British Airways vs. BASSA (current Airline Staff Only)
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Latest ballot...
It strikes me that Unite have either indulged in a really crafty move or have just shot themselves very neatly in the foot. Let me explain. By balloting only LHR staff they may be able to argue that the basis for complaint is new even though two out of the three items they are ballotting on arise from the previous dispute.
The snag is that by abandoning crew in LGW they are unable to seek to have any staff travel restored to any LGW folk who did walk out. Now this hardly smacks of solidarity. Suspect that the union reps down in LGW are going to be a bit miffed (I'm assuming that they walked out in principle and consequently lost their staff travel.
The union also leave themselves wide open to any strike being very effectively broken. If LGW crews are excluded from any strike action, there is nothing to prevent BA management seconding them wholesale to LHR and backfilling with temps. Obviously the way it would be managed would be to ramp up the temp numbers to way beyond what the LGW operation actually needs in the first place. The cost ? well, temps would be on a one month notice deal. Unite are calling for 12 weeks of action. Worst case is it costs 3 months for extra temps. BA will be able to get a good indication of how many are going to be needed from the stats on who broke the last strike and the ballot result. Airline runs a 100% operation. Unite get sidelined. Next ballot probably has to line up with Xmas and how many will back that ??
All this assumes that Unite succeed in getting a majority. But they've just made life even more difficult as they need to be absolutely certain that they only ballot LHR staff. Given the fiasco last year when they ballotted folk who had left the airline, I reckon that BA management and their legal eagles will be watching the numbers very closely. The slightest whiff that Unite have included LGW staff or excluded some LHR staff will probably result in the company waiting for staff to walk out and then mounting a legal challenge. If the ballot is proved to be illegal, those who walked will be sacked.
It will be interesting to see what eventually transpires. My bet is that we are seeing the final death throes of a desperate bunch of individuals.
The snag is that by abandoning crew in LGW they are unable to seek to have any staff travel restored to any LGW folk who did walk out. Now this hardly smacks of solidarity. Suspect that the union reps down in LGW are going to be a bit miffed (I'm assuming that they walked out in principle and consequently lost their staff travel.
The union also leave themselves wide open to any strike being very effectively broken. If LGW crews are excluded from any strike action, there is nothing to prevent BA management seconding them wholesale to LHR and backfilling with temps. Obviously the way it would be managed would be to ramp up the temp numbers to way beyond what the LGW operation actually needs in the first place. The cost ? well, temps would be on a one month notice deal. Unite are calling for 12 weeks of action. Worst case is it costs 3 months for extra temps. BA will be able to get a good indication of how many are going to be needed from the stats on who broke the last strike and the ballot result. Airline runs a 100% operation. Unite get sidelined. Next ballot probably has to line up with Xmas and how many will back that ??
All this assumes that Unite succeed in getting a majority. But they've just made life even more difficult as they need to be absolutely certain that they only ballot LHR staff. Given the fiasco last year when they ballotted folk who had left the airline, I reckon that BA management and their legal eagles will be watching the numbers very closely. The slightest whiff that Unite have included LGW staff or excluded some LHR staff will probably result in the company waiting for staff to walk out and then mounting a legal challenge. If the ballot is proved to be illegal, those who walked will be sacked.
It will be interesting to see what eventually transpires. My bet is that we are seeing the final death throes of a desperate bunch of individuals.
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HiFlyer,
I may have been a little over sensitive for which I also apologise.
We appear to have reached a stalemate. Maybe we should leave it there.
Jsl
P.S. You never answered my question. How many LGW cabin crew are currently involved in the running of PCCC?
I sincerely apologise if you think I was treating you as a child. That was never my intention
Originally Posted by jetset lady
I can not put my faith or money into an organisation that insists on remaining anonymous during such a critical time.
Jsl
P.S. You never answered my question. How many LGW cabin crew are currently involved in the running of PCCC?
Last edited by jetset lady; 23rd Jun 2010 at 02:50.
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Hiflyer,
I´ve heard from some CC, and not only BASSA supporters, that they are reluctant to join the PCCC, precisely because it´s not a union. I would find it really surprising if even the board of directors would recognise the PCCC as an official bargaining force.
Some people have told me that they are reluctant as they see the PCCC perfectly capable of signing a no-strike agreement with BA, effectively decimating the negotiating strenght of the workforce, but I think this is total nonsense. There would be no need for a no-strike agreement, becuse the real issue is that, not being a union, PCCC members would not be protected if they needed to take industrial action, and for this, the negotiating power of PCCC would only depend on the goodwill of the directors and investors. Only a union is capable of defending employees´ conditions, by law.
Of course this could all be total nonsense, and I am anly talking about what a few people have told me. But bear in mind that WW hasn´t got a problem in continuing to recognise Unite as the bargaining group for CC, only wants to change the nature of this bargaining. Big companies need official unions, not staff associations, representing staff, and I am not only talking of the employees, but the whole organisation.
I´ve heard from some CC, and not only BASSA supporters, that they are reluctant to join the PCCC, precisely because it´s not a union. I would find it really surprising if even the board of directors would recognise the PCCC as an official bargaining force.
Some people have told me that they are reluctant as they see the PCCC perfectly capable of signing a no-strike agreement with BA, effectively decimating the negotiating strenght of the workforce, but I think this is total nonsense. There would be no need for a no-strike agreement, becuse the real issue is that, not being a union, PCCC members would not be protected if they needed to take industrial action, and for this, the negotiating power of PCCC would only depend on the goodwill of the directors and investors. Only a union is capable of defending employees´ conditions, by law.
Of course this could all be total nonsense, and I am anly talking about what a few people have told me. But bear in mind that WW hasn´t got a problem in continuing to recognise Unite as the bargaining group for CC, only wants to change the nature of this bargaining. Big companies need official unions, not staff associations, representing staff, and I am not only talking of the employees, but the whole organisation.
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Can I ask you to state exactly what it is that you feel the PCCC could or should be doing? Or indeed what it is that we are not doing?
Which describes how A worker in a bargaining unit can call for the derecognition of a Union. In particular
The CAC will only accept your ballot application if:
- it is made in the proper form
- you have copied the application and any supporting documents to the union
- at least 10 per cent of the workers in the bargaining unit favour derecognition
- a majority of the workers in the bargaining unit are likely to favour derecognition
- there hasn't been a previous application for an end to the bargaining arrangements in the last three years
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VLD1977
Thanks very much for the feedback. You make some valid points, and ones that we are very much aware of.
Unfortunately what people don't seem to realise is that we are in a catch 22 situation. We cannot be a union, until we get a large majority of the workforce on side.
Cabin crew have had enormous amounts of information thrown at them over the past 18 months - some more factual than others - and the last thing we want to do is to add to the confusion. Some people are therefore simply putting their heads down and coming into work, trying not to get involved in the politics of it all. And that is completely understandable.
But it is very simple and cabin crew must appreciate this:
If we don't all get together and form a new organisation, be that a union, a council, or an association, or anything else we decide to call it, then the only voice we have is BASSA/Unite. They have proved beyond reasonable doubt that they are not acting in our interests. BASSA/Unite are however the current recognised union and the only way to override that is, as pointed out by Malcolmf, to get a majority of the cabin crew community together to ask BA for something else.
There is no other way out of this desperate situation. To say that we will sign a no-strike clause is simply BASSA scaremongering. Nothing we have said or done would indicate that. We are taking advice from an Industrial Relations Expert. We have people with legal degrees on our team. One of our steering group members has previously and independantly taken BA to an industrial tribunal and won. Two members are ex-union reps. We are certainly not people to sit back and be walked over. We are more than capable of assisting people in attendance meetings etc. as any colleague can attend, it does not have to be a union rep.
We all need to stop worrying about the future and start focusing on what is happening now - this dispute. If we don't, we may not have a future to focus on. What the PCCC will look like in the future will be whatever the members and BA agree that it should be. What it is right now is effectively a driving force of cabin crew who do not agree with the unreasonable, unjustified action that Unite is taking. The PCCC is trying to save our jobs, save our community and save our company from the destruction that Unite is inflicting on all of us. We are dealing with what is happening right here, right now. When we have done that, we will be in a position to decide what shape and size we will take for the future. But if people don't recognise that they need to register with us to achieve this, then Unite will win.
If you came to work during the strike, you need to register with the PCCC. You can retain your BASSA membership if you want to, but if you do not register with the PCCC, then you are allowing Unite to continue on their path of destruction. Crossing the picket line is a good move. You now need to take the next step and register with the PCCC. If you don't, the PCCC can achieve nothing.
Thanks very much for the feedback. You make some valid points, and ones that we are very much aware of.
Unfortunately what people don't seem to realise is that we are in a catch 22 situation. We cannot be a union, until we get a large majority of the workforce on side.
Cabin crew have had enormous amounts of information thrown at them over the past 18 months - some more factual than others - and the last thing we want to do is to add to the confusion. Some people are therefore simply putting their heads down and coming into work, trying not to get involved in the politics of it all. And that is completely understandable.
But it is very simple and cabin crew must appreciate this:
If we don't all get together and form a new organisation, be that a union, a council, or an association, or anything else we decide to call it, then the only voice we have is BASSA/Unite. They have proved beyond reasonable doubt that they are not acting in our interests. BASSA/Unite are however the current recognised union and the only way to override that is, as pointed out by Malcolmf, to get a majority of the cabin crew community together to ask BA for something else.
There is no other way out of this desperate situation. To say that we will sign a no-strike clause is simply BASSA scaremongering. Nothing we have said or done would indicate that. We are taking advice from an Industrial Relations Expert. We have people with legal degrees on our team. One of our steering group members has previously and independantly taken BA to an industrial tribunal and won. Two members are ex-union reps. We are certainly not people to sit back and be walked over. We are more than capable of assisting people in attendance meetings etc. as any colleague can attend, it does not have to be a union rep.
We all need to stop worrying about the future and start focusing on what is happening now - this dispute. If we don't, we may not have a future to focus on. What the PCCC will look like in the future will be whatever the members and BA agree that it should be. What it is right now is effectively a driving force of cabin crew who do not agree with the unreasonable, unjustified action that Unite is taking. The PCCC is trying to save our jobs, save our community and save our company from the destruction that Unite is inflicting on all of us. We are dealing with what is happening right here, right now. When we have done that, we will be in a position to decide what shape and size we will take for the future. But if people don't recognise that they need to register with us to achieve this, then Unite will win.
If you came to work during the strike, you need to register with the PCCC. You can retain your BASSA membership if you want to, but if you do not register with the PCCC, then you are allowing Unite to continue on their path of destruction. Crossing the picket line is a good move. You now need to take the next step and register with the PCCC. If you don't, the PCCC can achieve nothing.
Last edited by HiFlyer14; 23rd Jun 2010 at 10:00.
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With the announcement yesterday of massive public sector pay and pension reductions,
whats the betting on the unite leadership making this their main focus of attention
in the coming months (its going to be fun watching Woodley attacking the over paid
while on his terms and conditions )
whats the betting on the unite leadership making this their main focus of attention
in the coming months (its going to be fun watching Woodley attacking the over paid
while on his terms and conditions )
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And here we are - mixed fleet LHR is launched! Job adverts out on ESS....
Thanks BASSA and well done!
It could have been so different had you bothered to negotiate.
The world doesn't revolve around you anymore. Life and BA goes on....
Last edited by Tiramisu; 23rd Jun 2010 at 14:20.
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Maybe, just maybe they'll read their ESS messages now and not press the delete button. But you never know, a few months down the line some crew may still be saying Mixed Fleet what....when......?
Who knows this might prompt a mass resignation from BASSA and they may see sense to join the PCCC. Hopefully the PCCC may just get the numbers to be recognised.
One thing crew have to remember is, if you do move to Mixed Fleet, you cannot be a member of BASSA/AMICUS. So BASSA, please take note, you are going to lose members as I know numerous cabin crew who have been waiting for this opportunity. Mixed Fleet will have it's own bargaining agreements.
Who knows this might prompt a mass resignation from BASSA and they may see sense to join the PCCC. Hopefully the PCCC may just get the numbers to be recognised.
One thing crew have to remember is, if you do move to Mixed Fleet, you cannot be a member of BASSA/AMICUS. So BASSA, please take note, you are going to lose members as I know numerous cabin crew who have been waiting for this opportunity. Mixed Fleet will have it's own bargaining agreements.
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Info here: British Airways Careers
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I wonder how long it will be before all the big £££ trips are only operated by Mixed Fleet ?
I guess they will now just allocate NRT etc onto Mixed fleet and put less and less flying through the old fleets ? What does everyone think ?
I guess they will now just allocate NRT etc onto Mixed fleet and put less and less flying through the old fleets ? What does everyone think ?
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I don't believe with the implementation of MTP that ALL the lucrative routes will go to mixed fleet. It would not make financial sense as MTP is already paying an average payment including those routes to crew on the current LH/SH fleets.
Although, when I read that ESS I didn't know whether to laugh or cry. Cry because a small element of fear within me hopes that this will not see the sudden demise of my career as I have no intention (purely financially motivated) of moving to the mixed fleet.
However, laugh as already on the 'other' forums the knives are out regarding this news and it's hysterical. The BASSA supporters still can't see that their beloved union has meant the introduction of a new fleet WITHOUT any negotiation! Quite incredible.
Although, when I read that ESS I didn't know whether to laugh or cry. Cry because a small element of fear within me hopes that this will not see the sudden demise of my career as I have no intention (purely financially motivated) of moving to the mixed fleet.
However, laugh as already on the 'other' forums the knives are out regarding this news and it's hysterical. The BASSA supporters still can't see that their beloved union has meant the introduction of a new fleet WITHOUT any negotiation! Quite incredible.
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I guess they will now just allocate NRT etc onto Mixed fleet and put less and less flying through the old fleets ? What does everyone think ?
Bill Francis promised us a fair transfer of work and this has been mentioned in all his correspondence and web chats with us. I will take him at his word. I don't think all the lucrative routes will go to Mixed Fleet. Work will be transferred on a rotation basis with the High, Mid and Low earning trips.
The other thing to remember and I know I have mentioned this a few times previously, is that it will take Mixed Fleet 10 years to get to 40%.
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Hi flyer
Hi flyer a question if you please?
Thank you for your efforts with the pccc which is something I'm watching with interest. It seems that pprune members are aware of it's existence but not the cc community in general. I was told by someone that during the last wave you intended to blitz crc with flyers to start gaining the publicity you need but for some reason this didn't happen. My question being that surely it's time to really get out there sooner or later and advertise heavily rather than relying on word of mouth. It seems an opportunity was missed during the last wave of strikes. If cc who are so disgruntled with bassa knew more about the pccc then you'd really start getting the interest.
Thank you for your efforts with the pccc which is something I'm watching with interest. It seems that pprune members are aware of it's existence but not the cc community in general. I was told by someone that during the last wave you intended to blitz crc with flyers to start gaining the publicity you need but for some reason this didn't happen. My question being that surely it's time to really get out there sooner or later and advertise heavily rather than relying on word of mouth. It seems an opportunity was missed during the last wave of strikes. If cc who are so disgruntled with bassa knew more about the pccc then you'd really start getting the interest.
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Hi tiramisu - do you think the £150m cost caused by the strikes might change that now and cause BA to speed up the implementation ?
Good question, and it might do. However, the growth of New Fleet was part of the Investor day presentations and I really don't think that will change. But then, it's only my opinion and naturally for personal reasons, I hope it is the case.
I also think that majority of us were under the impression that Mixed Fleet would have started around July/August. So this announcement comes as no real surprise.
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License To Fly
Please remember that this news has come out of the blue, and every cabin crew member is affected by it. We are also now in the very precarious position that Mixed Fleet has now been implemented WITHOUT any safeguards in place for us (MTP, route transfer agreement, etc) thanks to BASSA's inability to secure what was quite literally offered on a plate.
Thankfully BF has stated in his email today:
So, shall we leave the unsubstantiated scaremongering to BASSA? They do enough without anyone else joining in.
I am BA cabin crew and this is my own viewpoint and not that of BA.
Please remember that this news has come out of the blue, and every cabin crew member is affected by it. We are also now in the very precarious position that Mixed Fleet has now been implemented WITHOUT any safeguards in place for us (MTP, route transfer agreement, etc) thanks to BASSA's inability to secure what was quite literally offered on a plate.
Thankfully BF has stated in his email today:
No one will be forced to join Mixed Fleet
You can stay on your current terms and conditions
You can still be promoted on your current terms and conditions
Current permanent crew at Heathrow can transfer between Worldwide and Eurofleet on current terms and conditions
You won't lose all the best earning routes or aircraft types to Mixed Fleet
There will be assurances around your average variable pay
You can stay on your current terms and conditions
You can still be promoted on your current terms and conditions
Current permanent crew at Heathrow can transfer between Worldwide and Eurofleet on current terms and conditions
You won't lose all the best earning routes or aircraft types to Mixed Fleet
There will be assurances around your average variable pay
I am BA cabin crew and this is my own viewpoint and not that of BA.