British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk VI
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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Maybe what I am saying is that the skill-set one needs for cabin crew may not be the same skill-set that one needs to be a negotiator.
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If you want a kitchen fitted, get yourself a BASSA rep? 
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I have discovered a very useful trick to understand any Bassa correspondence just change Ba to Bassa and vice versa and you are half way there in understanding where the problem lies
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Nor do repeated sly references to management pay have any relevance; as , for example, Willlie's pay is well below average for a FTSE100 company.
I plead Not Guilty and I agree. I was only replying to Litebulbs post.
(Hopefully that will also be the verdict for BA!
)
Why do crew / Bassa not even discuss cost saving options. And the Travel Payment for example? By offering their "£150m" they have tacitly agreed the need to make the savings anyway. They must realise that eventually, one way or another, the cost savings will be found. Do they believe that they could get away scot free????
Sadly BASSA are not interested in talking about the Travel Payment which won't be on the table for long. Who will they blame then, have a guess please?!
I'm BA Cabin Crew and the above represent my personal views and not those of BA.
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And you have your lay reps, who as you say are probably better at serving tea and coffee than talking business. I say probably because it would appear a good few are off sick routinely.
Interesting that no one from BASSA or UNITE has denied or issued a statement regarding any of this. The silence is deafening.
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Ottergirl:
Do you honestly believe that? It's complete melodrama! BA are asking CC to help contribute to savings. They have tried negotiations but by all accounts, BASSA have stymied these and only offered fictional, temporary, solutions.
I assume it is BASSA rhetoric that makes CC believe that BA do not value them. From what I read into the situation this is not the case, far from it in fact.
However BA need to make savings and it is the turn of CC to contribute. The recent financial results do not mean that less savings have to be made, as suggested by some people.
The savings are needed for the long term viability and future of BA. This has nothing to do with how BA management feel about CC. Continuing to stick your head in the sand will only cause there to be an increase in likelihood that BA will start to think that CC are not worth the hassle - which will be a shame because there are undoubtably many (the majority) of CC who are an asset to BA.
Sporran, we don't think we are special! In fact, BA have made it abundantly clear that we don't matter at all anymore and thats ok!
I assume it is BASSA rhetoric that makes CC believe that BA do not value them. From what I read into the situation this is not the case, far from it in fact.
However BA need to make savings and it is the turn of CC to contribute. The recent financial results do not mean that less savings have to be made, as suggested by some people.
The savings are needed for the long term viability and future of BA. This has nothing to do with how BA management feel about CC. Continuing to stick your head in the sand will only cause there to be an increase in likelihood that BA will start to think that CC are not worth the hassle - which will be a shame because there are undoubtably many (the majority) of CC who are an asset to BA.
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I understand the court case decision will be made today
Has anyone any info on this?
This decision is crucial as to how things develop of course.
Has anyone any info on this?
This decision is crucial as to how things develop of course.
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Do you honestly believe that? It's complete melodrama!
You have professional negotiators
The Blu Riband - the travel payment is a non-starter as far as I am concerned. On Eurofleet it would reward those who bid to do as little as possible and disadvantage those who work the hardest. It would change the bidding profile and, to preserve it, we would have to introduce a fair-share element and this affects the satisfaction level. (Sorry if this is CC speak but Carmen is not easy to translate into plain english). Maybe that helps explains why it isn't popular though.
BA Crew but all thoughts my own.
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Lord Bracken
The final line on your link
should prove to you that rather than interesting updates, they are the musings and interpretation of a Pro strike person.
All to be taken with a liberal pinch of salt. The fact that the poster thinks that Mr Carr QC is making mistakes by 'pushing the point' goes to show that he (the poster) doesn't understand the way court cases are played out... 'played' being a very relevant word in court proceedings.
The final line on your link
I urge everyone that voting YES is paramount if you want your voice to be heard...
All to be taken with a liberal pinch of salt. The fact that the poster thinks that Mr Carr QC is making mistakes by 'pushing the point' goes to show that he (the poster) doesn't understand the way court cases are played out... 'played' being a very relevant word in court proceedings.
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Bad Reporting
A good example of bad reporting: -
Walsh to BA cabin crew: Strike will cost you dear | Cheapflights.co.uk
On reading this it appears to give the impression that BA issued the ballot paper complete with warning that you will be sacked for voting yes.
Also, I'm not sure that a ballot paper sent to 10,000 people can "emerge".
Walsh to BA cabin crew: Strike will cost you dear | Cheapflights.co.uk
On reading this it appears to give the impression that BA issued the ballot paper complete with warning that you will be sacked for voting yes.
Also, I'm not sure that a ballot paper sent to 10,000 people can "emerge".
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Satisfied PAX!!
As someone who works in the aviation industry but not for BA, I frequently fly to and from the UK using a variety of airlines. I am an Executive Club member and although I prefer to fly BA the flight scheduling doesn't always meet with my itineries.
This morning though, I was on the early BA flight out of LHR to LIS and I would like to thank the cabin crew onboard who I found to be friendly and welcoming and were never without a smile.
It is service like that that makes me want to fly with BA!!
However on the downside, with the ongoing threat of strike action I am looking at some flights I need to make in early March and I am debating who to book with just now. Do I risk booking with BA and then have to re-book later on (probably at a higher cost for a late booking) with another airline, or do I bite the bullet and just book with someone else now. I am not the only person thinking about this I'm sure, and whilst all this infighting goes on, BA will suffer more losses!!!
On a side issue please get rid of the muffins, the one this morning was just bad!! A bacon buttie would have gone down much better!!!
This morning though, I was on the early BA flight out of LHR to LIS and I would like to thank the cabin crew onboard who I found to be friendly and welcoming and were never without a smile.
It is service like that that makes me want to fly with BA!!However on the downside, with the ongoing threat of strike action I am looking at some flights I need to make in early March and I am debating who to book with just now. Do I risk booking with BA and then have to re-book later on (probably at a higher cost for a late booking) with another airline, or do I bite the bullet and just book with someone else now. I am not the only person thinking about this I'm sure, and whilst all this infighting goes on, BA will suffer more losses!!!
On a side issue please get rid of the muffins, the one this morning was just bad!! A bacon buttie would have gone down much better!!!
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The Blu Riband - the travel payment is a non-starter as far as I am concerned. On Eurofleet it would reward those who bid to do as little as possible and disadvantage those who work the hardest. It would change the bidding profile and, to preserve it, we would have to introduce a fair-share element and this affects the satisfaction level. (Sorry if this is CC speak but Carmen is not easy to translate into plain english). Maybe that helps explains why it isn't popular though.
a. It is to be fixed at 2008/9 rates which was the PROFIT year. So it will be fixed high.
b. It is a guarantee that routes will not just be given to New Fleet, because we will be paid that amount, regardless of which routes we do.
c. It is beneficial if you are on leave, SEP, etc and will stabilise the monthly income.
d. It does not include meal allowances, so there will still be reasons for EF crew to bid for certain destinations.
In addition, the EF bid system has all sorts of complexities and many people bid for timings, days off etc, with money only concerning a small minority. The EF bid system already incorporates a fairshare system - why else are there hundreds of swaps listed on the forum for the night DME?! In addition, the Monthly Travel Payment, could be a potential way forward for bringing in a bid system for WW which would then give WW more control over rosters.
There is nothing to lose from the Monthly Travel Payment, and everything to gain. It is Win-Win. If we don't take it now, we will lose it. Unite are simply costing us money by refusing to negotiate this.
What reasons have Unite given for not negotiating it? None. They simply refuse to talk about it. They have hung on to their allowance system like a dog with a bone for years. Now, even when a good offer like this comes up and hits them in the face, they simply cannot see it.
If anyone can quote a reason from Unite why we shouldn't take this, please post it here. To my knowledge, they have not given any presumably because they don't have one.
You state that "BA have made it abundantly clear that we don't matter". Well the Monthly Travel Payment is an indication that we do. The MTP won't have any benefit to BA (small cost I believe?) but yet they have OFFERED it to show exactly that they do understand our insecurities about New Fleet. It is given entirely to offset that.
This confusion is being put about by Unite because all that matters to them is MEMBERSHIP FEES. And that is being reduced considerably with one crew member off a plane.
I am a BA cabin crew member and this is my own viewpoint and not that of BA.
Last edited by HiFlyer14; 8th Feb 2010 at 12:57.
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Ottergirl,
You say no-one voted not to negotiate, but wasn't there in fact a wholly un-democratic 'show of hands' at one of the Sandown meetings where BASSA decided not to negotiate?
Also you mention that the monthly travel payment would change bidding patterns and reward those that bid to work less - well the first is irrelevant (so what if people bid for different trips, not everyone wants the same anyway). The second point is exactly the sort of thing that a responsible union should be bringing up in negotiations with the company, to ensure any such system was as fair as possible.
Instead of saying 'it won't work we don't want it', how about 'it could work if we did it like this...'
You say no-one voted not to negotiate, but wasn't there in fact a wholly un-democratic 'show of hands' at one of the Sandown meetings where BASSA decided not to negotiate?
Also you mention that the monthly travel payment would change bidding patterns and reward those that bid to work less - well the first is irrelevant (so what if people bid for different trips, not everyone wants the same anyway). The second point is exactly the sort of thing that a responsible union should be bringing up in negotiations with the company, to ensure any such system was as fair as possible.
Instead of saying 'it won't work we don't want it', how about 'it could work if we did it like this...'
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Fly12345, if it“s the same thread I“ve been reading, that“s not quite right. They feel harrassed by the nature of the latest “opportunity“. Personally, as I“ve said before, I wish it hadn“t been described as an “opportunity“, that it hadn“t been targeted using “Backing BA“ and that it hadn“t mentioned staff travel. But then I guess gloves are off!
I must admit, I am still very uneasy about the security of the “opportunity“ list. I“ve also got other concerns about how the company can guarantee anonimity if working during strike days as we will come into contact with so many other people who may have their own agendas, inside and outside BA, including possibly bogus passengers! I“m afraid I“m not as brave or as confident as some of you and that“s why I“m not taken by the view that the team mix will create something special onboard!
The above are my own personal views and not those of BA.
I must admit, I am still very uneasy about the security of the “opportunity“ list. I“ve also got other concerns about how the company can guarantee anonimity if working during strike days as we will come into contact with so many other people who may have their own agendas, inside and outside BA, including possibly bogus passengers! I“m afraid I“m not as brave or as confident as some of you and that“s why I“m not taken by the view that the team mix will create something special onboard!
The above are my own personal views and not those of BA.
Last edited by 24-06; 8th Feb 2010 at 16:55. Reason: Typos and emphasis
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Hi Flyer
In addition, the EF bid system has all sorts of complexities and many people bid for timings, days off etc, with money only concerning a small minority. The EF bid system already incorporates a fairshare system - why else are there hundreds of swaps listed on the forum for the night DME?!
The travel payment covers variable pay other than meal allowances and includes overtime and STR.
Our bidding system allows people to bid for early there and backs, late there and backs, domestics only, LCA and ATH 3 day trips. You could bid (if you wanted to be home for the school run, aerobics class, etc) for a roster comprising mainly these and never work over an 8 hour day or more than 2 sectors. For this group of people, and they are many, when they add up their variable pay will think the monthly travel payment represents a good deal.
Meanwhile, the people who bid to work 3 day trips (for whatever reason), with STR and long days will often work over 10 hour days. When they compare their variable pay to the monthly travel payment will find they are out of pocket, as the reality is that this group rightly earn considerably more than the other.
Yet both groups will earn the same amount of monthly travel pay!
We used to have a fair-share element in Carmen for CAT payments but it meant that people who did not want night-stops were getting them regardless of what they bid for so we had to remove it. The only fair share that is applied relates to Band 4 and even those are popular with crew looking to maximise earnings. What you are proposing means that the very lifestyle choice that Carmen offers, and which the Eurofleet crew value, will be reduced considerably. Band 4 flights will be even less popular if there is no incentive to spend 12 hours on the plane.
I understand it could be a good thing on WW because you do not have such a variation of working lifestyles but you have to believe me when I tell you that we have done the Maths and it doesn't add up on Eurofleet!