British Airways vs. BASSA (Airline Staff Only)
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Latest from Unite:
Talks Update – 22/04/10
Discussions are ongoing to try and find a settlement and this could potentially continue until next Tuesday.
A proposal has been put forward by British Airways after discussions with Tony Woodley. As we have already stated, clarity is needed on the meaning of specific points contained within it so that we are all fully aware of any implications.
Whether your union is able to recommend rejection or acceptance of this offer depends not only on these points being clarified, but also alongside these, there remain the two main issues of contention - which are staff travel and the fifty plus disciplinary cases related to the industrial action which remain unresolved.
Ultimately the decision is yours, but we need the facts to answer your questions honestly and fully. As has been stated many times, we cannot accept that people that participated in lawful and legal action are singled out and victimised. We trust that you would support the position.
At this point in time it is our intention to seek your views in the form of an online ballot, which will run for a period of five days.
You will then either chose to accept the deal or give notice for further strike dates.
To repeat, our decision to recommend or reject this offer cannot be made at this point but only when discussions are concluded; the clarifications we require are received; and the treatment of those who supported the union is acceptable.
Tuesday is a few days away, please be patient and bear with us until then. We know how frustrated you are, as we can read your forum posts! But if there is a chance, no matter how slim, of reaching a fair settlement you would expect us to keep trying until it is proven to be impossible.
Discussions are ongoing to try and find a settlement and this could potentially continue until next Tuesday.
A proposal has been put forward by British Airways after discussions with Tony Woodley. As we have already stated, clarity is needed on the meaning of specific points contained within it so that we are all fully aware of any implications.
Whether your union is able to recommend rejection or acceptance of this offer depends not only on these points being clarified, but also alongside these, there remain the two main issues of contention - which are staff travel and the fifty plus disciplinary cases related to the industrial action which remain unresolved.
Ultimately the decision is yours, but we need the facts to answer your questions honestly and fully. As has been stated many times, we cannot accept that people that participated in lawful and legal action are singled out and victimised. We trust that you would support the position.
At this point in time it is our intention to seek your views in the form of an online ballot, which will run for a period of five days.
You will then either chose to accept the deal or give notice for further strike dates.
To repeat, our decision to recommend or reject this offer cannot be made at this point but only when discussions are concluded; the clarifications we require are received; and the treatment of those who supported the union is acceptable.
Tuesday is a few days away, please be patient and bear with us until then. We know how frustrated you are, as we can read your forum posts! But if there is a chance, no matter how slim, of reaching a fair settlement you would expect us to keep trying until it is proven to be impossible.
Last edited by TopBunk; 22nd Apr 2010 at 08:06.
BASSA
Which conveniently puts any strike beyond the General Election. Tues +_ 5 day ballot +7 days notice.
Unites goal all along, its links to Labour come before BA negotiations.
Unites goal all along, its links to Labour come before BA negotiations.
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Which conveniently puts any strike beyond the General Election. Tues +_ 5 day ballot +7 days notice.
Unites goal all along, its links to Labour come before BA negotiations.
Unites goal all along, its links to Labour come before BA negotiations.
The BA investment lifeline and indeed the future BA investment is all hinged on the company simplifying and rationalising its workforce and base costs.
Without these changes and abject simplification of costs BA will continue to lose money and investors and will wither and die.
Victory for Unite? Perhaps, they will still be pulling New Labours puppet and financial strings. Victory for the Cabin Crew? Nope, any future employer who sees Ex BA Cabin Crew would quite rightly run a mile after this mess.
Your vote, your future.
Seems familiar.
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Didn't WW say "I will never reinstate staff travel". When does he move onto TOPCO?
Guess the legal route will have to be pursued if the legal eagles think there is a strong case.
Guess the legal route will have to be pursued if the legal eagles think there is a strong case.
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Didn't WW say "I will never reinstate staff travel". When does he move onto TOPCO?
The other compromise which is being banded around is along the lines of staff travel being given back with a date of joining say June 1st 2010. I'm not sure either would be acceptable to the BASSA diehards, but the rest of the moderates may well go for it. Not sure the LAX commuter would be impressed with either.
Guess the legal route will have to be pursued if the legal eagles think there is a strong case.
Pornpants1
You are correct. If ST was made contractual the Taxman might be able to tax it as Benefit in Kind, valued on the full fare/class of the ST ticket!
Not a good idea, so the Unions were happy to keep it as a 'perk'.
Not a good idea, so the Unions were happy to keep it as a 'perk'.
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If I had been on strike I honestly wouldn't pin my hopes on a new CEO giving ST back. Why on earth would he/she do this? It would simply open the door to more industrial unrest - IMHO far better to leave a permanent reminder to everyone else that striking has consequences so you'd better not do it.
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Because removing a benefit for taking part of a legal industrial action is discriminatory and punishment. That's why ST should be reinstated.
Having a sister for a solicitor,and a friend who is a barrister I am well aware the layman will most of the time interpret the law incorrectly.(myself included)
There are principals that the law hangs its hat upon, but some are more important than others. Just look at the injunction at xmas, every BASSA supporter I know told me it was a perfectly legal ballot, what happened? (rhetorical)
Look at the injunction over imposition.........Ditto
I feel deeply sad for cabin crew whom put their trust in BASSA only to see them fail to deliver their promise.
If this gets put into the court system it will drag and drag. BA win, UNITE appeal or visa versa, same again next round, then off to the high court for more. How many commuters can wait up to 3 years for a legal ruling? and do UNITE have the will and the deep pockets to fund it?
I wish all those going down the road of "crew defense" but I have never met a law firm yet who won't turn your money down when you ask for an opinion.
Last edited by Pornpants1; 23rd Apr 2010 at 05:50.
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Pornpants1 - the "CD" idea is great until you take your employer to court, lose, and COLLECTIVELY end up liable for costs. The "Collective" (as in, those who have signed up for same) will end up splitting the costs between them, with no financial backstop. Where does that end? If they thought having no staff travel was expensive, think about having your house, car, etc taken from you to pay for what you owe. Not a route to be gone down unless you have very, very, very deep pockets.
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At some point things will have to be sorted out. We can't go on like this for ever. The abysmal management/staff relationship at BA is counter productive and destructive to all concerned.
I believe we will get ST back at some point. It will probably be used as a negotiating tool. And if it isn't well I knew exactly what I was going to lose when I went on strike so I am happy not to get it back.
Will BA get the best out of as an employee? Never.
I believe we will get ST back at some point. It will probably be used as a negotiating tool. And if it isn't well I knew exactly what I was going to lose when I went on strike so I am happy not to get it back.
Will BA get the best out of as an employee? Never.
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The problem is Ozzie that BA are starting to introduce performance management for crew. Newfleet will be first then it will be rolled out into old fleet. Crew will no longer be able to come along just for the ride aan the pay cheque. Everyone will be assessed, and those who aren't up to scratch will be performance managed out of the company. BA may not get the best out of you but you don't want to be among the bottom 10% when the new regime is in place.
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Hand Solo I hear what your saying. I honestly think its going to take years for them to get to the point where they (BA) want to be at in terms of managing crew.
By that time I would have been gone. I just really hope this all gets resolved. Its heart breaking to see how some crew are really stressing out about things.
By that time I would have been gone. I just really hope this all gets resolved. Its heart breaking to see how some crew are really stressing out about things.
MissM
I would have thought there is no chance of WW incuding reinstatement of ST in the present negotiations. His loyalty will be to the staff who worked through IA to keep BA running for its customers. He will want to keep them onside in the event of future disruption.
The assumption is that with 70% or so of crew reporting in any future IA, BA will be able to fly all its booked pax by the use of the volunteer c/c etc. and judicial combining of flights.
Over 60% turned up for work last time so not a good position for BASSA to bargain from.
The assumption is that with 70% or so of crew reporting in any future IA, BA will be able to fly all its booked pax by the use of the volunteer c/c etc. and judicial combining of flights.
Over 60% turned up for work last time so not a good position for BASSA to bargain from.
Last edited by cessnapete; 23rd Apr 2010 at 10:03.
cessnapete,
Totally agree that WW must not reinstate ST to those that chose to go on strike - and possibly put the rest of us out of work.
WW most certainly owes it to all of us who 'went the extra mile' to keep the company running. As time has gone on more and more vcc have been trained up, with an increasingly large number being trained on the 744 this time. If bassa decide to continue with their political game I am certain the WW will play his own game - hopefully right to the endgame this time.
Performance management for crew is LONG overdue. Most other departments have had it for years and for pilots it is a part of life. We have all seen loads of cc who cannot be bothered and are surly, miserable and lazy - and that is before they get near a passenger!!!
This situation cannot go on for ever. I for one am very surprised at how calmly WW & the LT have conducted matters. However, if bassa continue to prevaricate and continually say no - I hope that WW goes nuclear and uses every legal instrument he can to sort bassa out.
bassa have caused untold harm to the whole TU movement in their complete intranigence. Well seeing that they are now marginalised and that BA are dealing directly with unite.
Totally agree that WW must not reinstate ST to those that chose to go on strike - and possibly put the rest of us out of work.
WW most certainly owes it to all of us who 'went the extra mile' to keep the company running. As time has gone on more and more vcc have been trained up, with an increasingly large number being trained on the 744 this time. If bassa decide to continue with their political game I am certain the WW will play his own game - hopefully right to the endgame this time.
Performance management for crew is LONG overdue. Most other departments have had it for years and for pilots it is a part of life. We have all seen loads of cc who cannot be bothered and are surly, miserable and lazy - and that is before they get near a passenger!!!
This situation cannot go on for ever. I for one am very surprised at how calmly WW & the LT have conducted matters. However, if bassa continue to prevaricate and continually say no - I hope that WW goes nuclear and uses every legal instrument he can to sort bassa out.
bassa have caused untold harm to the whole TU movement in their complete intranigence. Well seeing that they are now marginalised and that BA are dealing directly with unite.
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Restrictive old style detailed contracts of employment which can be fought over for evermore line by line , Somme style, should be a thing of the past. They provide fuel for ongoing discontent and the undermining of people's enjoyment of the job. They are meat and drink to union activists to whom quiet enjoyment of the job and life are a threat.
The basic contact should be along the lines of:
-You are to work for the company employed at the agreed salary.
-Your hours and rosters will be in accordance with CAA regulations.
- You will report for work punctually, do the job as defined by the company with the resources you are given and you will do it cheerfully.
- All other legal requirements of employer and employee are in accordance with UK employment law.
That's it. No detailed job descriptions, manning levels etc. All the rest is non contractural. It is a formula already used in newer businesses and startup airlines It gives clarity, is simple and flexible.
The basic contact should be along the lines of:
-You are to work for the company employed at the agreed salary.
-Your hours and rosters will be in accordance with CAA regulations.
- You will report for work punctually, do the job as defined by the company with the resources you are given and you will do it cheerfully.
- All other legal requirements of employer and employee are in accordance with UK employment law.
That's it. No detailed job descriptions, manning levels etc. All the rest is non contractural. It is a formula already used in newer businesses and startup airlines It gives clarity, is simple and flexible.
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Nobody told me that it's a punishment to remove a company benefit for withdrawing one's labour. It doesn't take a degree in law to understand that it's discriminatory and wrong.
Over 60% of crew turned up for duty during the strike yet all those cancellations. It doesn't make sense and usually when something doesn't make sense it's because it's not true.
Why should WW owe anything to strikebreakers? I don't believe that breaking a strike is anything to be rewarded for. It's nothing but a very disgusting behavior that is not acceptable but I should thought that all of those ground staff and pilots enjoyed their little time at the trolley. If you had all that time to be away from your regular job it must be a sign that sometimes is superfluous.
Over 60% of crew turned up for duty during the strike yet all those cancellations. It doesn't make sense and usually when something doesn't make sense it's because it's not true.
Why should WW owe anything to strikebreakers? I don't believe that breaking a strike is anything to be rewarded for. It's nothing but a very disgusting behavior that is not acceptable but I should thought that all of those ground staff and pilots enjoyed their little time at the trolley. If you had all that time to be away from your regular job it must be a sign that sometimes is superfluous.
MissM
He owes everything to the staff who worked during the strikes, those who kept some of the operation intact for our CUSTOMERS.
BA did not know in the first couple of strikes, the amount of cc who would defy BASSA and turn up for work, hence the large number of planned cancellations.
ln the event approx 60% who were rostered for trips (cancelled or not) on the IA days, reported for work.
One would expect even more next time. Only 70% are needed together with volunteers to fly all booked pax, there would be some consolidation ie cancellations of trips but all pax carried.
The ongoing extra flights for stranded pax crewed mainly by volunteers, shows how well BA are prepared for potential further IA disruption.
BA did not know in the first couple of strikes, the amount of cc who would defy BASSA and turn up for work, hence the large number of planned cancellations.
ln the event approx 60% who were rostered for trips (cancelled or not) on the IA days, reported for work.
One would expect even more next time. Only 70% are needed together with volunteers to fly all booked pax, there would be some consolidation ie cancellations of trips but all pax carried.
The ongoing extra flights for stranded pax crewed mainly by volunteers, shows how well BA are prepared for potential further IA disruption.
Last edited by cessnapete; 23rd Apr 2010 at 13:57.
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Miss M quoted
"I don't believe that breaking a strike is anything to be rewarded for. It's nothing but a very disgusting behavior that is not acceptable".
All those crew that either went to work because they dont agree with the union or those that are not a part of the Bassa movment, also have a choice and choose to work and not strike, this is a human right and NOT disgusting behavior.
You post certainly has the kind of builling undertone the company states is not acceptable.
"I don't believe that breaking a strike is anything to be rewarded for. It's nothing but a very disgusting behavior that is not acceptable".
All those crew that either went to work because they dont agree with the union or those that are not a part of the Bassa movment, also have a choice and choose to work and not strike, this is a human right and NOT disgusting behavior.
You post certainly has the kind of builling undertone the company states is not acceptable.