British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk VI
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Originally Posted by sussex2 
Actually, Willie Walsh has been careful to praise cabin crew. This is from his email to staff yesterday: "At the outset, let me stress that our cabin crew are extremely professional, highly skilled and deserve everyone’s respect."
BA senior management have done wrong in this dispute is to attempt to demonise all cabin crew
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You train dogs, not humans
A training course will allow you to do things safely, experience allows you to do them well.
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Ok Willie now can't you just feel this silence is deafening with you unable to plan the charter of these jets along with the can I help you t-shirt brigade. I'm thinking that to reballot would be such a great move on our part just a few more months of this sounds perfect.
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Collective "truth".
Watersidewonker
The chasm that exists between CC and almost everybody else, regarding understanding the situation that they face is extreme.
Of course, denial plays its part, but IMHO the greater part is a collective need to believe in a certain world view. The two factors combine to leave them seriously deluded.
I feel very sorry for them and the pain they will endure when there is the inevitable awakening to another “truth”.
False “collective truth” is not new and I am reminded of a particularly large occurrence that ended in 1945 for a whole nation! I live in that country and the pain of the collective awakening continues until today.
The chasm that exists between CC and almost everybody else, regarding understanding the situation that they face is extreme.
Of course, denial plays its part, but IMHO the greater part is a collective need to believe in a certain world view. The two factors combine to leave them seriously deluded.
I feel very sorry for them and the pain they will endure when there is the inevitable awakening to another “truth”.
False “collective truth” is not new and I am reminded of a particularly large occurrence that ended in 1945 for a whole nation! I live in that country and the pain of the collective awakening continues until today.
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WWW
I'm sure (not) that Unite will be happy to bankroll another ballot.
Remember they still have the legal costs of BA from the last round to potentially pay for (when/if BASSA/Unite decide to challenge the ruling), in addition to the announced £1,200,000 legal costs they incurred. I'm just sure they look forward to a further drain on their resources when BASSA are shouting their strong mandate from the hills, yet not exercising it.
Tell you what, £10 to Dreamflight if BASSA use this mandate and strike (and another £10 if they call another ballot). Put your money where your mouth is!
Naah, thought not ....
I'm sure (not) that Unite will be happy to bankroll another ballot.
Remember they still have the legal costs of BA from the last round to potentially pay for (when/if BASSA/Unite decide to challenge the ruling), in addition to the announced £1,200,000 legal costs they incurred. I'm just sure they look forward to a further drain on their resources when BASSA are shouting their strong mandate from the hills, yet not exercising it.
Tell you what, £10 to Dreamflight if BASSA use this mandate and strike (and another £10 if they call another ballot). Put your money where your mouth is!
Naah, thought not ....
Junior trash
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I'm thinking that to reballot would be such a great move on our part just a few more months of this sounds perfect.
Pretty obvious BASSA are on the back foot here, and this is the latest cunning plan. I see someone on BASSA that reckons holding back until the 2012 olympics is a good idea.... To continue the Blackadder theme, who exactly is using the family brain cell today?
Of course WW still has 90 day notice up his sleeve. Be awful if he did that the day after the notice ran out wouldnt it?
Plus theres the legal angle. I'm pretty sure BA could prove a new ballot after not taking industrial action was vexatious and therefore illegal.
Last edited by Hotel Mode; 4th Mar 2010 at 19:19.
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What is actually to be achieved by BASSA with more negotiation?
They failed to negotiated when everyone else did back before the deadline in 2009. Why should BA believe that they will enter meaningful negotiation now. They never,ever, have in the past. They have utterly failed in their initial shouting down of the BA requests and that smarts. They haven't got their way through the courts and now like petulant children they are blaming everyone and everything except their own incompetence.
Willie Walsh has a mandate from the shareholders and the other 65% of the company staff to keep the company running and not to fold taking with it huge investment but more importantly 35,000 jobs.
I just do not understand the point of the continuation of the Unite/BASSA stance on imposition when it has proven relatively painless and been proven to be tenable by the judiciary and not contractual.
Please remember that this dispute is purely about imposition. The discussion/action about 'New Fleet' and any other changes to the LHR terms is yet to come.
Kill off BASSA, they have lived in the past for too long and give all of the BA hardworking and professional crew correct representation that reflects the 21st century and not the 1980's.
They failed to negotiated when everyone else did back before the deadline in 2009. Why should BA believe that they will enter meaningful negotiation now. They never,ever, have in the past. They have utterly failed in their initial shouting down of the BA requests and that smarts. They haven't got their way through the courts and now like petulant children they are blaming everyone and everything except their own incompetence.
Willie Walsh has a mandate from the shareholders and the other 65% of the company staff to keep the company running and not to fold taking with it huge investment but more importantly 35,000 jobs.
I just do not understand the point of the continuation of the Unite/BASSA stance on imposition when it has proven relatively painless and been proven to be tenable by the judiciary and not contractual.
Please remember that this dispute is purely about imposition. The discussion/action about 'New Fleet' and any other changes to the LHR terms is yet to come.
Kill off BASSA, they have lived in the past for too long and give all of the BA hardworking and professional crew correct representation that reflects the 21st century and not the 1980's.
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Caribbean Boy
Spot on, (post 1891)!
While we're at it and in response to other comments today, he has every right to manage the business and also keep his staff and customers informed. Hence yesterdays briefing. A lot of customers and staff will be happy about his contingency, including me.
No doubt it's unpleasant reading for some.
Watersidewonker;
several colleagues have recently told me they have had enough of this and will not strike.
I think it's time to settle.
My views in response to posts today, not my employers or any other party.
While we're at it and in response to other comments today, he has every right to manage the business and also keep his staff and customers informed. Hence yesterdays briefing. A lot of customers and staff will be happy about his contingency, including me.
No doubt it's unpleasant reading for some.
Watersidewonker;
several colleagues have recently told me they have had enough of this and will not strike.
I think it's time to settle.
My views in response to posts today, not my employers or any other party.
Last edited by Clarified; 4th Mar 2010 at 19:26. Reason: rephrasing
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Given that the last ballot produced a reduced mandate compared to the previous one ( 80% vs 90+%), and given that many crew will have been frightened/woken-up by WW's speech on Wednesday, will Bassa want to run the risk of advertising their dwindling support?
How does Willie remove staff travel permanently, if in the event of a strike, a crewmember goes sick or prempts it by claiming a bad back due turbulence, and therefore not sick but cant come to work?
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Simple, he just sacks anyone he wants to, he does not need evidence of any wrong doing, he just says "don't come Monday". If that person then wants to claim for unfair dismissal then they are able too as their sacking probably would be illegal. The winner for Willie is that the compensation that BA may have to pay is capped to a maximum of approx £20,000 per staff member with significantly lesser sums going to anyone who has not worked for BA for very long. These sums of money would be less than having to 'pay' someone off to leave under VR, so people have to tread carefully.
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No dismissals, but maybe lock outs
I'm not expecting dismissals within the 12-week protection period as I don't see BA wanting to be accused of acting illegally. However, I won't be too surprised if cabin crew get locked out.
Suppose people strike for four days and then call in, only to be told to stay away - and they won't get paid. Why? Because although the strike may be over, the dispute isn't, so Unite could call further strikes. Striking cabin crew could find themselves receiving only £30 per day from Unite for some time.
Once the dispute is settled, Unite and strikers would be both poorer and wiser.
Suppose people strike for four days and then call in, only to be told to stay away - and they won't get paid. Why? Because although the strike may be over, the dispute isn't, so Unite could call further strikes. Striking cabin crew could find themselves receiving only £30 per day from Unite for some time.
Once the dispute is settled, Unite and strikers would be both poorer and wiser.
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Lockouts and pay.
General look at this scenario.
Obviously an employer will not pay someone they lock out after striking.
It's questionable whether a union will, officially the strike days are over.
So a striker, if locked out maybe getting no pay at all.
Anyone any examples of this?
Obviously an employer will not pay someone they lock out after striking.
It's questionable whether a union will, officially the strike days are over.
So a striker, if locked out maybe getting no pay at all.
Anyone any examples of this?
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I don't think Willie will sack or lock out. Up until now, he has done exactly what he has threatened he would do. I think strikers will lose staff travel permanently, and that will be his only sanction. That alone will be more than enough to ensure that it is only the real militants that actually strike on the day. Once Willie sees that pretty much everyone is coming into work, he will just continue to run his airline. BASSA and the militants can then just be ignored. And once they no longer have staff travel privileges, perhaps they will just decide the job is not worth it and quit? One can always hope.
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Am a little confused as to what this 'new' BASSA cost savings document will or can offer to BA ? WW has been pretty categoric the numbers on board are NOT changing, he has legal backing (albeit not appealed) so what are they looking at now ??
Also, good to see BASSA true to form, ignoring their members decision back some months ago, on the famouse show of hands, not to negotiate any more ?? Could an appeal be a play for time (if they go ahead) to avoid embarassing the Labour Party in run up to election ??
BASSA are (still as has been pointed out here for months) sadly on a hiding to nothing - WW has in his weaponry - unprecedented employee support (the like of which I haven't seen before), board, city, public, BALPA (neutral) support and a basket case financial performance this year whatever happens - and a once in a lifetime opportunity to finally shake off the shackles of civil service legacy.
BA needs to do this for a long term succesful future, investors expect - BASSA have really achieved nothing, sad really and even more sad that the viable alternative, CC89 have just sold out their original raison d'etre (now hopefully superseded by PCC). WW - this man is not for turning....
Also, good to see BASSA true to form, ignoring their members decision back some months ago, on the famouse show of hands, not to negotiate any more ?? Could an appeal be a play for time (if they go ahead) to avoid embarassing the Labour Party in run up to election ??
BASSA are (still as has been pointed out here for months) sadly on a hiding to nothing - WW has in his weaponry - unprecedented employee support (the like of which I haven't seen before), board, city, public, BALPA (neutral) support and a basket case financial performance this year whatever happens - and a once in a lifetime opportunity to finally shake off the shackles of civil service legacy.
BA needs to do this for a long term succesful future, investors expect - BASSA have really achieved nothing, sad really and even more sad that the viable alternative, CC89 have just sold out their original raison d'etre (now hopefully superseded by PCC). WW - this man is not for turning....
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Striking cabin crew could find themselves receiving only £30 per day from Unite for some time.
Would Unite be able to verify who actually went on strike and who did not. Do you have to appear on a picket line to qualify?
I have asked before but noone seems to know?