British Airways vs. BASSA (Airline Staff Only)
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Like I said, when a job becomes redundant...it is the job that goes. The role can become redundant without the person that had been doing that job being made redundant.
This kind of thing happens a lot. When the BA management grades were offered redundancy, some roles were ended, but the people who had been in those roles were able if they wished, (as there was a voluntary redundancy offer) to apply for other roles.
BA can remove pursers or CSD's, as long as they can prove the role no longer exists and make people redundant if there is an overall headcount reduction...but it does not have to follow that the people made redundant would be existing CSD's or pursers.
Juan Tugoh, I think the employment contract in BA still blocks them from doing as you suggest. I think if people are moved into a new role because of commercial/operational requirements, their contract allows them to remain on the same salary or higher? Though I understand BA are trying to remove this for all employees?
This kind of thing happens a lot. When the BA management grades were offered redundancy, some roles were ended, but the people who had been in those roles were able if they wished, (as there was a voluntary redundancy offer) to apply for other roles.
BA can remove pursers or CSD's, as long as they can prove the role no longer exists and make people redundant if there is an overall headcount reduction...but it does not have to follow that the people made redundant would be existing CSD's or pursers.
Juan Tugoh, I think the employment contract in BA still blocks them from doing as you suggest. I think if people are moved into a new role because of commercial/operational requirements, their contract allows them to remain on the same salary or higher? Though I understand BA are trying to remove this for all employees?
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Please put SOSR to bed, technically it is possible but very doubtful even the big bad Mr Walsh would attempt to use it.
The big question is what do BASSA and the members do next?
Assuming the deal revealed on Tuesday is still pretty reasonable to 99% of the worlds population, BASSA will still say no because it won't give staff travel back or unsuspend crew or give a blood signed income guarantee for the next 10,000 years.
Will crew still be shouting "strike" after all the chaos of the last few days?
Is the ash cloud to BASSA's advantage or Willies'?
How far will Crew/BASSA push this to ensure they don't take the rumoured 40% paycut that never was and never will be?
Well, do they give up or are they as determined as ever?
The big question is what do BASSA and the members do next?
Assuming the deal revealed on Tuesday is still pretty reasonable to 99% of the worlds population, BASSA will still say no because it won't give staff travel back or unsuspend crew or give a blood signed income guarantee for the next 10,000 years.
Will crew still be shouting "strike" after all the chaos of the last few days?
Is the ash cloud to BASSA's advantage or Willies'?
How far will Crew/BASSA push this to ensure they don't take the rumoured 40% paycut that never was and never will be?
Well, do they give up or are they as determined as ever?
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Does Unite need the british public to forgive it? The anger of the public would be with Unite's actions...but surely the consequence of that anger will be felt by BA or possibly the current government. Only because the british public can act on its indignation with those two...the public do not buy tickets off unite or vote it into power.
I have no real idea of which way Unite will move after Tuesday. Perhaps it will actually go neither of the ways you suggest. It is possible that BASSA reject a deal (if one has been tabled) and still set no strike date. Continue the dispute (continuing to damage forward bookings and the finances of BA) and delay calling the next dates. I think they would find this a difficult path to persuade the members to accept.
It is hard to guess what 10,000 other people are thinking. There are a lot of calls for an immediate and long strike, both by crew that have already been on strike and those that haven't yet. Maybe the union will be able to convince them to hold off, if there is reason to. I have heard no calls from the members to give up. (Though that could be because they are silent)
Whether the ash ends up advantaging Willy or the crew depends on too many things...I have really no idea what stance Willy is likely to take about the grounding and what strategy he will use to get the airline working again. I haven't heard anything from him since the first day (I don't really watch TV)...has anyone spoken to him or seen any briefing or interview from him?
The union and its members decisions will be influenced by the management's stance as well as whatever the reps and Tony advise. I hear that BA continues to train SBV's to act as cabin crew, which tends to be seen as deliberately antagonistic and an escalation of hostilities.
I have no real idea of which way Unite will move after Tuesday. Perhaps it will actually go neither of the ways you suggest. It is possible that BASSA reject a deal (if one has been tabled) and still set no strike date. Continue the dispute (continuing to damage forward bookings and the finances of BA) and delay calling the next dates. I think they would find this a difficult path to persuade the members to accept.
It is hard to guess what 10,000 other people are thinking. There are a lot of calls for an immediate and long strike, both by crew that have already been on strike and those that haven't yet. Maybe the union will be able to convince them to hold off, if there is reason to. I have heard no calls from the members to give up. (Though that could be because they are silent)
Whether the ash ends up advantaging Willy or the crew depends on too many things...I have really no idea what stance Willy is likely to take about the grounding and what strategy he will use to get the airline working again. I haven't heard anything from him since the first day (I don't really watch TV)...has anyone spoken to him or seen any briefing or interview from him?
The union and its members decisions will be influenced by the management's stance as well as whatever the reps and Tony advise. I hear that BA continues to train SBV's to act as cabin crew, which tends to be seen as deliberately antagonistic and an escalation of hostilities.
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From BA Intranet is the message that last nights test flight flew successfully, experiencing no problems after a stepped ascent and staying at 40,000 ft for 1 hour.
On board, in addition to the two pilots and Stephen Riley from Flight Ops, one Mr William Walsh Esq. Wonder what the BASSA website posters will make of that?
On board, in addition to the two pilots and Stephen Riley from Flight Ops, one Mr William Walsh Esq. Wonder what the BASSA website posters will make of that?
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The ash cloud has cost BA money. As a result it can stand less nonsense from BASSA. Some crew will see this as a positive, hoping it will force WW to aced to their demands. Others will see this as a negative; BA are now left with less options and will be forced to use more draconian measures sooner.
UNITE are left with less options. The political dymanic here cannot be underestimated. If one TV debate can give the LibDems a huge boost and force Labour into 3rd place in some polls, can you imagine the the dreadful press that would ensue should UNITE call any long action?
UNITE are left with less options. The political dymanic here cannot be underestimated. If one TV debate can give the LibDems a huge boost and force Labour into 3rd place in some polls, can you imagine the the dreadful press that would ensue should UNITE call any long action?
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Good PR ??
In view of the present difficulties in aviation with volcanic ash, I would have thought it was the perfect time for Unite/Bassa to call off industrial action (in order to assist those poor stranded passengers) with no loss of face, gain good PR and look again at what is on the table. Even perhaps ballot their members??
Last edited by 77; 19th Apr 2010 at 08:37. Reason: Title
Whilst I do not fully meet the posting code, may I make a small point of legal fact?
The 'captain' is legally referred to as 'Pilot in Command' and is therefore not 'in charge' of the aircraft but 'in command' thereoff.
The SCCM is 'in charge' of the cabin services and their authority devolves from the PiC.
The 'captain' is legally referred to as 'Pilot in Command' and is therefore not 'in charge' of the aircraft but 'in command' thereoff.
The SCCM is 'in charge' of the cabin services and their authority devolves from the PiC.
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Just wondered if any of the BASSA supporters currently sitting at home on no allowances for the last five days could now possibly, perhaps, maybe realise the benefits of the Monthly Travel Payment?
Had UNITE agreed this last June, at the lucrative 2008/9 rates, many of us would be sitting in a much better position right now. Just another BASSA failing to add to the list.
Had UNITE agreed this last June, at the lucrative 2008/9 rates, many of us would be sitting in a much better position right now. Just another BASSA failing to add to the list.
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You may well be right Hiflyer, but equally, from a company survival point of view, I'm sure BA are glad they are not losing even more money per day. There may even be a learning point for them about protecting against future massive disruptions.
I heard yesterday speculation that BMI will be concerned about how long they can sustain this stoppage for; they won't be the only ones.
I don't think that the UNITE members, or indeed the rest of us, can afford to be picky about the offer. Losing a weeks allowances for 'ash' disruptions is already leaving people worried about reduced income. Will the BASSA faithful who have not been stuck down-route be able to afford any further action?
I heard yesterday speculation that BMI will be concerned about how long they can sustain this stoppage for; they won't be the only ones.
I don't think the British public would forgive Unite for calling a strike soon after they struggle to get back home.
Last edited by ottergirl; 19th Apr 2010 at 09:33.
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BA seeks state aid amid £20m a day volcano costs - Times Online
BBC News - British Airways seeks compensation for ash chaos
This is now getting very serious
The only advantage is that all large European airlines are in this mess, so a pan European rescue effort will be perceived by all as being slightly better than a bail out of just 1 airline.
BMI are under the umbrella of Lufthansa, but I wonder who long it will be before they cut and run away?
Its a sobering thought, especially when you see some of the comment on "other forums" from very well less informed colleagues
With all that is happening it would be interesting to see if UNITE/BASSA have the wit to take the high ground and not announce strike dates? I mean what would be the point at the moment.
BBC News - British Airways seeks compensation for ash chaos
This is now getting very serious
The only advantage is that all large European airlines are in this mess, so a pan European rescue effort will be perceived by all as being slightly better than a bail out of just 1 airline.
BMI are under the umbrella of Lufthansa, but I wonder who long it will be before they cut and run away?
Its a sobering thought, especially when you see some of the comment on "other forums" from very well less informed colleagues
With all that is happening it would be interesting to see if UNITE/BASSA have the wit to take the high ground and not announce strike dates? I mean what would be the point at the moment.
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It may be the first thing we have to smile about in the last five days, but I can see just a touch of irony developing here.
CC pay Unite £10-£15 per month subscription fees. Unite pay the Labour Govt £XXmillion. The Labour Gov pay BA £XXmillion volcanic ash bailout ON THE PROVISO THERE ARE NO FURTHER STRIKES.
Oh, poetic justice at last.
CC pay Unite £10-£15 per month subscription fees. Unite pay the Labour Govt £XXmillion. The Labour Gov pay BA £XXmillion volcanic ash bailout ON THE PROVISO THERE ARE NO FURTHER STRIKES.
Oh, poetic justice at last.
Last edited by HiFlyer14; 19th Apr 2010 at 15:51.
Interesting perspective on Unite's Political officer who has been at the heart of bullying and harrasment allegations against BA's macho management organisation!
How Charlie Whelan killed New Labour | The Spectator
How Charlie Whelan killed New Labour | The Spectator
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To get back to the main purpose of this thread.
I've just been reading another thread under Cabin Crew on here, "All Air Lingus cabin crew to be made redundant".
It's only two pages long and dates from 10 March this year. It is, in my opinion, absolutely required reading for anyone posting an opinion on this thread, especially the penultimate post, which is a link to the Irish Times.
If you are a BASSA supporter, please, I beg you read it.
Begs the question, are all these volunteers/temps that have been trained (continue to be trained?) JUST for strike breaking duties?
I've just been reading another thread under Cabin Crew on here, "All Air Lingus cabin crew to be made redundant".
It's only two pages long and dates from 10 March this year. It is, in my opinion, absolutely required reading for anyone posting an opinion on this thread, especially the penultimate post, which is a link to the Irish Times.
If you are a BASSA supporter, please, I beg you read it.
Begs the question, are all these volunteers/temps that have been trained (continue to be trained?) JUST for strike breaking duties?
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There's also this:
RTÉ News: Aer Lingus crew to get minimum redundancy pay
Which contains this snippet:"It is understood that the airline intends to make all senior cabin crew members, known as cabin managers, compulsorily redundant in an attempt to 'de-layer' the cabin crew organisation system."
Whilst I'm sure Irish Labour Law and UK Labour Law are very different could I suggest that in the light of very recent events now might not be the time to be "tickling the tail of a sleeping dragon"........
RTÉ News: Aer Lingus crew to get minimum redundancy pay
Which contains this snippet:"It is understood that the airline intends to make all senior cabin crew members, known as cabin managers, compulsorily redundant in an attempt to 'de-layer' the cabin crew organisation system."
Whilst I'm sure Irish Labour Law and UK Labour Law are very different could I suggest that in the light of very recent events now might not be the time to be "tickling the tail of a sleeping dragon"........