British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk VI
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Dave747436
That system would work okay for us as well. Last time the hourly rate was raised I voted in favour but it is slightly susceptible to currency fluctuations.
wascrew - if you had any idea how much Carmen cost us you'd know that buying a new bidding system would be a no no. I was on Mid-fleet and may I say that the PREFER bidding system was probably the undoing of mixed flying. If you were top group you could write your own roster, if you were bottom it was all standby and availables and in-between it was unstable as the gaps were difficult to fill in advance. BA found it quite costly.
Hi-flyer14
because it is based on an average of the entire rank in that fleets earnings! Not on individuals earnings. Ergo, say if I earned £3000 pa and you earned £1000pa then £2000 would be the offer so you would gain £1000 and I would lose the same regardless of what we worked.
You would have to ask them that! The tone of your posts implies you believe I am in some way linked to BASSA, may I suggest you are barking up the wrong tree!
A general point though - the monthly travel payment represents NO saving to BA and is not part of the cost-cutting. It is merely an idea from the Head of IFCE to mitigate the crews concern over the potential Trojan Horse that is 'New Fleet'. He has stated that he is not concerned one way or another, it was just a suggestion.
wascrew - if you had any idea how much Carmen cost us you'd know that buying a new bidding system would be a no no. I was on Mid-fleet and may I say that the PREFER bidding system was probably the undoing of mixed flying. If you were top group you could write your own roster, if you were bottom it was all standby and availables and in-between it was unstable as the gaps were difficult to fill in advance. BA found it quite costly.
Hi-flyer14
If it is taken from the 2008/9 achieved allowances, which were from a good year, how can they "be out of pocket?".
Also, you do not say what the Unite position is on rejecting the Monthly Travel Payment.
A general point though - the monthly travel payment represents NO saving to BA and is not part of the cost-cutting. It is merely an idea from the Head of IFCE to mitigate the crews concern over the potential Trojan Horse that is 'New Fleet'. He has stated that he is not concerned one way or another, it was just a suggestion.
Last edited by ottergirl; 8th Feb 2010 at 20:49.
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HiFlyer14,
I am getting a little confused here and may I apologise for it. Has BA made its savings already from IFCE with the reduction in headcount? If it has not, then is it through New Fleet that this is going to happen? If so, this could take years and years to take effect, as the new contract would only be introduced through natural wastage. If every existing crew member accepted the change in the way variable pay was paid, then where is the saving?
You rightly bring into question the democratic side of what is going on. BA do have an existing agreement for collective bargaining with Unite. As it stands, the majority of cabin crew are members and voted for the course of action that Unite are taking. A mass meeting in itself, opens up a whole other discussion on whether it is a relevant way of gauging opinion, when not on a shop floor, but they are Unites rules.
They also overwhelmingly voted for strike action. Unite cocked that up, but are trying to remedy that. But if the majority of the workforce again vote for industrial action, then that is democratic.
Many people on here have voiced opinion that if they wish to work, then they should be allowed to, regardless of the ballot result. What if only 40% vote to strike, should they be allowed to carry out protected industrial action, even though they are in the minority?
I am getting a little confused here and may I apologise for it. Has BA made its savings already from IFCE with the reduction in headcount? If it has not, then is it through New Fleet that this is going to happen? If so, this could take years and years to take effect, as the new contract would only be introduced through natural wastage. If every existing crew member accepted the change in the way variable pay was paid, then where is the saving?
You rightly bring into question the democratic side of what is going on. BA do have an existing agreement for collective bargaining with Unite. As it stands, the majority of cabin crew are members and voted for the course of action that Unite are taking. A mass meeting in itself, opens up a whole other discussion on whether it is a relevant way of gauging opinion, when not on a shop floor, but they are Unites rules.
They also overwhelmingly voted for strike action. Unite cocked that up, but are trying to remedy that. But if the majority of the workforce again vote for industrial action, then that is democratic.
Many people on here have voiced opinion that if they wish to work, then they should be allowed to, regardless of the ballot result. What if only 40% vote to strike, should they be allowed to carry out protected industrial action, even though they are in the minority?
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Litebulbs
While you are waiting for HiFlyers response I can answer some of that for you. Only part of the savings come from the reduction of crewing levels the rest is still subject to negotiation.
New Fleet saving comes from a lower starting salary, a single supervisor rank also on lower pay, more efficiency around working to scheme, and other random allowances that they won't generate. Its true to say that the savings made will be over time but BA is satisfied that it represents such a large saving that it is worth waiting for.
While you are waiting for HiFlyers response I can answer some of that for you. Only part of the savings come from the reduction of crewing levels the rest is still subject to negotiation.
New Fleet saving comes from a lower starting salary, a single supervisor rank also on lower pay, more efficiency around working to scheme, and other random allowances that they won't generate. Its true to say that the savings made will be over time but BA is satisfied that it represents such a large saving that it is worth waiting for.
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FMTP - We seem to be getting rather hung up here on a long day payment, which, in reality is not worth a whole helluva lot.
Fact - A 3 day trip will still be worth more than 3 x there and backs due to all the meal allowances it generates.
Fact - A double that triggers breakfast/lunch/dinner will still be worth more than an early MAN.
But the point is it's available for those who want it, and not for those who don't. So, for eg, Ottergirl you could stick with the current system and I could go for FMTP and everyone's happy. Why is that being rejected by Unite? And does it not go a long way to show that BA ARE trying to make us happy and that we do matter?
Litebulbs - I'm afraid I'm not privvy to the figures so I am not sure how much of the savings have been made due to HCR and how much in the future for New Fleet. You have however rightly pointed out that New Fleet could take years to take effect. Another reason why Unite should be negotiating about it now.
I have to pick up on your statement "Many people on here have voiced opinion that if they wish to work, then they should be allowed to, regardless of the ballot result".
It is not our opinion, it is our right under UK Employment Law. And we intend to exercise it.
I am BA cabin crew and this is my own viewpoint and not that of BA.
Fact - A 3 day trip will still be worth more than 3 x there and backs due to all the meal allowances it generates.
Fact - A double that triggers breakfast/lunch/dinner will still be worth more than an early MAN.
But the point is it's available for those who want it, and not for those who don't. So, for eg, Ottergirl you could stick with the current system and I could go for FMTP and everyone's happy. Why is that being rejected by Unite? And does it not go a long way to show that BA ARE trying to make us happy and that we do matter?
Litebulbs - I'm afraid I'm not privvy to the figures so I am not sure how much of the savings have been made due to HCR and how much in the future for New Fleet. You have however rightly pointed out that New Fleet could take years to take effect. Another reason why Unite should be negotiating about it now.
I have to pick up on your statement "Many people on here have voiced opinion that if they wish to work, then they should be allowed to, regardless of the ballot result".
It is not our opinion, it is our right under UK Employment Law. And we intend to exercise it.
I am BA cabin crew and this is my own viewpoint and not that of BA.
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Thanks Ottergirl for your answers.
Just to carry on the debate though, just say the new Boeing/Airbus superjet turns up, you would imagine New Fleet will crew it. It is the only way BA could capitalise on new contracts within say 10-15 years. As the new superjets turn up, the old smokers will go out to grass along with the crew on them, unless you sign to New Fleet and a reduction in T&C's.
Pure speculation, but I am just trying how BA get to save this money.
Just to carry on the debate though, just say the new Boeing/Airbus superjet turns up, you would imagine New Fleet will crew it. It is the only way BA could capitalise on new contracts within say 10-15 years. As the new superjets turn up, the old smokers will go out to grass along with the crew on them, unless you sign to New Fleet and a reduction in T&C's.
Pure speculation, but I am just trying how BA get to save this money.
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As you're not in Unite Hi-Flyer, I suggest you e-mail our esteemed leader and sign up for it! In theory, there is nothing to stop non-unionised crew negotiating their own package. Give it a try!
Litebulbs, I guess that is the trojan horse that everyone fears. Entirely speculation though. At this moment in time BA have no plans to recruit permanent crew; it may be that mostly New Fleet will be manned by temps.
Have to be up early for one of those LDP type flights so thats all from me now.
Litebulbs, I guess that is the trojan horse that everyone fears. Entirely speculation though. At this moment in time BA have no plans to recruit permanent crew; it may be that mostly New Fleet will be manned by temps.
Have to be up early for one of those LDP type flights so thats all from me now.
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As the new superjets turn up, the old smokers will go out to grass along with the crew on them, unless you sign to New Fleet and a reduction in T&C's.
OG - would that it were that easy. BA don't do individual negotiation, only collective. So we are all stuck with Unite and the decisions they make on our behalf, without facts, without negotiation, without discussion, without consulting the members. Perhaps someone should start a new.....oh!
I am BA cabin crew and the above represents my own viewpoint and not that of BA.
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Any news from the High Court today ???? More and more people are getting behind BASSA we are so ready to meet our new vol cabin crew well that's if they are getting any sleep and it's not the SEP manuals keeping them up at night. I tend to think many pilots,trm's,ground staff are doing this vol work as they are only looking to protect massive pension pots not thinking about morals. WW and BF along with many of the gang have not been seen to want a solution in this dispute the public will soon be made aware i'm told from a reliable contact. Do not under estimate the power of Unite and other unions on the sideline we have only just begun to start cranking up the handle.
waterside...
we are so ready to meet our new vol cabin crew well that's if they are getting any sleep and it's not the SEP manuals keeping them up at night
Last edited by wiggy; 8th Feb 2010 at 22:42.
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HiFlyer,
How will FMTP protect you, if you cannot transfer to the New Fleet, unless to accept a new contract? Obviously, if market rate plus 10% is more than you are on now, then fair enough. Do you know how many crew are old contract at the Golden Runways?
How will FMTP protect you, if you cannot transfer to the New Fleet, unless to accept a new contract? Obviously, if market rate plus 10% is more than you are on now, then fair enough. Do you know how many crew are old contract at the Golden Runways?
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MTP will protect mainline crew's savings from New Fleet when it is up and running and they start moving routes over - and you can be sure that the trips which pay the best - CPT, HKG, NRT and SIN - will be the first ones to go. That would decrease the salary a lot!
With the company's suggestion crew would in average get £750 a month on top of meal allowances and their basic salary - some crew still claiming they would be worse off with MTP. How many LR trips are they getting every month?
Still - some crew or BASSA wouldn't even accept the MTP if BA offered £5000 a month
With the company's suggestion crew would in average get £750 a month on top of meal allowances and their basic salary - some crew still claiming they would be worse off with MTP. How many LR trips are they getting every month?
Still - some crew or BASSA wouldn't even accept the MTP if BA offered £5000 a month
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Winston - you've hit the nail on the head. It honestly doesn't make a blind difference what's offered - the answer's no.
But regarding the comment that the good routes will go first, not necessarily. BA have said they will do an A,B,C transfer.
A - good B - medium C - bad (as in allowances)
So they will be transferred in that order to keep a balance on both fleets of mixed routes. That, of course, only applies if the Union negotiate it. If not, then BA may transfer whichever routes it feels like.
I am BA cabin crew and this is my own viewpoint and not that of BA.
But regarding the comment that the good routes will go first, not necessarily. BA have said they will do an A,B,C transfer.
A - good B - medium C - bad (as in allowances)
So they will be transferred in that order to keep a balance on both fleets of mixed routes. That, of course, only applies if the Union negotiate it. If not, then BA may transfer whichever routes it feels like.
I am BA cabin crew and this is my own viewpoint and not that of BA.
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Watersidewonker , I'm soooo pleased your ready to meet the volunteer cabin crew, your concern about volunteers losing sleep is just touching!!!
As for your mention about morals...it's, well.. laughable. They went out of the window a long time ago it seems - websites with links to porn, text messages being sent with peoples details.
As for your mention about morals...it's, well.. laughable. They went out of the window a long time ago it seems - websites with links to porn, text messages being sent with peoples details.
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HiFlyer14 - as you say - if BASSA negotiates - but looking at their past we all know what the answer will be. If it goes that far that crew will stay on their current allowance system and lose destination by destination - whom will BASSA blame? As always - their members!
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The strike ballot will define where BASSA are now. 75%+ yes after all of the company and media hype, means that it is the crew and crew alone that have made the statement. There will be no blaming of the BASSA reps at all.
I tend to think many pilots,trm's,ground staff are doing this vol work as they are only looking to protect massive pension pots not thinking about morals.
I work for another airline, not BA, but some of my friends are pilots at BA, and they are absolutely delighted to be going through the cabin crew training and supporting the airline through this farcical episode. Contrary to what you say, I think reasons of morals are EXACTLY the reason why they are volunteering, but judging by your comments I wouldn't expect you understand that. I wish the volunteers the best of luck. If I worked for BA, I would be doing exactly the same.
