golden egg!!
I wish all those who have stood up against B&H (we're talking BASSA here!) the very best. There are some in this company who would stand shoulder to shoulder with you should it become necessary.
Just not shoulder to shoulder with the 'Loonies', that's all!