British Airways vs. BASSA (Airline Staff Only)
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As cabin crew myself with another UK based airline, that has accepted reduced crew on flights AND taken a pay cut to see OUR company through these amazingly difficult times, I am amazed that BA cabin crew can't see that they have been overpaid (and over rated) for more many, many years and can't accept the simple fact that BA can no longer afford to bow to every whim of your union! Wake up and smell the coffee (or tea obviously!) of commercial necessity! 
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Vortex, Eddy (in my opinion) is fairly representative of a large number of Crew.
Hes clealry said hes anti-strike but obviously feels a liitle 'threatened',if thats the right word by whats going on around him - particularly wrt New Fleet i'd imagine. I think him, and others like him would have liked to see the union bat that away and agree something before we got to where we are now.
Just because crew are anti-strike does not necessarily mean they have to despise their union either (though many do). Unfortunately, him and many like him, have been let down by those they trusted at the wrong time. There's no need to pillory him for his opinions. Hes one of the good ones and always posts honestly and eloquently and doesn't get personel. Everyones entitled to their opinions and if we don't agree with them, well.... tough really.
Hes clealry said hes anti-strike but obviously feels a liitle 'threatened',if thats the right word by whats going on around him - particularly wrt New Fleet i'd imagine. I think him, and others like him would have liked to see the union bat that away and agree something before we got to where we are now.
Just because crew are anti-strike does not necessarily mean they have to despise their union either (though many do). Unfortunately, him and many like him, have been let down by those they trusted at the wrong time. There's no need to pillory him for his opinions. Hes one of the good ones and always posts honestly and eloquently and doesn't get personel. Everyones entitled to their opinions and if we don't agree with them, well.... tough really.
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Arty, nice post.
I am not threatened by anyone. Nobody has the power to make me feel like that. As much as they might like to think they do.
The messages and notes I've got in my suitcase that have been left in my dropfile are not, as those who sent them might have hoped, anything more than an annoyance.
Indeed, if anything, they make me less likely join their 'cause'. The more of these notes I get, the less I want ANYTHING to do with the kind of nasty people who would send them.
I back BA and I'm proud - this time - to back BA. How dare anyone question my intentions or motives..... I have enough to worry about every time I check my dropfile.
I am not threatened by anyone. Nobody has the power to make me feel like that. As much as they might like to think they do.
The messages and notes I've got in my suitcase that have been left in my dropfile are not, as those who sent them might have hoped, anything more than an annoyance.
Indeed, if anything, they make me less likely join their 'cause'. The more of these notes I get, the less I want ANYTHING to do with the kind of nasty people who would send them.
I back BA and I'm proud - this time - to back BA. How dare anyone question my intentions or motives..... I have enough to worry about every time I check my dropfile.
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Eddy,
I didn't mean that you felt threatened personally but rather your job security/prospects. Whatever, the sentiment remains the same and i don't understand the posters point. He obviously didn't read all your posts during the first strike which gave great balance to this whole debate at the time.
Anyway, hopefully we're motoring towards the finishing line now. If UNITE loses it appeal tomorrow its all but over really. I just hope theres little bloodshed, if any, but won't shed a tear if BASSA are discredited - in fact i still think thats WW ultimate goal so there may just be a bit of collateral damage to come. Heres hoping for a UNITEd BA come next week - sorry for the carp pun.
I didn't mean that you felt threatened personally but rather your job security/prospects. Whatever, the sentiment remains the same and i don't understand the posters point. He obviously didn't read all your posts during the first strike which gave great balance to this whole debate at the time.
Anyway, hopefully we're motoring towards the finishing line now. If UNITE loses it appeal tomorrow its all but over really. I just hope theres little bloodshed, if any, but won't shed a tear if BASSA are discredited - in fact i still think thats WW ultimate goal so there may just be a bit of collateral damage to come. Heres hoping for a UNITEd BA come next week - sorry for the carp pun.
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B&H
Eddy,
Why don't you give the notes you have been left for BA to handle/pass to the police?
I doubt any threatening BASSA militant is bright enough to mask their tracks whether the offending items are printed or handwritten.
Give them to the company and let them deal with it as they wish.
Why don't you give the notes you have been left for BA to handle/pass to the police?
I doubt any threatening BASSA militant is bright enough to mask their tracks whether the offending items are printed or handwritten.
Give them to the company and let them deal with it as they wish.
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Just a thought...
Unless the CoA repeal yesterdays ruling, then the last ballot was illegal, so BASSA will have to re-ballot (the process taking about 1 month) before they can take further strike action.
Now as I understand it, only BASSA can call off strike action, but to issue a ballot for that action they require the approval of Unite.
If I read the situation correctly, there is little love lost between BASSA and Unite, with the latter getting rather tired of BASSA'S antics. After all, TW said only a ffew days ago that the items of substance had been agreed with BA, just leaving the disciplinaries and ST (which WW had agreed to deliver in part).
So the question, do we think that Unite will agree to BASSA conducting another costly ballot? I vote no.
...As I said, just a thought.
Unless the CoA repeal yesterdays ruling, then the last ballot was illegal, so BASSA will have to re-ballot (the process taking about 1 month) before they can take further strike action.
Now as I understand it, only BASSA can call off strike action, but to issue a ballot for that action they require the approval of Unite.
If I read the situation correctly, there is little love lost between BASSA and Unite, with the latter getting rather tired of BASSA'S antics. After all, TW said only a ffew days ago that the items of substance had been agreed with BA, just leaving the disciplinaries and ST (which WW had agreed to deliver in part).
So the question, do we think that Unite will agree to BASSA conducting another costly ballot? I vote no.
...As I said, just a thought.
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One question. Mr Walsh breaks the back of BASSA as an effective union and saves £100m, what then? The loss has gone up £200m which cannot all be attributed to strike action in IfCE.
Will we be seeing a new fleet style contract in other departments?
Will we be seeing a new fleet style contract in other departments?
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Litebulbs
Will we be seeing a new fleet style contract in other departments?
Also, most other groups have already made plenty of concessions over the years, without using the BASSA technique of "I'm alright Jack". Possibly if BASSA hadn't carved off most of their membership onto inferior contracts and sold them down the river (LGW?), the old contract CSD's wouldn't have become so isolated.
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Will we be seeing a new fleet style contract in other departments?
where have you been in the last 18 months?
maybe the right question should be: when are we going to stop looking at the neighbour's grass and start looking at what is being offered to you? The attitude of pointing the finger at others has not taken us (or CC for all that matters) anywhere constructive, so isn't it time to change it?
(to be honest it is not even worth listing again all the changes other depts have gone through in recent years, as if you wanted to take notice there have been plenty of posts listing them)
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Eddy,
It's decent of you to stand up for Lizanne and I truly don't doubt that she does love crew and, in a retro kind of way, the airline too. The problem is that she appears, to the wider airline, to demonstrate that love by broadsiding every other staff group (flight crew in particular) whenever something isn't going BASSA's way. I think that's probably why you'll find there's a great deal of opprobrium towards her.
MrB
It's decent of you to stand up for Lizanne and I truly don't doubt that she does love crew and, in a retro kind of way, the airline too. The problem is that she appears, to the wider airline, to demonstrate that love by broadsiding every other staff group (flight crew in particular) whenever something isn't going BASSA's way. I think that's probably why you'll find there's a great deal of opprobrium towards her.
MrB
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I think you will find that the answer is......if the company shows the unions the books and proves that they are in need of making further savings, the respective unions (although maybe not all of them!) will be willing to negotiate the savings that are asked of that specific group.
Sound familiar?
Sound familiar?
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Litebulbs, if it goes badly today/tomorrow in court for UNITE/BASSA, then both cabin crew and UNITE/BASSA will pay for the shortfall.
Potentially 2500 cabin crew sacked, think of the savings
Of course the direction of this dispute could change this afternoon.
Great to see Tony Woodley on bbc this morning reduce this dispute to "the Judge standing up for his own class"
Potentially 2500 cabin crew sacked, think of the savings
Of course the direction of this dispute could change this afternoon.
Great to see Tony Woodley on bbc this morning reduce this dispute to "the Judge standing up for his own class"
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There seems to be a bit of a misunderstanding going on, on PPRUNE and in the news media..
It keeps being said that if BASSA/UNITE lose the appeal (if it even gets heard) then they will simply re-ballot for another strike.
Not that simple I'm afraid, if they lose the appeal then the strike in March was ILLEGAL. I'll say that again, the strike in March was ILLEGAL. BA then have the right to sack anyone who breached their contract and went on an illegal strike, and they also have clear grounds to sue UNITE for their incurred losses (approx £60m).
If UNITE lose the appeal, there will be NO re-ballot, they will be begging BA to offer them anything and they will sign-up to anything to prevent the Union being made bankrupt.
Personally, I think UNITE will cut BASSA loose to sink or swim (Sink in this case) as part of an A$$ saving deal with BA, and then BASSA will be sued back to the Stone Age.
IF UNITE lose the appeal, then any Striking crew and BASSA supporters are totally at the Mercy of WW. All you can hope for is that he shows you more than you deserve.
This is the End-Game, and I think we know who has won.
CB
It keeps being said that if BASSA/UNITE lose the appeal (if it even gets heard) then they will simply re-ballot for another strike.
Not that simple I'm afraid, if they lose the appeal then the strike in March was ILLEGAL. I'll say that again, the strike in March was ILLEGAL. BA then have the right to sack anyone who breached their contract and went on an illegal strike, and they also have clear grounds to sue UNITE for their incurred losses (approx £60m).
If UNITE lose the appeal, there will be NO re-ballot, they will be begging BA to offer them anything and they will sign-up to anything to prevent the Union being made bankrupt.
Personally, I think UNITE will cut BASSA loose to sink or swim (Sink in this case) as part of an A$$ saving deal with BA, and then BASSA will be sued back to the Stone Age.
IF UNITE lose the appeal, then any Striking crew and BASSA supporters are totally at the Mercy of WW. All you can hope for is that he shows you more than you deserve.
This is the End-Game, and I think we know who has won.
CB
Eddy,
I do enjoy your postings and hope you do not give up despite some of the aggression that is being shown towards you, however you posted something which goes straight to the heart of the matter. You wrote,
I also work for BA and I care for the company (because they pay my wages), the passengers (because they pay my wages), fellow crew (both flight and cabin), ground staff, management team, sales teams, waterside staff etc etc.
I hope you see my point and why Ms Mallone is leading the company to the edge of destruction because, for her, crew needs come before all other considerations. Even as a union rep this should never be the case.
I do enjoy your postings and hope you do not give up despite some of the aggression that is being shown towards you, however you posted something which goes straight to the heart of the matter. You wrote,
but she cares about one thing and one thing only - CREW
I hope you see my point and why Ms Mallone is leading the company to the edge of destruction because, for her, crew needs come before all other considerations. Even as a union rep this should never be the case.
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Re Ballot
Crash and Burn, dead right!!
Even if (in the unlikely event) they do re-ballot, I doubt they'll get the supporters needed for another round. Apart from the die-hard militants, quite a number of crew will be feeling very angry and let down (once again) by the union and probably wouldn't want to put their necks on the chopping block again for such an inept bunch such as Bassa.
I would imagine there are a lot of very worried crew now who are sorry they ever even took part in this illegal strike and their trust in Bassa has all but diminished and who can blame them? If they re-ballot, maybe they'll get a majority yes vote, but it certainly won't be 81% (which really was only about 63% except they were being economic with the figures) and considering the number of crew deserting them and changing their minds from yes to no on this occasion, it's a lost cause before they even consider another ballot.
Game over. Pack up the bouncy castle and samosa stall because I don't think it'll be needed again folks. Just now, hope and pray and you manage to keep your jobs and don't become the victims of Bassa's pointless war. I don't think WW will sack strikers anyway, but nonetheless, it's not nice being in that position, but if in their loonesy, they do decide to re-ballot, then I think he would sack them. Cut the arm off to save the body would be the only course of action left to take so I'd be very careful if I were going out on another strike!!!
Even if (in the unlikely event) they do re-ballot, I doubt they'll get the supporters needed for another round. Apart from the die-hard militants, quite a number of crew will be feeling very angry and let down (once again) by the union and probably wouldn't want to put their necks on the chopping block again for such an inept bunch such as Bassa.
I would imagine there are a lot of very worried crew now who are sorry they ever even took part in this illegal strike and their trust in Bassa has all but diminished and who can blame them? If they re-ballot, maybe they'll get a majority yes vote, but it certainly won't be 81% (which really was only about 63% except they were being economic with the figures) and considering the number of crew deserting them and changing their minds from yes to no on this occasion, it's a lost cause before they even consider another ballot.
Game over. Pack up the bouncy castle and samosa stall because I don't think it'll be needed again folks. Just now, hope and pray and you manage to keep your jobs and don't become the victims of Bassa's pointless war. I don't think WW will sack strikers anyway, but nonetheless, it's not nice being in that position, but if in their loonesy, they do decide to re-ballot, then I think he would sack them. Cut the arm off to save the body would be the only course of action left to take so I'd be very careful if I were going out on another strike!!!
Last edited by Get Smart; 18th May 2010 at 07:57. Reason: Added text
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Litebulbs - quite possibly. The company does have its sights on things like the redeployment agreement and careerlink. In an email last year, Bill Francis outlined what a new careerlink process would look like - 12 months only with a 25% run down of salary and severance payment every 3 months, with statutory redundancy at the end of the 12 month period if a job's been not found.
I believe there are still HR1's proposed in the PSU operation in T5 &T3 that have been put on ice for the present, as staff are presently needed to handle disruption. Also coming along are the head office rationalisations from the Iberia merger.
Change isn't going away. Most people in BA know this and there's going to be a need for negotiation to make sure it's done as painlessly as possible. BASSA are not helping the position of all the other staff unions in this respect.
Flap62 - good post. The No. 1 aim for every TU has to be ensuring their members have a job. No company, no job, no union. Wrecking a compnay on a point of principle has to be a gross dereliction of duty for a trade union.
I believe there are still HR1's proposed in the PSU operation in T5 &T3 that have been put on ice for the present, as staff are presently needed to handle disruption. Also coming along are the head office rationalisations from the Iberia merger.
Change isn't going away. Most people in BA know this and there's going to be a need for negotiation to make sure it's done as painlessly as possible. BASSA are not helping the position of all the other staff unions in this respect.
Flap62 - good post. The No. 1 aim for every TU has to be ensuring their members have a job. No company, no job, no union. Wrecking a compnay on a point of principle has to be a gross dereliction of duty for a trade union.
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So, any answer to the question then? The loss has gone up. The savings are going to have to come from somewhere.
Trying to change agreed deals with the majority of personell within BA (ground staff, managers, checkin staff, tug drivers, pilots, loaders, IT staff etc. etc. etc) to glean IfCE cost savings would be a drastic mistake and one that Willie would not make nor indeed need to make.
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Litebulbs
Dismissals are now available to BA, if they choose, for all crew who took part in unprotected industrial action (about 2000)
I don't think Willie's ready to go down that route yet- far more sensible to point to our CRITICAL finances and directly attribute them to dodgy industrial action and moribund union 'leaders', necessitating new contracts for all cabin crew accross the board, all crew on same, easily manageable contract, allowing for HUGE savings in back office admin too.
This is where I think he's heading.
He wants to be seen to be merciful (no compulsory redundancy & no culling) but he wants to effect real change.
That said, he wants to keep public and cc alike onside to a certain degree, so that new contract has to be cleverly devised to address all of BAs productivity requirements, slashing the enormous inefficiency and poor productivity whilst still offering carrots that appease the cc. I've always thought that (short haul) if our cc came in and worked a decent day instead of one-sector days and hanging around CRC, taking 2 hrs or however long 'at table', not doing fixed links etc etc.....if they worked like cc in other airlines, BUT STILL WELL WITHIN THE UK CAA LEGAL 900 HOURS (which only came in for cc quite recently as a restriction at all I think)...IF they worked sensibly, the ineffeciency and associated costs are so high in current BA, that Willie could offer every cabin crew member two extra days off every month, 5 days extra holiday a year, protected & guaranteed pay, the original share scheme offer and reinstate (reduced) staff travel for strikers, AND EASILY SAVE THE MONEY THAT WAS ASKED OF THE CABIN CREW.
I don't think Willie's ready to go down that route yet- far more sensible to point to our CRITICAL finances and directly attribute them to dodgy industrial action and moribund union 'leaders', necessitating new contracts for all cabin crew accross the board, all crew on same, easily manageable contract, allowing for HUGE savings in back office admin too.
This is where I think he's heading.
He wants to be seen to be merciful (no compulsory redundancy & no culling) but he wants to effect real change.
That said, he wants to keep public and cc alike onside to a certain degree, so that new contract has to be cleverly devised to address all of BAs productivity requirements, slashing the enormous inefficiency and poor productivity whilst still offering carrots that appease the cc. I've always thought that (short haul) if our cc came in and worked a decent day instead of one-sector days and hanging around CRC, taking 2 hrs or however long 'at table', not doing fixed links etc etc.....if they worked like cc in other airlines, BUT STILL WELL WITHIN THE UK CAA LEGAL 900 HOURS (which only came in for cc quite recently as a restriction at all I think)...IF they worked sensibly, the ineffeciency and associated costs are so high in current BA, that Willie could offer every cabin crew member two extra days off every month, 5 days extra holiday a year, protected & guaranteed pay, the original share scheme offer and reinstate (reduced) staff travel for strikers, AND EASILY SAVE THE MONEY THAT WAS ASKED OF THE CABIN CREW.