British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk V

[Juan Tugoh]

What is BASSAs endgame?

A serious question, which reading through the various BASSA letters and postings on this mammoth series of threads eludes me.

Where do BASSA expect to be in 6 months time?

If they win the court case in February, they will have proven that the changes made were contractual and that BA should not have imposed them without negotiation. So what happens next? Where will the crew come from to re-crew to pre-imposition levels? New Fleet? BA could certainly start NF on selected routes fairly quickly, recruitment would be a quick and easy business given the levels of newly unemployed CC. Even at "only" market rate + 10% they would, it is likely, be getting a payrise from their previous jobs. How this helps BASSA I'm not sure.

The judge may order that BA go back to the pre-imposition staffing levels, she may even order that the working down payments should be made for the period of imposition, similarly she may order that as this was a disputed case no "compensation" is due. She may order nothing as to the working down payments and give BASSA another court case to fight as it is doubtful BA will pay them unilaterally.

But at the end of this there is still another ballot in the offing. If BASSA win their case over imposition and the imposition is ruled against will this invalidate the ballot?

Whatever the outcome it seems that the aim is to force BA back to the negotiating table - but only to negotiate on what BASSA wants to talk about. So a year on and we will be back at square one. Will the huge cost that BASSA went to with balloting and court cases and the public vilification that the CC went through just be to force BA back to a table that they were happy to be at 12 months ago?

[Hotel Mode]

Where do BASSA expect to be in 6 months time?

The BASSA leadership wants to be back in their office under the stairs with some First class food and a movie. Thats all this is about.

[Glamgirl]

Well, just to throw another "spanner" in the works, it seems that the LT are using all means available to get rid of "troublemakers". According to popular belief/rumour, around 20 CSDs have been suspended pending investigation. I don't actually know what they're supposedly (and allegedly) suspended for, but I think at least some of them have made PAs telling the passengers that a slow service is due to imposition. To do such an announcement is looking for trouble, to be honest.

I'm sure I've said it before, but crew have got to be careful. Do your job, basically. Properly. With a smile (or several). The LT won't need much encouragement to suspend cc at the moment. Is it fair? That's up to the investigation to deal with, as we don't know the facts.

I'm also interested in the answer to Juan T's question.

Gg

[HiFlyer14]

Good Morning Lurker - still waiting for confirmation of my new pay deal details please.

Desertia - as always a very interesting POV. In fact, BA have done exactly that sort of thing over a year ago. Certain groups were given a choice: Redundancy or a new contract with no guarantees what that might entail.

I know I am caught up in the net. However, I am actually now waiting for the day that BA does something like this. I will take the rough with the smooth, and I hope that BA has recognised that some amongst this melee are actually very loyal, dedicated crew, doing everything we possibly can to speak out against this self-destructive Union.

It will undoubtedly be tough. But it will also be amusing to watch the so called "BASSA 100%" suddenly become "BASSA 0%".

This now has to stop, one way or another. For the sake of our customers, our shareholders, our employees and all our sanity.

I am BA crew and the above is my own point of view, and not that of BA.

[deltahotel]

First time for me on the CC forum. All the debate above is very interesting for an outsider, but doesn't change some facts:

1. CC/BASSA/whatever lost the PR war with a planned 12 day strike over xmas.

2. The farepayers as a group are much less willing to buy flights from BA. I haven't flown BA for ages (many reasons), but am planning a trip to Oz with a bunch of friends and family this year for daughter's wedding. Guess which airline is way down the bottom of the list?

I don't know how this is all going to pan out, but I do know that BA's credibility with the people who buy the tickets is seriously battered and bruised.

[Albert Salmon]

A Lurker #1120

Prior to the Christmas break we actually engaged in a debate - ie the two sides offered contrary views - people like myself no longer post here as this has become a vicious forum which is open to all and sundry to post on - the debate has unfortunately ended

I have news for you, A Lurker:

During (and after) the Christmas break we actually continued that debate. Opinions 'pro' and 'con' were tendered.

This "vicious forum which is open to all and sundry to post on" is a manifestation of an important tenet of democracy, i.e. free speech.

You clearly would prefer that only one point of view be represented on this thread: yours.

Sorry, A Lurker, but this is not the BASSA message board, nor is it CF. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

Meanwhile, the rest of us will continue to post here - subject, of course, to the rules of the web site.

Goodbye, A Lurker.

[Two-Tone-Blue]

Originally Posted by A Lurker, #1120

Unfortunately you are wrong in what you say - the pro-BASSA posts have dropped on this forum due to the sustained and unmoderated abuse that has been allowed to be posted on here.

Prior to the Christmas break we actually engaged in a debate - ie the two sides offered contrary views - people like myself no longer post here as this has become a vicious forum which is open to all and sundry to post on - the debate has unfortunately ended

I say, that's a bit strong! By "abuse", do you mean people constantly disagreeing with your views? The Thread is certainly moderated - I've had at least one post deleted As to it being a "vicious forum", a bit of reading back will reveal some fairly vicious comments from BASSA supporters.

Please continue to contribute your erudite views - it would be a shame if this thread ended up as a one-sided discussion [like the negotiations between BA and BASA/Unite].

Regards,

"Sundry Customer"

Edit = Good morning, Mr Salmon!

[Albert Salmon]

Overstress #1125

A BALPA rep tells me the same as BigBrutha re resignations.

Yes, and my wife's hairdresser's cousin's neighbour's son's teacher told me that Lizanne HoMalone had porridge for breakfast yesterday.

Overstress, the only news of the sort you are quoting must be backed up by a documentary reference, such as a URL leading to the source.

Not rumours, not BASSA bullsh1t.

[HiFlyer14]

Lurker - have you posted the same thing on CF and BASSA forums about the "abuse and vicious posts"? What about the recent poster who posted on there that it is ridiculous to strike in the current climate?

Have you read the abuse they got? Have you seen the ridicule that they "must be pilots/married to pilots/etc". Oh, yes and have you seen them being called "idiots". Now please show me where, on here, the same level of "vicious posts and abuse" exists.

Oh, yes, and please can I have my new pay deal details please.

I am BA crew and the above is my own view and not that of BA.

[Carnage Matey!]

@Albert Salmon - would it convince you if I said that on BALPAs private forum a rep has confirmed (under his own name, as all posts are over there), that there has been no change to membership levels beyond the normal ebb and flow?

[GearUp CheerUp]

Might I ask a question of A Lurker, Fume Event or Watersidewonker (any or all of you, feel free to answer).

Now that La La Malone has written in her latest rambling,

Was it a little unnerving? Of course it was, but the point of the action was not to be on strike for twelve days, but to create a situation big enough that it could not be ignored and for negotiation to be recognised as the only sensible way forward.

do you think that another ballot for a strike will be taken:

A - More seriously

or

B - Less seriously

by BA management?

Think hard before you answer. Guessing is allowed and there are no negative marks for the wrong answer.

[overstress]

Mr Salmon: You do not think I am worthy of a reply in a 'PPRuNe context'?

You again refute info from the horses' mouth, preferring proof from a website which doesn't exist?

At some point it becomes frustrating to post genuine info, one can only hope that the other readers can recognise the wheat from the chaff.

[anotherthing]

A Lurker

So new staff would be on a proposed rate of pay of market rate + 10%... Are you so arrogant that you think you are worth more than that? Is the BA service really that much better than other airlines that you can command more than +10%?

The clue is in the +10%. i.e. new staff will still be paid more than other CC. FFS if anyone thinks getting 10% above the going rate in this financial climate is bad, then they are completely stupid

[Two-Tone-Blue]

@ anotherthing ... surely the point being made by BASSA is that, regardless of what is spelt out in black and white in terms that even we non-CC "sundry" can understand, BA might at some unspecified point in the future, do something as yet undefined about something. That inherently makes BA something bad, and it must therefore be held to ransom just in case.

[Snas]

For BA CC what is the alternative to BASSA?
I'm very much for unions, but only good ones, not bad ones, and BASSA fall into the latter group certainly.

CC89 was nice but alas now part of the same crowd?

[ottergirl]

So how about if BA issue the 90 day contract termination notice, and then immediately offer existing CC that are not BASSA members, and those that do not want to strike and are willing to accept what has been imposed, a new contract that matches what they are being asked to do now?

I'm no expert in employment law Desertia, but I'm reasonably confident that such a thing would be illegal. First they would have to close down BA and that would not make the share-holders very happy.

There has been lots of mentions of this '90 days notice to terminate contracts' but it can only be done under the auspices of redundancy which then prevents further recruitment into those roles for two years I believe. Legislation designed to protect the workforce from unscrupulous employers. Having worked for GF in the past, I know you don't have the same protection in the Gulf.

Then there is the Airside pass, it takes quite some time to get the necessary clearance from the Criminal Records Check co. (often up to 3 months) and passes are not transferable between companies. Additionally, new crew are trained for 5 weeks before flying by existing crew so we'd need to keep some trainers. The SCCM's must have a years flying experience before they can be considered 'in-charge' so we'd need to keep enough of them as well. A mass replacement of crew therefore is not an option. The only way to resolve this is for both sides to start and keep talking until they reach an agreement. There's NO QUICK FIX.

All views my own as always!

[HiFlyer14]

Snas - you are right. What we the cabin crew community need right now is proper representation. Those of us who have differing views MUST be allowed to put them forward, in an appropriate manner. If we were allowed to put our view forward, then I am sure there would be a lot more support for our new, modern thinking council.

It is interesting that those with "differing" views from the BASSA rants, are banned from CrewForum. However they invite crew pensioners from BA to post such utter rubbish as this:

So, in 2010 it looks like the boot, at long last, is now upon the other foot and the Pilots are now moving towards Unite. IF this takes off it has to be a welcome move - and it has only taken them 20+ years to see the light....
Let us hope that more and more pilots join Unite, which is the only truly democratic Union representing BA employees. BALPA have for far too long represented a small group of premium employees, from where I've sat over the last 30 odd years have only represented a small minority at the top of their field rather than the majority of people who reside somewhere lower down the pecking order. There have been mutterings of discontent on numerous occasions from BALPA members, let's hope this time that a large majority of them come on over to Unite.

BAbe, you hit the nail squarely on the head - and I would urge those of you who feel able to converse with the pilots in industrial relations matters to talk to them and dispel the view that many of them hold that Unite is bolshie, always looking to strike, and always erring on the side of militancy. Unite, unlike BALPA, is a truly democratic organisation that looks towards protecting ALL of its members and it is a Branch-led organisation rather than a cosy cartel .... and as has been pointed out it's a darn sight cheaper!! Be gentle and kind with them and more may come over - many will see the move as one of 'treachery' but they should view it more of being able to make a fresh start against a bullying employer who has its own vested interests at stake rather than the well-being of the company, its staff and most importantly of all, its customers.
Oh yes, and the other bonus is it would surely wipe the smirk off of Willy Walsh's face - can you just imagine what a remarkable achievement he would have overseen if he gets the majority of BALPA members over to Unite??? He'll be spitting feathers and the financial owners of the company will be going ballistic if he forces the one group of workers he had 'in his pocket' into joining the 'militants' that he has vowed to destroy

It is amazing that EasyTiger - who "manages" CrewForum has invited this guest "Easy" to post. Talk about biased! The motto there is if you follow our view, you can come in. If not, then ##ss off! What people do not appreciate is that this person is a pensioner, probably protected from the black hole pension fund that we are all going to endure, and their livelihood will not be affected by a BA strike.

It really is time for us to speak out against this corrupt community that is called BASSA. As BASSA do not allow different views, nor do they represent the members' views, we have no alternative but to set up our own works council that encompasses all views and is open to discussion and negotiation with the company, in the interests of the company, the customer and the employees.

In short, adults doing business in 2010. Who's in?

I am BA cabin crew and the above is my own view, and not that of BA.

[interlog]

With regards the 90 day notice. A Company may do so (providing it is in the original Ts and Cs) without redundancy.

Those people that don't agree with it may resign and seek a claim for unfair dismissal / constructive dismissal. That would be at the claimant's expense and as long as BA has been reasonable with the changes in the terms a very hard point to prove.

[Hotel Mode]

Unites website directs pilots to BALPA for goodness sake. Why would any pilot waste £11 a month on a union that has no knowledge of piloting, no reps with aviation knowledge to represent them at tribunals, no legal protection etc etc. Theres the IPA if they dont like BALPA.

Crewforumites dont appear to inhabit the same planet as the rest of us.

[wiggy]

Crewforumites dont appear to inhabit the same planet as the rest of us.

Kind of begs the comment that if the majority of Cabin Crew believe that pilots are deserting BALPA to join UNITE they really will believe anything......which is why we are where we are now and why BASSA in it's current form, run by it's current Reps, is such a menace to it's members, the Company and the majority of the workforce.