British Airways vs. BASSA (Airline Staff Only)
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The BASSA faithful are expecting an announcement today from Tony Woodley - as yet there is nothing on either CrewForum or BASSA forum.
Exactly Ottergirl, which merely proves the point I was making: if we had agreed all of this last June, we would be in a much better position. Things are currently looking very bleak and any offer can, regrettably, only now deteriorate even further than it has already.
Yet, unbelievably some think a strike now would be the best way forward.
You may well be right Hiflyer, but equally, from a company survival point of view, I'm sure BA are glad they are not losing even more money per day. There may even be a learning point for them about protecting against future massive disruptions.
Yet, unbelievably some think a strike now would be the best way forward.
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That's my understanding too, hence my reference to the Irish Times article you quote in my post 1992.
However, can BASSA salwarts not see the parallels to our situation?
Do we really need to go to the brink, as Air Lingus did, before being forced to go into damage limitation?
Would enough of the membership be able to see that it was all over, and vote the way the Air Lingus crews did in the second ballot?
Given recent history, and emotions running as they are, I'm not sure.
However, can BASSA salwarts not see the parallels to our situation?
Do we really need to go to the brink, as Air Lingus did, before being forced to go into damage limitation?
Would enough of the membership be able to see that it was all over, and vote the way the Air Lingus crews did in the second ballot?
Given recent history, and emotions running as they are, I'm not sure.
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The latest posts about Aer lingus have been moved to the dedicated thread in this Forum. While some of the aspects of the Aer Lingus dispute might be relevant to this topic, the point is not to post everything about it on this thread.
Please, from now on post about Aer Lingus here http://www.pprune.org/cabin-crew/408...redundant.html
Please, from now on post about Aer Lingus here http://www.pprune.org/cabin-crew/408...redundant.html
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Flyblue
the parallels between the 2 groups of cabin crew are very similar!!
There are NO posts left here re the Aer Lingus dispute, but there should be because BA crew must be aware of their potential fate if left in the hands of belligerent and non negotiating union reps.
BA crew are being told NOTHING by their elected reps.
Other than some excuse about so many reps being suspended or stuck down route that they are unable to function!?!?!
It is likely that BA now have more reason to play much harder than they have to date. Yet some crew still - incredibly -believe that a non-negotiation / all out strike is the best policy!
the parallels between the 2 groups of cabin crew are very similar!!
There are NO posts left here re the Aer Lingus dispute, but there should be because BA crew must be aware of their potential fate if left in the hands of belligerent and non negotiating union reps.
BA crew are being told NOTHING by their elected reps.
Other than some excuse about so many reps being suspended or stuck down route that they are unable to function!?!?!
It is likely that BA now have more reason to play much harder than they have to date. Yet some crew still - incredibly -believe that a non-negotiation / all out strike is the best policy!
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Message from BASSA reps
A potential settlement offer has been put to the reps. They have asked for clarification of a number of points. Once they receive those they will publish the document for the members to review.
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A colleague who is currently a BASSA member(but about to resign) has just forwarded this to me. The areas covered in the document are as below.
The document outlined a potential proposal to settle the current dispute and a way forward for the future. The document covers the following areas.
Pay awards
Crewing levels
New fleet
Protections for existing crew
Monthly travel payment
Transfers
Promotions
Future relationship
Disruption
Part time
Contractual employment policy changes
Not all of the areas were clearly worded and subject to interpretation and therefore further clarity has been sought. When we have received that clarity and when the outstanding items are resolved, we shall publish the entire document for your review.
Two pivotal issues remain unresolved -
Reinstatement of staff travel and the dispute related disciplinaries.
We know this is incredibly frustrating for you, as it is for us. But be assured, any next step will rest with you.
You as the members will have the final say
Pay awards
Crewing levels
New fleet
Protections for existing crew
Monthly travel payment
Transfers
Promotions
Future relationship
Disruption
Part time
Contractual employment policy changes
Not all of the areas were clearly worded and subject to interpretation and therefore further clarity has been sought. When we have received that clarity and when the outstanding items are resolved, we shall publish the entire document for your review.
Two pivotal issues remain unresolved -
Reinstatement of staff travel and the dispute related disciplinaries.
We know this is incredibly frustrating for you, as it is for us. But be assured, any next step will rest with you.
You as the members will have the final say
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The document outlined a potential proposal to settle the current dispute and a way forward for the future. The document covers the following areas.
Pay awards
Crewing levels
New fleet
Protections for existing crew
Monthly travel payment
Transfers
Promotions
Future relationship
Disruption
Part time
Contractual employment policy changes
Pay awards
Crewing levels
New fleet
Protections for existing crew
Monthly travel payment
Transfers
Promotions
Future relationship
Disruption
Part time
Contractual employment policy changes
And so the clock keeps ticking to the end of the 12 week period of legal protection. If I was a striker I would be very clear about what could happen on day 85 after the initial strike date and ask myself:
1) Why are temps and volunteers still being trained
2) Why is WW so certain that staff travel will not be re-instated. Could it be because in about two months time, every member who went on strike will no longer work for the company and therefore the re-instatement is not a factor.
1) Why are temps and volunteers still being trained
2) Why is WW so certain that staff travel will not be re-instated. Could it be because in about two months time, every member who went on strike will no longer work for the company and therefore the re-instatement is not a factor.
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Could it be because in about two months time, every member who went on strike will no longer work for the company and therefore the re-instatement is not a factor.
Or could just because, unlike many people, once he's made a decision he sticks to it.
IMHO ST will never be returned, whether these people stay in BA or move on. It is not an "unresolved" issue for WW.
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Staff Travel
I too can not imagine WW reinstating staff travel, especially as he's been so adamant, stating categorically to staff and the media alike in such an assertive manner. Furthermore, I'm sure he would also be aware that many staff will be totally p****d off after extraordinary efforts to keep our business going.
It would surely be absolute madness now for any of the militant hot heads to spout off in the wake of this volcanic ash issue. But hey, nothing would surprise me on hearing about some postings on the BASSA website.
It would surely be absolute madness now for any of the militant hot heads to spout off in the wake of this volcanic ash issue. But hey, nothing would surprise me on hearing about some postings on the BASSA website.
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....and the reinstatement of staff travel and those under suspension.
They will be appealing but have been added to the BASSA list of things to be resolved. Very bad timing all in all.
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Very bad timing all in all.
Should a proposal now be put to the CC I would guess that, with the change in the real politik - we are in the middle of a potentially industry changing event with the volcanic ash, the general election campaign, the proof that WW does not make idle threats - he carries through on his statements, it is highly unlikely that such an offer would be rejected.
Those who voted no in order to force WW to the negotiating table can now see this was pointless, he was always there, sadly BASSA were not. Many more now are sick of the whole ineffectual issue and just want it to end. Only the hotheads and those with nothing to lose, who are in a minority, as they are in any dispute, will vow to fight to the bitter end.
BASSA are saying it is in the hands of the membership as to whether a deal will be accepted. Let's hope that is the case.
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Ottergirl
Not really, its just BA saying that they manage cabin and crew not BASSA, think about it, BA could have had the hearing at any time that suited them, the fact it coincided with UNITES "update" may, have just been intentional.
In response to UNITES "update" I would say that the key is what was not said. No rhetoric this time round, no promises on staff travel or suspensions. Just a simple
What BA Cabin Crew now need to ask themselves is how everyone will vote?
There are only circa 3000 cabin crew who have gone on strike, look at the stories of people turning up to Bedfont then going to work the next day.
Look at the stories of woe from those that have lost staff travel, and ask yourself will their colleagues stand by them if any proposal is put to a free vote.
The first of our colleagues that were suspended was dismissed today after a disciplinary hearing around Facebook activity. 
They will be appealing but have been added to the BASSA list of things to be resolved. Very bad timing all in all.
They will be appealing but have been added to the BASSA list of things to be resolved. Very bad timing all in all.
In response to UNITES "update" I would say that the key is what was not said. No rhetoric this time round, no promises on staff travel or suspensions. Just a simple
We know this is incredibly frustrating for you, as it is for us. But be assured, any next step will rest with you.
You as the members will have the final say.
You as the members will have the final say.
There are only circa 3000 cabin crew who have gone on strike, look at the stories of people turning up to Bedfont then going to work the next day.
Look at the stories of woe from those that have lost staff travel, and ask yourself will their colleagues stand by them if any proposal is put to a free vote.
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any proposal is put to a free vote
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Message to BASSA:
"Not all of the areas were clearly worded and subject to interpretation and therefore further clarity has been sought. When we have received that clarity and when the outstanding items are resolved, we shall publish the entire document for your review" (BASSAs opinion on yesterdays settlement proposal.)
Might one be so bold as to suggest that -THAT WAS ALL THAT WAS B****Y WELL REQUIRED WITH PREVIOUS OFFERS FROM BA!
All you had to do (MONTHS AGO) with the Fixed Monthly Payment, New Fleet work transfer, and the Disruption Agreement etc. was to go through each document carefully, making sure the wording was clear and unambiguous, perhaps doing a bit of CALM negociation of your own over some of the detail and JOB DONE: an inevitably better package than we'll end up with now, no loss of staff travel, no suspensions/dismissals, no lost millions of pounds of OUR revenue, no loss of goodwill from OUR customers, no loss of repect for unionisation (and thus no loss of influence), no bitter divisions between colleagues, no ridicule from other staff, the public and the media, and no loss of membership (in fact you may even have INCREASED membership.
Many of us urged you, BASSA/Unite, to do this, we virtually begged you to do it. But you had to make it a personal mission to oust WW and to protect your own future membership levels from the threat of a more poorly paid future workforce. You showed scant regard for what was best for your membership by this stance, and compounded it by spinning, misinforming and misleading your members to stir up support for your own mission, knowing that you could get away with it because you have historically such a loyal membership.
Well, it looks like that strategy has backfired on you spectacularly. Unfortunately it's also harmed us, the crew you claim to represent.
I hope that a lot more people see now what has been going on for the last 16 months and vote with their feet.
"Not all of the areas were clearly worded and subject to interpretation and therefore further clarity has been sought. When we have received that clarity and when the outstanding items are resolved, we shall publish the entire document for your review" (BASSAs opinion on yesterdays settlement proposal.)
Might one be so bold as to suggest that -THAT WAS ALL THAT WAS B****Y WELL REQUIRED WITH PREVIOUS OFFERS FROM BA!
All you had to do (MONTHS AGO) with the Fixed Monthly Payment, New Fleet work transfer, and the Disruption Agreement etc. was to go through each document carefully, making sure the wording was clear and unambiguous, perhaps doing a bit of CALM negociation of your own over some of the detail and JOB DONE: an inevitably better package than we'll end up with now, no loss of staff travel, no suspensions/dismissals, no lost millions of pounds of OUR revenue, no loss of goodwill from OUR customers, no loss of repect for unionisation (and thus no loss of influence), no bitter divisions between colleagues, no ridicule from other staff, the public and the media, and no loss of membership (in fact you may even have INCREASED membership.
Many of us urged you, BASSA/Unite, to do this, we virtually begged you to do it. But you had to make it a personal mission to oust WW and to protect your own future membership levels from the threat of a more poorly paid future workforce. You showed scant regard for what was best for your membership by this stance, and compounded it by spinning, misinforming and misleading your members to stir up support for your own mission, knowing that you could get away with it because you have historically such a loyal membership.
Well, it looks like that strategy has backfired on you spectacularly. Unfortunately it's also harmed us, the crew you claim to represent.
I hope that a lot more people see now what has been going on for the last 16 months and vote with their feet.
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Well said Beagle. The offer will be what has been on the table all along - although revised downwards a few notches. All this pain for NO GAIN whatsoever.
It should also be noted that BASSA/Unite are still banging on about crew complements. Look, after the past 6 days of non-flying, many of us would operate a 747 with one in each cabin if necessary (joke, Mr Walsh
).
Therefore I would add to Beagle's eloquent message to BASSA:
Please note that by insisting on putting crew back on planes, you are bringing New Fleet upon us faster than necessary. You have secured little or nothing to protect us against New Fleet and you are causing us to lose money in the form of additional allowances being removed.
The Professional Cabin Crew Council believes that cabin crew don't want or need more crew back on planes. The money saved by not putting crew back on could then be negotiated to reinstate some of the following:
a. MTP at 2008/9 rates instead of current
b. The lost bonus and 3 year pay deal
c. The lost share option
And most importantly, it would possibly delay the start-up of New Fleet.
If you want security against New Fleet rather than an additional crew member back on a few select routes you need to email the Professional Cabin Crew Council now. www.professionalcrewcouncil.com
It should also be noted that BASSA/Unite are still banging on about crew complements.
Look, after the past 6 days of non-flying, many of us would operate a 747 with one in each cabin if necessary (joke, Mr Walsh). Therefore I would add to Beagle's eloquent message to BASSA:
Please note that by insisting on putting crew back on planes, you are bringing New Fleet upon us faster than necessary. You have secured little or nothing to protect us against New Fleet and you are causing us to lose money in the form of additional allowances being removed.
The Professional Cabin Crew Council believes that cabin crew don't want or need more crew back on planes. The money saved by not putting crew back on could then be negotiated to reinstate some of the following:
a. MTP at 2008/9 rates instead of current
b. The lost bonus and 3 year pay deal
c. The lost share option
And most importantly, it would possibly delay the start-up of New Fleet.
If you want security against New Fleet rather than an additional crew member back on a few select routes you need to email the Professional Cabin Crew Council now. www.professionalcrewcouncil.com
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HiFlyer, why do you still insist on keeping secret your true identity?
A respectful question....
I would never have joined Bassa had they said on my New Entrant Course that the reps - and certainly the chair - refused to be identified because they were afraid of the consequences.
What you're doing is admirable, if you feel it's of benefit to the community, but how can we really put any faith in someone seemingly too afraid to be identified?
A respectful question....
I would never have joined Bassa had they said on my New Entrant Course that the reps - and certainly the chair - refused to be identified because they were afraid of the consequences.
What you're doing is admirable, if you feel it's of benefit to the community, but how can we really put any faith in someone seemingly too afraid to be identified?
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Sporran,
I'd hesitate to say that Eddy's question was naive. He does make a point that, if not now, certainly at some point in the future, the PCCC will have to have a face or two in order to effectively represent. Now may well not be that time but I'd think in order to obtain a critical mass of members, there will have to be some leaders to coalesce around eventually.
MrB
I'd hesitate to say that Eddy's question was naive. He does make a point that, if not now, certainly at some point in the future, the PCCC will have to have a face or two in order to effectively represent. Now may well not be that time but I'd think in order to obtain a critical mass of members, there will have to be some leaders to coalesce around eventually.
MrB