British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk VI
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I'm just waiting on the "the judge has been given a free First Class ticket" excuse from BASSA.
Do any of the 100% BASSA gang care to comment on the result? Or on the comments from Willie at the AEA that he expects the strike to go ahead... i.e. he expects you to vote yes and will let you go out on strike.. your yes vote is not going to get him to give in????
I am genuinely interested in your thoughts and feeling at the moment.....
CB
PS apparently a huge scream of joy went up at Waterside, just after 1030
Do any of the 100% BASSA gang care to comment on the result? Or on the comments from Willie at the AEA that he expects the strike to go ahead... i.e. he expects you to vote yes and will let you go out on strike.. your yes vote is not going to get him to give in????
I am genuinely interested in your thoughts and feeling at the moment.....
CB
PS apparently a huge scream of joy went up at Waterside, just after 1030
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Len McClusky's view of events...
Unite on High Court ruling
Unite assistant general secretary Len McCluskey, said: "The regrettable judgement makes absolutely no difference to the substance of our dispute with British Airways. We remain in negotiations with the company and hope that management will address the real concerns of cabin crew. Should they fail to do so industrial action remains a possibility."
Translated = "B0ll0cks!"
Unite on High Court ruling
Unite assistant general secretary Len McCluskey, said: "The regrettable judgement makes absolutely no difference to the substance of our dispute with British Airways. We remain in negotiations with the company and hope that management will address the real concerns of cabin crew. Should they fail to do so industrial action remains a possibility."
Translated = "B0ll0cks!"
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C & B #729
Actually, I think Unite's response is interesting. IA is now only "a possibility", which is a clear ratcheting down of the tone. Does this indicate talks with BA really are progressing well? Who knows. I suspect Unite is under extreme political pressure as much as anything else to resolve this dispute without a strike. The timing of the re-ballot means that any strike has to start in March, just as we move into the General Election campaign. I think you can safely assume Brown, and certainly Mandellson, don't want to be fighting an election against a backdrop of '70s style industrial relations rhetoric.
Has BA applied for its Court costs to be paid by Unite? The answer to that could offer some pointers as to whether or not peace is breaking out.
Has BA applied for its Court costs to be paid by Unite? The answer to that could offer some pointers as to whether or not peace is breaking out.
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Unite assistant general secretary Len McCluskey, said: "The regrettable judgement makes absolutely no difference to the substance of our dispute with British Airways. We remain in negotiations with the company and hope that management will address the real concerns of cabin crew. Should they fail to do so industrial action remains a possibility."
2. '... makes no difference to the substance of our dispute ...' What substance was that? Imposition of crewing levels, which has been declared legal? Or have I missed something else?
3. '... hope that management will address the real concerns of cabin crew ...' Which concerns are those? The real or imagined threat that BA might run the company, instead of BASSA?
I derive little joy from today's decision, since it seems clear that BASSA/Unite are still determined to impose their will on BA. I draw little relief from the use of 'possibly'. There will almost certainly be a YES vote, and both the company and the customers will suffer.
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Well the Unite union seems completely incapable of defending members' interests by negotiation in any sector, be it steel or cabin crew, and in incapable of defending their actions in court. The 1992 Act has been in existence 18 years (ref the steel dispute) - it is not a new arsenal of weapons against union, but a rubric through which they have to operate.
Furthermore, the whole lot of them seem incapable of debating the real issues and understanding points of view within the membership, as opposed to the negotiating standpoint that best raises the profile of wannabe politicians among the reps.
UNITE seems as much use as a stuffed Dodo - this week seems to have shown them up in every sector in which they operate.
BASSA - I can consult on your finances for a £1.4m fee. Any takers?
Furthermore, the whole lot of them seem incapable of debating the real issues and understanding points of view within the membership, as opposed to the negotiating standpoint that best raises the profile of wannabe politicians among the reps.
UNITE seems as much use as a stuffed Dodo - this week seems to have shown them up in every sector in which they operate.
BASSA - I can consult on your finances for a £1.4m fee. Any takers?
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On The Evening Standard Report of yes vote
I was bothered by the report in The Evening Standard regarding the result of the ballot, that being yes.
Whilst I don’t imagine anyone expects anything else someone’s view of the likely result is not the same as their advanced knowledge of it. So I sought the view of the people running the ballot, they responded thus: -
So the story was more guff from a "Union source" it would appear...
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23807280-cabin-crew-at-british-airways-back-strike-action-again.do
Whilst I don’t imagine anyone expects anything else someone’s view of the likely result is not the same as their advanced knowledge of it. So I sought the view of the people running the ballot, they responded thus: -
I have been forwarded your email from the Electoral Reform Society.
I can confirm we are overseeing the current industrial action ballot between Unite and British Airways, which closes on Monday.
I have read the article in question and can confirm that no figures/indications or results have been given to any union official or other person for that matter. The report will be going across once all the papers have been included.
Yours sincerely
**** *********
Section Manager
Electoral Reform Services
The Election Centre
I can confirm we are overseeing the current industrial action ballot between Unite and British Airways, which closes on Monday.
I have read the article in question and can confirm that no figures/indications or results have been given to any union official or other person for that matter. The report will be going across once all the papers have been included.
Yours sincerely
**** *********
Section Manager
Electoral Reform Services
The Election Centre
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23807280-cabin-crew-at-british-airways-back-strike-action-again.do
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Originally Posted by Crash_and_Burn
I missed the R5 interview. Can somone post a link when it's available please.
Guessing you will find it here when uploaded to iPlayer
Victoria Derbyshire 5 Live
I missed the R5 interview. Can somone post a link when it's available please.
Guessing you will find it here when uploaded to iPlayer
Victoria Derbyshire 5 Live
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Unite supported this action because it has the potential to other UK workers, a question to OH Parsons, (bassa solicitors), about costs if the judgement goes against Bassa was responded to with the answer, Unite are prepared to cover all costs.
Whilst this may be a victory for BA management today, in the long run it could have an impact upon other employees of other companies. In effect the words 'this forms part of your contract of employment' can now be ingnored by employers as desired. Close to home on this site is the BA pilots Scope agreement, (an equivilant to Cabin Crews Scheduling agreement). Whilst one judge has ruled that it legally binding, this victory now provides a current precedent for another judge to reconsider - should BA management wish to make changes to Pilots agreements.
I am not making idol threats or stirring trouble here, I'm illustrating that this judgement can now be used to justify other alterations to other workers agreements within the UK.
Whilst this may be a victory for BA management today, in the long run it could have an impact upon other employees of other companies. In effect the words 'this forms part of your contract of employment' can now be ingnored by employers as desired. Close to home on this site is the BA pilots Scope agreement, (an equivilant to Cabin Crews Scheduling agreement). Whilst one judge has ruled that it legally binding, this victory now provides a current precedent for another judge to reconsider - should BA management wish to make changes to Pilots agreements.
I am not making idol threats or stirring trouble here, I'm illustrating that this judgement can now be used to justify other alterations to other workers agreements within the UK.
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If anything, the court case result should encourage all unions and management to review contracts and confirm what is in black and white.
Not to do so, will end up costing unions and managements dear in the long run trying to establish what is and what isn't.
Not to do so, will end up costing unions and managements dear in the long run trying to establish what is and what isn't.
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PC767 - I'm not sure you can take such a broad brush approach to it, since many of these cases will hinge on small wording, which - if the union is sufficiently intelligent to negotiate - will be able to incorporate so as to protect themselves.
I don't believe for one minute that this impacts every worker in the UK at all, nor do I believe that any of the membership wish to see their subs used to support general, UK-worker-wide aspirational legal missions rather than the case in hand relating to the contract with BA relating to scheduling agreements.
That is the result of the judgement and away from Unite spin, its broader impact is rather limited in my opinion. Everything has the potential to impact everything else, but quantification of that risk - away from spin and hyperbole - is not a particular strength of the union in question.
Were you aware, or do you even want to be funding an organisation that has some militant UK-wide mission, or one that is closely guarding your future and your contract??
triple x - inappropriate username and immature comments. As junior crew who joined only in August 2005 from bmi, you should be well aware that much of the argument is being led by senior crew who are on a very different payscale from you and are taking far more of the pay budget that you will ever hope to see. With a partner at bmibaby per your earlier posts, you will be only too aware of what the true market rate of crew in the UK is...
We are here to have adult debates, not to score points off each other.
I don't believe for one minute that this impacts every worker in the UK at all, nor do I believe that any of the membership wish to see their subs used to support general, UK-worker-wide aspirational legal missions rather than the case in hand relating to the contract with BA relating to scheduling agreements.
That is the result of the judgement and away from Unite spin, its broader impact is rather limited in my opinion. Everything has the potential to impact everything else, but quantification of that risk - away from spin and hyperbole - is not a particular strength of the union in question.
Were you aware, or do you even want to be funding an organisation that has some militant UK-wide mission, or one that is closely guarding your future and your contract??
triple x - inappropriate username and immature comments. As junior crew who joined only in August 2005 from bmi, you should be well aware that much of the argument is being led by senior crew who are on a very different payscale from you and are taking far more of the pay budget that you will ever hope to see. With a partner at bmibaby per your earlier posts, you will be only too aware of what the true market rate of crew in the UK is...
We are here to have adult debates, not to score points off each other.
Last edited by Re-Heat; 19th Feb 2010 at 12:18.
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Re-Heat. I am not stating that every company will automatically change any agreement that does not suit them. However if a company chooses to do so and legal advice or a court case is sought, then the legal precedent which the company will cite is BA v Malone 2010.
I stated that there is the potential risk to agreements across the UK. The judgement is good for BA but not for employees in general.
I stated that there is the potential risk to agreements across the UK. The judgement is good for BA but not for employees in general.
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The judgement will help BA maintain the operating profit it achieved in the last quarter, which without the changes would probably have resulted in a bigger loss. A step in the right direction to keep BA afloat - good for all employees I would have thought?
As for agreements - as has always been the case if it is not in black and white in your contract - don't rely on it. Nothing in law has changed as a result of this judgement, it is a merely an interpretation of current law.
As for agreements - as has always been the case if it is not in black and white in your contract - don't rely on it. Nothing in law has changed as a result of this judgement, it is a merely an interpretation of current law.
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Matt,
Employees per se, not just employees in BA.
Keeping a company in profit and therefore protecting jobs is good, however there must be a balance of at all costs.
The wording in question was specific. 'This forms part of your contract of employment' Clearly it didn't. Often agreements are considered part of contracts. I'm not an expert on Scope, I have little knowledge of the actual agreement other than it exists, but this being a Pilots forum I believe it is relevant to use as an example. Do BA pilots consider Scope as part of their terms and conditions of employment? does the document state that it is? If not is there now consideration that despite previous rulings Scope could now be challenged by BA management? Please note I only cite this as a relevant example of what could change for UK workers.
Employees per se, not just employees in BA.
Keeping a company in profit and therefore protecting jobs is good, however there must be a balance of at all costs.
The wording in question was specific. 'This forms part of your contract of employment' Clearly it didn't. Often agreements are considered part of contracts. I'm not an expert on Scope, I have little knowledge of the actual agreement other than it exists, but this being a Pilots forum I believe it is relevant to use as an example. Do BA pilots consider Scope as part of their terms and conditions of employment? does the document state that it is? If not is there now consideration that despite previous rulings Scope could now be challenged by BA management? Please note I only cite this as a relevant example of what could change for UK workers.
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FYI
Reading the thread, just wanted to answer two points..
Not true for the main. I was there, and didnt hear more than a slight wave of conversation as the news spread. Most WTS workers dont glory in such defeats, just breath sighs of relief.
An extremely reliable source tells me that costs were not awarded, but BA have been given leave to appeal that decision. BA did not do so immediately and is currently deciding the best course of action in this regard.
PS apparently a huge scream of joy went up at Waterside, just after 1030
Has BA applied for its Court costs to be paid by Unite? The answer to that could offer some pointers as to whether or not peace is breaking out.
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PC767
The judge said:
"What I am reading is what it is: a negotiated fleet collective agreement apt to cover planning for and deployment of 11,500 employees; it is not the stuff of 11,500 individual contracts."
"What I am reading is what it is: a negotiated fleet collective agreement apt to cover planning for and deployment of 11,500 employees; it is not the stuff of 11,500 individual contracts."