British Airways vs. BASSA (Airline Staff Only)
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Hot rumour today regarding the settlement & staff travel - the strikers will be offered ST on one route (a "get you to work" route) and an unlimited number of tickets at the equivalent of ID50. Genius - congratulations BASSA, another own goal.
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Originally Posted by MissM
The answer is very simple and I don't think they are only looking after themselves. Once New Fleet is up and running it's only a matter of time before we are all stuck on the ground because there won't be any trips left for us to operate. It's not scaremongering. It's exactly what will happen.
New Fleet gets a couple of destinations, let's say HKG, DEL, GVA and MAN. That's four destinations. We remain untouched until further. Then they are transferring another group of destinations. Less crew will be needed on EF and WW. Another group of destination goes and here we go again. BA might leave us as we are for the moment but not not a chance in the long-term perspective.
All of you can argue as much as you want that this won't happen but unfortunately I don't have this amount of trust.
New Fleet gets a couple of destinations, let's say HKG, DEL, GVA and MAN. That's four destinations. We remain untouched until further. Then they are transferring another group of destinations. Less crew will be needed on EF and WW. Another group of destination goes and here we go again. BA might leave us as we are for the moment but not not a chance in the long-term perspective.
All of you can argue as much as you want that this won't happen but unfortunately I don't have this amount of trust.
I have to say, I have far more faith in BA to be fair than you seem to. I am perhaps naive, but to be honest we've been through all this before.
Three years ago when we were on the very cusp of strike action before it was all called off, a deal was made that the crew community seemed to dislike despite it being voted in by the Bassa committee.
Have you noticed any difference as a result of this change in agreements? I haven't. I earn much the same as I did back then - if not slightly more - and I'm not working any harder REALLY than I used to.
I'm all for protecting my terms and conditions if they need to be protected, but I'm not going to lie to myself and say that the removal of the extra crew member has made my job unbearable; nor am I going to say that I think the customer suffers greatly as a result of the reduction in crewing levels.
I wish I could say those things, for it would make life a hell of a lot easier for me, but I can't. And I won't.
I understand that the Crew Forum and Bassa forum have gone mental over Tony's comments, but that's somewhat unsurprising. The people who frequent these forums have my utmost and absolute respect for doing what they have done - standing up for their beliefs - but they won't listen to anything that isn't entirely in favour of Bassa, nor will they consider that Mr. Walsh is so determined in his desire to push through the changes he wants that strike action is, sadly, going to prove nothing but detremental to all involved.
I recognise the importance of unions without doubt, but I also recognise that sometimes the union - or atleast some of our union's most militant members - would turn their noses up at a blank cheque if Mr. Walsh offered it, not being prepared to trust that there aren't strings attached.
It saddens me that anyone can have as little faith and/or trust in their employer as many crew members seem to suggest they have.
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Originally Posted by dontdoit
Hot rumour today regarding the settlement & staff travel - the strikers will be offered ST on one route (a "get you to work" route) and an unlimited number of tickets at the equivalent of ID50. Genius - congratulations BASSA, another own goal.
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...and the thousands of non striking cabin crew have the same opinion too. They just don't say it unless they are sure they are in the company of like minded people, obviously!
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Eddy
How nice of her!
Working with less crew itself not the issue. The issue is about BA imposing changes and the problem is if we give in this time they know that they can get away with in the future. I don't have any problems with working with less crew onboard because there's enough time to get the service done and we get crew rest as per our agreements. Still, the bottom line is that BA is not honoring our agreements and it's not the first time and probably not the last time either.
Like you say, some crew won't listen to anything BA says and some of them can't even be bothered to read anything of what the company is sending out to us. It's their problem for not keeping up the pace and that's a shame but there's probably a reason to it.
How nice of her!
Working with less crew itself not the issue. The issue is about BA imposing changes and the problem is if we give in this time they know that they can get away with in the future. I don't have any problems with working with less crew onboard because there's enough time to get the service done and we get crew rest as per our agreements. Still, the bottom line is that BA is not honoring our agreements and it's not the first time and probably not the last time either.
Like you say, some crew won't listen to anything BA says and some of them can't even be bothered to read anything of what the company is sending out to us. It's their problem for not keeping up the pace and that's a shame but there's probably a reason to it.
Controversial, moi?
Still, the bottom line is that BA is not honoring(sic) our agreements and it's not the first time and probably not the last time either.
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Same old story....
The pro-BASSA posters here appear to have faled to grasp that it is BASSA themselves that have caused imposition.
Back in Jan/Feb 2009 WW gave each deprtment their savings target, the deadline was June 30th 2009. WW stated that if agreement could not be reached then an IMPOSED settlement would occur. Early in July BASSA held a mass meeting at Kempton where they had 3 votes by show of hands - one of which was to NO LONGER NEGOTIATE.
So BASSA had the "we're not talking mandate", WW had his "I'm going to IMPOSE..." and that's exactly what he did.
Now he has said that he will remove staff travel privaledges from striking crew, and he did.
Do you see a theme here? Still think that staff travel will be coming back to striking crew, I know what I'd put the mortgage on.
Back in Jan/Feb 2009 WW gave each deprtment their savings target, the deadline was June 30th 2009. WW stated that if agreement could not be reached then an IMPOSED settlement would occur. Early in July BASSA held a mass meeting at Kempton where they had 3 votes by show of hands - one of which was to NO LONGER NEGOTIATE.
So BASSA had the "we're not talking mandate", WW had his "I'm going to IMPOSE..." and that's exactly what he did.
Now he has said that he will remove staff travel privaledges from striking crew, and he did.
Do you see a theme here? Still think that staff travel will be coming back to striking crew, I know what I'd put the mortgage on.
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The issue is about BA imposing changes and the problem is if we give in this time they know that they can get away with in the future.
OK Here's the maths....
BA set a date for savings and union have some say
+
Union throw toys out of pram and refuse to negotiate
= BA impose changes that they said they would
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I too think the Bloomberg article is incorrect - or at least misleading.
I don't believe BA have put a NEW offer on the table - they have retabled the old one as stated by WW in his column in last week's BA news.
I'm also unsure that "talks" are even taking place. Unite have stated on their website that they are - and even suggest progress/positive news.
However there is no mention of it from BA - either on the intranet or by email. There is also no mention of it, to my knowledge, in the national press. WW stated in last week's BA News that the offer was on the table and that we are waiting to hear whether Unite will ballot their members.
I think that's exactly where we are at. Otherwise, why have BA not indicated anywhere that they are in talks? Could it be that Unite are stalling, and not for the first time, misleading the members?
This is my own viewpoint and not that of BA.
I don't believe BA have put a NEW offer on the table - they have retabled the old one as stated by WW in his column in last week's BA news.
I'm also unsure that "talks" are even taking place. Unite have stated on their website that they are - and even suggest progress/positive news.
However there is no mention of it from BA - either on the intranet or by email. There is also no mention of it, to my knowledge, in the national press. WW stated in last week's BA News that the offer was on the table and that we are waiting to hear whether Unite will ballot their members.I think that's exactly where we are at. Otherwise, why have BA not indicated anywhere that they are in talks? Could it be that Unite are stalling, and not for the first time, misleading the members?
This is my own viewpoint and not that of BA.
Could it be that Unite are stalling, and not for the first time, misleading the members?
The ball is well and truely in the BASSA's Reps court....
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I'm confused now. You went on strike didn't you ? Why was that if you fully believe what you posted above ?
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MissM Re Post 1779 Work Transfer to New Fleet
Bill Francis has said many times, in print, that New Fleet will only grow (and have work transfered to it) at the rate Existing Fleets shrink due to natural wasteage (retirement, leaving voluntarily, sackings, ill health etc). (New routes would be subject to discussion).
This is different from what you say (and of course what BASSA say), which is the routes will be transfered first, before existing crew leave, leaving less work for the same number of existing crew. My question is, how on earth would that be to the company's benefit?
It has to employ duplicate crew onto New Fleet, to do the work prevoiusly done by the crew sitting at home on full basic and pensions contributions, doing nothing. What if those crew sitting at home actually quite like the idea of being at home being paid all this money for nothing by BA, while they supplement their lost allowances by a bit of part time bar work/decorating/gardening etc and don't actually leave? Let's face it you'd be a bit of a mug if you did. I'd love that to be the case. Where can I sign?
New Fleet only works for the company if the new crew REPLACE existing crew members, not if they duplicate them.
When BASSA put out these scaremongering claims, they do it knowing that many of their loyal membership will swallow it without actually thinking it through, to work out if it makes sense.
BASSA would be must better employed making sure that any agreement on New Fleet is written without any potential loopholes or ambiguity.
Bill Francis has said many times, in print, that New Fleet will only grow (and have work transfered to it) at the rate Existing Fleets shrink due to natural wasteage (retirement, leaving voluntarily, sackings, ill health etc). (New routes would be subject to discussion).
This is different from what you say (and of course what BASSA say), which is the routes will be transfered first, before existing crew leave, leaving less work for the same number of existing crew. My question is, how on earth would that be to the company's benefit?
It has to employ duplicate crew onto New Fleet, to do the work prevoiusly done by the crew sitting at home on full basic and pensions contributions, doing nothing. What if those crew sitting at home actually quite like the idea of being at home being paid all this money for nothing by BA, while they supplement their lost allowances by a bit of part time bar work/decorating/gardening etc and don't actually leave? Let's face it you'd be a bit of a mug if you did. I'd love that to be the case. Where can I sign?
New Fleet only works for the company if the new crew REPLACE existing crew members, not if they duplicate them.
When BASSA put out these scaremongering claims, they do it knowing that many of their loyal membership will swallow it without actually thinking it through, to work out if it makes sense.
BASSA would be must better employed making sure that any agreement on New Fleet is written without any potential loopholes or ambiguity.
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An excellent post Beagle9 that articulates very well why people should not be afraid of New Fleet.
It is also worth pointing out, in addition to the points you have made about the company NOT leaving us sitting at home, that the offer currently on the table will bring New Fleet on quicker. The first paragraph on Complements states:
So in order to appease BASSA and put crew back on, this offer will REDUCE our routes to provide the 184 crew and therfore start New Fleet sooner than necessary. BASSA are doing nothing to prevent New Fleet happening, in fact their insistence of putting crew back on planes is bringing New Fleet in quicker. They are doing nothing to secure the transfer of routes to New Fleet. They are doing nothing to secure our financial earnings against New Fleet. Yet still crew stand by them. Why?
Miss M and Eddy - You have both expressed that you don't always agree with Unite. Many of us who didn't get satisfactory answers when we asked questions have now left the Union, believing that withholding subscription fees is now the only thing they will understand. We are now trying to mobilise our community into realising that this Union are doing serious damage to our community by setting up the Professional Cabin Crew Council.
What steps have you taken on the issues that you don't agree with, with Unite? Have you had a satisfactory response?
It is also worth pointing out, in addition to the points you have made about the company NOT leaving us sitting at home, that the offer currently on the table will bring New Fleet on quicker. The first paragraph on Complements states:
The company will re-introduce a level of complement equivalent to a total of 184 full time crew into Eurofleet and Worldwide, the distribution of which will be determined by the company. Any new recruitment to facilitate complement changes will be into a new fleet.
So in order to appease BASSA and put crew back on, this offer will REDUCE our routes to provide the 184 crew and therfore start New Fleet sooner than necessary. BASSA are doing nothing to prevent New Fleet happening, in fact their insistence of putting crew back on planes is bringing New Fleet in quicker. They are doing nothing to secure the transfer of routes to New Fleet. They are doing nothing to secure our financial earnings against New Fleet. Yet still crew stand by them. Why?
Miss M and Eddy - You have both expressed that you don't always agree with Unite. Many of us who didn't get satisfactory answers when we asked questions have now left the Union, believing that withholding subscription fees is now the only thing they will understand. We are now trying to mobilise our community into realising that this Union are doing serious damage to our community by setting up the Professional Cabin Crew Council.
What steps have you taken on the issues that you don't agree with, with Unite? Have you had a satisfactory response?
Last edited by HiFlyer14; 15th Apr 2010 at 11:04.
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An excellent post Beagle9 that articulates very well why people should not be afraid of New Fleet.
Agree with you. I've just deleted my post as I misunderstood Beagle9's point.
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I am calling in all of you pilots and crew backing BA to show some support to BA.
BA is in need of your support again, so why not volunteering to help them today ?
BA is in need of your support again, so why not volunteering to help them today ?