British Airways vs. BASSA (Airline Staff Only)

[ranger07]

Willie must be further motivated with the support from the staff. I have spoken to colleagues in other departments, and, not only do they angrily condemn the strike, but they are actually saying that these strikers should never be allowed to return.

[Hand Solo]

Originally Posted by Eddy

Proud and happy to be backing BA, but if I got on a flight and found a VCC of any kind - ground staff or pilot - working up as Purser or CSD, I would be telling Ops that I'd like to offload myself.

I don't think that would be a very wise course of action. You'd be likely to find yourself permanently offloaded for taking unofficial industrial action.

[Juan Tugoh]

Proud and happy to be backing BA, but if I got on a flight and found a VCC of any kind - ground staff or pilot - working up as Purser or CSD, I would be telling Ops that I'd like to offload myself.

Eddy, that could be a very dangerous thing to do as BA have deemed those VCC acting as SCCM to be qualified to do so. Offloading yourself would probably be deemed as IA, and you may well find yourself treated as a striker. I don't mean that to be threatening rather that you would need to think long and hard about what you were doing and how the company may view it. As someone who has made the choice not to strike it would be silly to end up with the same sanctions taken against you as a striker because you now do not trust BA's training to be sufficient and competant.

[Litebulbs]

Originally Posted by IYCSWICSWICW

No! I suspect. It's because the Unions realise that they have had their collective arses kicked with regard to the 'business' argument. They are now whipping up a storm re 'perks' because that is all that is left for them to 'fight' over.

GF

It is not a storm of perks (if it was my post you are referring to). It is about no detriment due to protected collective action.

[Chesh01]

They think its all over!

Read the recent posts and for us BA backers there does seem to be a strong mood of confidence that BASSA are losing this contest.

CAREFUL.....BASSA's resolve appears strong or at least entrenched whilst BA are still leasing planes and offering overtime on a reduced schedule. This tells me there are still alot of crew not coming to work, so before we pop the champagne we do have to remember that the best solution is a negotiated one as opposed to this costly process with only speculation on how it will end.
There are alot of good people who chose the wrong side in this affair and I would rather forgive them than fire them. I back Willie's statergy with BASSA but lets get a conclusion before we claim victory.

I do feel strongly that the BASSA must defend the suspended crew through the individuel hearings not the ballot papers or media.

[Rover90]

Litebulbs
I am merely suggesting that any challenge to the removal of staff travel concessions to strikers would ultimately fail under current UK law after appeal processes etc and would probably find more traction in the European Courts and a successful outcome achieved.

If you are prepared to invest 3-4 years and some serious cash then away you go.

[Eddy]

You misunderstand me, Juan Tugoh and Hand Solo.

I have no problem with the training these people have been given. I am sure they are perfectly capable of taking a plane out in charge.

My issue would be that the company didn't see fit to train existing crew to work in the role of purser or CSD instead and give those 'regular' crew who have chosen to "Back BA" so they could gain some experience.

It might be a foolish move on my part, but it's a move I'd feel compelled to make.

I go in to work to do just that - work - and with only this exception, during the strike period, I'll take whatever the company throws at me to ensure our customers get where they want to be.

[Litebulbs]

Originally Posted by Rover90

Litebulbs
I am merely suggesting that any challenge to the removal of staff travel concessions to strikers would ultimately fail under current UK law after appeal processes etc and would probably find more traction in the European Courts and a successful outcome achieved.

If you are prepared to invest 3-4 years and some serious cash then away you go.

Why do you feel that it would fail in UK law? Do you believe that a business can just remove a benefit to one employee in a group, but not another. It is as arbitrary as removing it from blond people, because you just don't like blonds.

[Eddy]

Originally Posted by Litebulbs

Why do you feel that it would fail in UK law? Do you believe that a business can just remove a benefit to one employee in a group, but not another. It is as arbitrary as removing it from blond people, because you just don't like blonds.

If someone misbehaves on staff travel, they are at risk of having staff travel removed.... Why is breach of contract any different?

(devil's advocate only : I don't think removing staff travel is entirely fair)

[Litebulbs]

Originally Posted by Eddy

If someone misbehaves on staff travel, they are at risk of having staff travel removed.... Why is breach of contract any different?

(devil's advocate only : I don't think removing staff travel is entirely fair)

Not at all and it is a strong point. It is how you weigh up breach, against this -

As well as the right not to be dismissed on grounds relating to union membership or activities (TULRCA 1992, ss.152 and 153 and see Trade union matters/unfair dismissal ) a worker has a separate right "not to be subjected to any detriment as an individual by any act, or any deliberate failure to act, by his employer if the act or failure takes place" in certain union related situations - ie a right not to be victimised or discriminated against (TULRCA 1992 s.146 as amended by Employment Relations Act 1999 sch.2 and by Employment Relations Act 2004 ss.30 and 31).

And this -

Preparation for and participation in unofficial industrial action is clearly not participation in trade union activity. However, preparation for and participation in official industrial action is normally participation in trade union activity.

[ekwhistleblower]

You can tell from the name I am an outsider that will benefit every time BASSA decide to go on strike.

BASSA grow up. Every time I see the negotiating team on the telly it makes me think of the miners in the seventies. I do however notice that union negotiators seem to have much nicer sun tans nowadays. When this is all done and dusted, things will not have improved for the crew and the young ladies and gents will be asking themselves how they got dragged into it. It happens every time trivial factors get linked to ideals.

When it all goes to crap, the cabin crew will be looking at each other asking how they got into the position they are now in with not a union negotiator in sight. Lets look at one of the last arguments of this kind, pilots this time:

The Belgian Cockpit Association (BCA), which represents the airline’s 1,100 pilots, called on its members to take industrial action because it did not think the company had enough funds to implement the strategy.

Sabena’s chief executive, Christoph Müller, warned the BCA that the strike could jeopardise the airline’s survival. “Any destructive action at this point would kill Sabena,” he told Belgian television.

Müller has previously said that the carrier would go under by the end of the year unless the restructuring plan was adopted.

So what happened? Nope the management weren't lying, Sabena died and the Union Negotiators topped up their tans.

Good luck to all the hard working loyal staff but sadly as the precipice approaches and when the company fails you will only have your striking colleagues to blame for following this man like a lemming.

[ChicoG]

We ask him to reconsider and to mend the deep divisions that are being created and get us back to being “the worlds favourite airline” with the world’s best crew.

After so many personal insults, Holley now "asks" Willie Walsh to "reconsider".

Rich!

Perhaps what the clueless Holley doesn't understand is that there are no "deep divisions", there is only one "yawning chasm" - between just about everyone and and a minority of vociferous, militant, badly led BASSA lemmings.

Most of the stakeholders would like to see that yawning chasm removed. With dynamite, for example.

BA have just announced they expect 70% of Long Haul and 55% of Short Haul to operate during the next strike. The numbers keep rising.

[whatdoesthisbuttondo]

How many flights are BA having to sub charter?

Why is WW still prolonging this hugely damaging industrial action? Is it just to teach the strikers a lesson before he heads off into the sunset with a massive payout?

He is in charge of a company making record losses year after year, isn't it time he actually tries to sort it out rather than playing big man to his fans in the office?

What's next? Cull the office numbers for the Iberia merger. Actually try to sort out the pension problem. Wind up the final salary pension scheme for current members like most other FTSE 100 companies have done?

Perhaps all the WW fans in here won't be crowing so much in a few months when it's them that are expected to adopt modern working practice in line with the rest of the industry.

[essessdeedee]

it is Mr Walsh who is crusading no return of a benefit to striking crew

I think you'll find that the rest of his management team fully support this position.

[freddydog]

Perhaps all the WW fans in here won't be crowing so much in a few months when it's them that are expected to adopt modern working practice in line with the rest of the industry.

In Engineering its called " The Single Modern Agreement " Signed up to in June 2009. To Help BA, and help safegaurd all our jobs. Why Wont You ?

[essessdeedee]

Eddy

but if I got on a flight and found a VCC of any kind - ground staff or pilot - working up as Purser or CSD, I would be telling Ops that I'd like to offload myself

Ask around...... you will find that VCC's working as pursers or CSD's will have been specifically trained for that role and a great numbers of them are former CSD's and pursers and probably have been such for longer that you have been flying.

[Wirbelsturm]

He is in charge of a company making record losses year after year, isn't it time he actually tries to sort it out rather than playing big man to his fans in the office?

Only the last two years, the worst recession in aviation history. Prior to that BA has always made a profit. Sadly with the outdated working practices the running costs were also very high. If BA is to compete into the future the ticket revenue will be down therefore the costs MUST be reduced.

What's next? Cull the office numbers for the Iberia merger. Actually try to sort out the pension problem. Wind up the final salary pension scheme for current members like most other FTSE 100 companies have done?

The entire idea of the merger between Iberia and BA is to reduce administration costs. So, yes. The pension is based upon the stock market investments. As almost half of the value of the stock markets across the world have been wiped the pension defecit has doubled. Simple maths. There is a soloution it just needs to be approved by the pensions regulator. So, yes. BA are desperately trying to retain the final salary scheme and also have a plan to continue it for those members that wish to. It does involve, however, the current members requiring to increase their contributions substansively . All new employees to BA join on a cash scheme BARP. So, no, no need.

Perhaps all the WW fans in here won't be crowing so much in a few months when it's them that are expected to adopt modern working practice in line with the rest of the industry.

Already done it. Sign off, at the moment, on a rolling month. Substansively lost about 8.5% per annum. Increased productivity allows the same amount of flights to be covered by a reduced number of staff allowing voluntary redundancys. Been workin damn hard for less money, but still working. So, already done.

[whatdoesthisbuttondo]

These massive savings "everyone else" has made has still left BA making 1 billion losses over 2 years and the biggest pensions black hole in history. Not all airlines are doing this badly are they?

Make no mistake, after this is over the pension is one of the next issues to be tackled, both the deficit and the cost of the final salary scheme. Transferring current final salary pension members to the newer cheaper scheme will save millions. Most other industries have done this.

I wonder if you will all be so happy to help BA then.

[MrBunker]

Except, as has already been pointed out to you, BA do not currently wish to close the final salary scheme to existing members. Indeed all sides have worked together to present a workable plan to the pensions regulator and this has been given broad agreement between the trades unions, the trustees and the airline so, your point has, thus far, no merit.

[whatdoesthisbuttondo]

Right, so you think BA will be one of the only FTSE 100 ish companies with a final salary pension scheme, one in deficit millions BUT they'll be quite happy to keep it open to current members. Just because it's expensive in the short term to close it down?

You obviously haven't looked around at other FTSE 100 FS schemes to see what's happened.