British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations
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BB
If true (and your posts always seem very well-informed) and ACAS witnessed this, then BASSA are in a whole world of trouble. In fact, I would deem their position indefensible.
So how many want to risk striking with that kind of backing? Assuming BASSA ballot us.
ACAS witnessed their attendance (or not) during the facilitated sessions. They also experienced first hand BASSA's approach to serious business issues (fingers in ears, "la,la,la, we're not listening").
All the usual antics, turning up late, calling adjournments, leaving early, wasting time with rants etc etc. Classics from the BASSA playbook.
All the usual antics, turning up late, calling adjournments, leaving early, wasting time with rants etc etc. Classics from the BASSA playbook.
So how many want to risk striking with that kind of backing? Assuming BASSA ballot us.
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As I said earlier today (0144 
):
The disruption agreement is WWs next target.
BA senior management are rather busy with other pressing items and they will let the steamroller continue now that the parking brake has been released.
):
The reality, when it dawns, will be a heavy blow to some (many?)
BA senior management are rather busy with other pressing items and they will let the steamroller continue now that the parking brake has been released.
You deserve it to yourselves to depose the leadership, or at least join CC89.
But, whatever, I am not sure that joining CC89 would be the only solution. The members of BASSA need to turn their union upside down, inside out and get rid of all the current incumbents. ALL of them.
And then start afresh with some sensible, reasoning, lucid adults. Seriously.
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As a student of totalitarian regimes in the past, UNITE and BASSA epitomise the worst of the Soviet regime. In studying those regimes, I used to wonder how they perpetuated, and how the good were unable to speak up.
I like this bit the best:
I’ve listened to your feedback and I will now look to make savings from future crew at Heathrow
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Caudillo
More rhetoric.
What other choice did BA have? They faced a Union that wouldn't even acknowledge the necessity for change and savings. Wouldn't take up the offer to sign disclosures allowing them access to the confidential BA accounts. Accounts that would have given them the opportunity to brief themselves fully on the state of the finances. Wouldn't you have thought that was an essential prerequisite? Don't you need all the important facts before you decide on a strategy? How easy it is to deny the need to make savings when you just choose to ignore the more painful facts?
Whatever; those changes and savings DO need to be made. Willie is ensuring they are.
I'm not normally particularly pro-BA and, in the past I, have despaired of their attitude at times but I reckon they've pretty upfront about all of this. We were told time and time again that the targets must be met. Was it all just going to go away if we delayed long enough? It seems many hoped so. Sadly, fingers-in-ears and "la la la, we're not listening" has left us with the outcome we merited.
More rhetoric.
What other choice did BA have? They faced a Union that wouldn't even acknowledge the necessity for change and savings. Wouldn't take up the offer to sign disclosures allowing them access to the confidential BA accounts. Accounts that would have given them the opportunity to brief themselves fully on the state of the finances. Wouldn't you have thought that was an essential prerequisite? Don't you need all the important facts before you decide on a strategy? How easy it is to deny the need to make savings when you just choose to ignore the more painful facts?
Whatever; those changes and savings DO need to be made. Willie is ensuring they are.
I'm not normally particularly pro-BA and, in the past I, have despaired of their attitude at times but I reckon they've pretty upfront about all of this. We were told time and time again that the targets must be met. Was it all just going to go away if we delayed long enough? It seems many hoped so. Sadly, fingers-in-ears and "la la la, we're not listening" has left us with the outcome we merited.
Last edited by Nutjob; 7th Oct 2009 at 08:55. Reason: Spelling - as usual
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Unions disgust me. Not for the fact that they are trying to support their membership, but for the fact that the "General Secretaries" and "Reps" do nothing more than promote their own power bases and political ambitions, and nothing to further the interests of those at the bottom.
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Unions per se exist to support their membership and have proven and will continue to prove to be a useful tool between the wishes of the employee and the wishes of the employer.
What has been tragic in this entire sorry mess has been the inability of the BASSA union to correctly represent all its members during a very difficult period and not just upholding the edicts of the militant tub thumpers and the protection of the LH senior payments.
Tarring all unions with the militant brush does nothing but stir up a hornets nest.
IMHO of course!
What has been tragic in this entire sorry mess has been the inability of the BASSA union to correctly represent all its members during a very difficult period and not just upholding the edicts of the militant tub thumpers and the protection of the LH senior payments.
Tarring all unions with the militant brush does nothing but stir up a hornets nest.
IMHO of course!
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Good luck to all concerned... Remain positive, the Unions are there for a reason to help and make things as best as they can for you guys/girls.
I've just walked away from a business that cut 15,000 people and pay freezes etc, to progress with obtaining qualifications for a future career, so sadly it's adjusting to the times for all around.
All businesses are cutting back to ensure they have a optimum balance for the future, whilst generating greater work loads for those left etc.
It's part of a new chapter, what ever that may be for all of us, but I always believe good things will happen eventually
, whilst it's frustrating/stressful right now (been there myself quite recently).
Only you can decide what you will do next.
I've just walked away from a business that cut 15,000 people and pay freezes etc, to progress with obtaining qualifications for a future career, so sadly it's adjusting to the times for all around.
All businesses are cutting back to ensure they have a optimum balance for the future, whilst generating greater work loads for those left etc.
It's part of a new chapter, what ever that may be for all of us, but I always believe good things will happen eventually
, whilst it's frustrating/stressful right now (been there myself quite recently).Only you can decide what you will do next.
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Disruption Agreement
I think you'll find that the disruption agreement will not apply to new crew and yes it is on the agenda.
No sane employer can allow the union to determine whether a service can operate or not
No sane employer can allow the union to determine whether a service can operate or not
The following posted above, about BASSA:
I have a sneaky suspicion that the BASSA reps don't have anyone with the financial acumen to examine and understand BA's accounts. That is the only reason that I can fathom for them having avoided even looking at the accounts. They just couldn't face the embarrassment of having to admit they didn't know what it all meant?
Given BASSA's style of the last couple of decades, it seems to have been thought that the foot-stomping tantrum, fingers-in-ears type of 'negotiation' was the only method going. Consequently, during that period, BASSA has only attracted reps who are entirely devoid of the skills required for adult negotiation. Some unions employ outside experts to do the specialist digging for them, and that can be expensive, which is why some professional union subscriptions are a pretty substantial proportion of salary (unlike BASSA's subs). Perhaps BASSA couldn't bear to spend any money on this, and perhaps they quietly knew the answer it would produce? Hence they resorted to the 'la-la-la, I'm not listening' school of 'negotiation', which has apparently been so useful to them in the past, but this time has caught them with their knickers down.
BASSA have been showed up for the limited intellect they actually have! Serve them right!
Wouldn't take up the offer to sign disclosures allowing them access to the confidential BA accounts. Accounts that would have given them the opportunity to brief themselves fully on the state of the finances.
Given BASSA's style of the last couple of decades, it seems to have been thought that the foot-stomping tantrum, fingers-in-ears type of 'negotiation' was the only method going. Consequently, during that period, BASSA has only attracted reps who are entirely devoid of the skills required for adult negotiation. Some unions employ outside experts to do the specialist digging for them, and that can be expensive, which is why some professional union subscriptions are a pretty substantial proportion of salary (unlike BASSA's subs). Perhaps BASSA couldn't bear to spend any money on this, and perhaps they quietly knew the answer it would produce? Hence they resorted to the 'la-la-la, I'm not listening' school of 'negotiation', which has apparently been so useful to them in the past, but this time has caught them with their knickers down.
BASSA have been showed up for the limited intellect they actually have! Serve them right!
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Hi deeceethree
Whilst I agree totally about the types of rep we have, I honestly wouldn't expect ANY rep to be able to interpret the accounts themselves. We can't all have a perfect skillset. All they needed to do was employ someone knowledgeable to examine the accounts and them them to say:
"It's all another BA bluff"
or
"Actually, the brown stuff really has hit the fan. This is for real, BA are in trouble"
Whilst I agree totally about the types of rep we have, I honestly wouldn't expect ANY rep to be able to interpret the accounts themselves. We can't all have a perfect skillset. All they needed to do was employ someone knowledgeable to examine the accounts and them them to say:
"It's all another BA bluff"
or
"Actually, the brown stuff really has hit the fan. This is for real, BA are in trouble"
nutjob,
I take your point, but I suspect BASSA would be loathe to admit to any lack of knowledge, and therefore loathe to invite outside experts in, who would certainly contradict their narrow views. I believe the BA BALPA team have some extremely clever chaps, with financial knowledge that makes you wonder why they don't work in the City! But, of course, BALPA uses outside experts when, and as, required.
The main difference is that BALPA is a national organisation, BASSA is not. BASSA is so focussed on itself (and by that I mean it seems to focus on the hierarchy, rather than the coal-face workers and reality) that is utterly clueless about the bigger picture. Utterly clueless. BALPA can at least call on national (and international!) experience. But that is why BALPA costs its members 1% of their pensionable salaries ..........
I take your point, but I suspect BASSA would be loathe to admit to any lack of knowledge, and therefore loathe to invite outside experts in, who would certainly contradict their narrow views. I believe the BA BALPA team have some extremely clever chaps, with financial knowledge that makes you wonder why they don't work in the City! But, of course, BALPA uses outside experts when, and as, required.
The main difference is that BALPA is a national organisation, BASSA is not. BASSA is so focussed on itself (and by that I mean it seems to focus on the hierarchy, rather than the coal-face workers and reality) that is utterly clueless about the bigger picture. Utterly clueless. BALPA can at least call on national (and international!) experience. But that is why BALPA costs its members 1% of their pensionable salaries ..........
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It is obvious to anyone that the Bassa inspection of the accounts was nothing more than another delaying tactic. It is highly unlikely any of their reps would have understood the accounts. The everage person wouldn't have done so either.
They could have employed someone who would have understood the accounts. Did they do that?
I find it unbeleiveable that anyone could seriously doubt BA's accountants after they had been inspected by a highly respectable financial institution and submitted to Companies House like all Ltd companies have to.
It was just another petty reason to delay negotiations that they must have known were necessary in order for the airline to survive in the future. Fingers in the ears to block out hearing reality is an old habit that dies hard but not one that is recommended by a union that is there to represent their members' best interests.
Having said this I think they have got off fairly lightly.
No-one will lose a penny in pay which is of prime importance and they will still get their time off at night stopping destinations and everything else they have enjoyed. Was it not Bassa that suggested a 2.6% reduction in pay or has that been conveniently forgotten by them?
They could have employed someone who would have understood the accounts. Did they do that?
I find it unbeleiveable that anyone could seriously doubt BA's accountants after they had been inspected by a highly respectable financial institution and submitted to Companies House like all Ltd companies have to.
It was just another petty reason to delay negotiations that they must have known were necessary in order for the airline to survive in the future. Fingers in the ears to block out hearing reality is an old habit that dies hard but not one that is recommended by a union that is there to represent their members' best interests.
Having said this I think they have got off fairly lightly.
No-one will lose a penny in pay which is of prime importance and they will still get their time off at night stopping destinations and everything else they have enjoyed. Was it not Bassa that suggested a 2.6% reduction in pay or has that been conveniently forgotten by them?
Jean-Lill,
BASSA did not inspect the accounts. They chose not to! So how could they approach any negotiation with any sense of what was required? No, instead they chose their old hissy-fit tactics. They really just think that the worlds problems are eveybody else's problem.
And yes, BASSA did 'suggest' a 2.6% pay cut. But that was nothing more than a cut-and-paste (from amongst many sections) of part of the deal BALPA negotiated for the pilots. BASSA couldn't even be bothered to pluck it's own figure out of thin air - it had to copy the pilots! Even when BA didn't ask for a pay cut! Proves my point about their limited intellect, I think. Utterly devoid of any common sense or professionalism. Cabin crew at BA have been merely paying union subs for a 'cosy' but mindless committee who wouldn't know a barn door if they walked into it.
BASSA did not inspect the accounts. They chose not to! So how could they approach any negotiation with any sense of what was required? No, instead they chose their old hissy-fit tactics. They really just think that the worlds problems are eveybody else's problem.
And yes, BASSA did 'suggest' a 2.6% pay cut. But that was nothing more than a cut-and-paste (from amongst many sections) of part of the deal BALPA negotiated for the pilots. BASSA couldn't even be bothered to pluck it's own figure out of thin air - it had to copy the pilots! Even when BA didn't ask for a pay cut! Proves my point about their limited intellect, I think. Utterly devoid of any common sense or professionalism. Cabin crew at BA have been merely paying union subs for a 'cosy' but mindless committee who wouldn't know a barn door if they walked into it.
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But that was nothing more than a cut-and-paste (from amongst many sections) of part of the deal BALPA negotiated for the pilots. BASSA couldn't even be bothered to pluck it's own figure out of thin air - it had to copy the pilots!
Cabin crew are always hacked away at. Our pay. Our terms and conditions. It's always take, take, take by the company when it comes to negotiations over Cabin Crew renumeration but with the pilots the company takes with one hand and gives back with the other.
Cabin crew aren't asking for anything other than to be treated fairly and in line with our other airborne colleagues.
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No-one will lose a penny in pay which is of prime importance and they will still get their time off at night stopping destinations and everything else they have enjoyed. Was it not Bassa that suggested a 2.6% reduction in pay or has that been conveniently forgotten by them?
The paycut/freeze deal proposed by Bassa meant that "new fleet" was not a requirement.
BA has now decided to press ahead with New Fleet which, unless assurances are made governing how work will be allocated, means existing crew could face losses of more than 2.6% when more financially rewarding trips to the Far East, for example, get moved across.
For a lot of crew the prospect of taking a 2.6% pay cut was far less daunting than what's now being implemented.
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Eddy:
"Cabin crew aren't asking for anything other than to be treated fairly and in line with our other airborne colleagues"
I think you are justified about being treated fairly sure, but why in line with "our other airborne colleagues"
The 2 jobs aren't 'colleagues' in the sense I think you are claiming, and the debate over market rate etc has been done to death and proven.
d2k
"Cabin crew aren't asking for anything other than to be treated fairly and in line with our other airborne colleagues"
I think you are justified about being treated fairly sure, but why in line with "our other airborne colleagues"
The 2 jobs aren't 'colleagues' in the sense I think you are claiming, and the debate over market rate etc has been done to death and proven.
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Ok Eddy,
I hear you, but if that's the case, where was BASSA's offer to take a cut in allowances as well, as we've done? The paycut was a clumsy cherry-pick from the BA/BALPA documentation, not a copy of the same. As for the persistent attitude that we'll get this all back in shares in the future - not even close to being possible - the monetary value of those shares is fixed and therefore it's the number of shares that will vary depending on how much they're worth at the time they vest to us. So no chance to win big on the stock market lottery there. Won't even cover the amount of cash I'll be down in year one from the deal.
Word on the BALPA street is that this share deal was around to be had for the crew as well. I can't vouch for that but it'd be worth knowing if it had been there and had been dismissed by your reps wouldn't it?
Don't get me wrong, I've no interest in seeing any crew member lopped off at the knees financially, but it gets wearing when BASSA only print the bits that suit them when it comes to the flight crew community. Our agreement was freely available to the branch chair and she knowingly raised the bile of her membership by picking the bits she wanted and discarding the rest. A bit like those in the know in BASSA not stamping on silly little rumours (black-tie ball for retiring pilots paid for by BA) because it suits them to keep the membership in a state of righteous indignation. As if BA were going to pay for a ball for these guys. Sheesh.
Like all deals, it has to be seen in its' entirety, much as the devil's in the details of the BA imposition (route transfer etc).
MrB
I hear you, but if that's the case, where was BASSA's offer to take a cut in allowances as well, as we've done? The paycut was a clumsy cherry-pick from the BA/BALPA documentation, not a copy of the same. As for the persistent attitude that we'll get this all back in shares in the future - not even close to being possible - the monetary value of those shares is fixed and therefore it's the number of shares that will vary depending on how much they're worth at the time they vest to us. So no chance to win big on the stock market lottery there. Won't even cover the amount of cash I'll be down in year one from the deal.
Word on the BALPA street is that this share deal was around to be had for the crew as well. I can't vouch for that but it'd be worth knowing if it had been there and had been dismissed by your reps wouldn't it?
Don't get me wrong, I've no interest in seeing any crew member lopped off at the knees financially, but it gets wearing when BASSA only print the bits that suit them when it comes to the flight crew community. Our agreement was freely available to the branch chair and she knowingly raised the bile of her membership by picking the bits she wanted and discarding the rest. A bit like those in the know in BASSA not stamping on silly little rumours (black-tie ball for retiring pilots paid for by BA) because it suits them to keep the membership in a state of righteous indignation. As if BA were going to pay for a ball for these guys. Sheesh.
Like all deals, it has to be seen in its' entirety, much as the devil's in the details of the BA imposition (route transfer etc).
MrB