British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations
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And why are so many crew seemingly unable to assist the driver to retrieve their bag from the crew bus downroute?
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Hi Alexandraa and romans44
You know I like nothing more than clarifying!
So in response to your questions (post #6302 today), please go back to post # 3733 by Topbunk who kindly provides a link to the CAA where those figures are recorded, not a company website.
All the news bulletins I have watched over the past week have also given the CAA as the source.
Timing for IA.
The law is quite clear about the timing of IA after a ballot. I understand that once the ballot closes the union have to take action within 4 weeks.
I believe the ballot closed on the 14th Dec, the same day the announcement to strike was made.
If I am correct, IA could have been instigated at anytime from the 14th Dec until around the 10th Jan 2010. The only other condition is the company is given 7 days notice of the action starting.
The date chosen for IA was the 22nd December for 12 days!
This was on the 8th day after the ballot closed and the result was announced.
So, please let me know if I have got this completely wrong in which case I will apologise, or if I am correct in that action could have been taken any time after the New Year had started up to the 28 day limit.
Legal eagles please respond.
romans44, Alexandraa do you agree?
My own views, not my employers or any other parties.
So in response to your questions (post #6302 today), please go back to post # 3733 by Topbunk who kindly provides a link to the CAA where those figures are recorded, not a company website.
All the news bulletins I have watched over the past week have also given the CAA as the source.
Timing for IA.
The law is quite clear about the timing of IA after a ballot. I understand that once the ballot closes the union have to take action within 4 weeks.
I believe the ballot closed on the 14th Dec, the same day the announcement to strike was made.
If I am correct, IA could have been instigated at anytime from the 14th Dec until around the 10th Jan 2010. The only other condition is the company is given 7 days notice of the action starting.
The date chosen for IA was the 22nd December for 12 days!
This was on the 8th day after the ballot closed and the result was announced.
So, please let me know if I have got this completely wrong in which case I will apologise, or if I am correct in that action could have been taken any time after the New Year had started up to the 28 day limit.
Legal eagles please respond.
romans44, Alexandraa do you agree?
My own views, not my employers or any other parties.
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It has gone quiet on the February court case.
I am beginning to wonder whether BASSA has been advised that they are unlikely to obtain a favourable settlement.
That may explain why they went for the nuclear option of a 12 day strike over Christmas.
They may have hoped that events would turn so that they won before the court action.
I am beginning to wonder whether BASSA has been advised that they are unlikely to obtain a favourable settlement.
That may explain why they went for the nuclear option of a 12 day strike over Christmas.
They may have hoped that events would turn so that they won before the court action.
The court case is a salient point because of course Unite has called a strike and is now reballoting without knowing whether the issue on which it is balloting has any legal merit or not, leaving it exposed to a massive damages claim if BA wins.
BALPA was criticised earlier for pulling out of litigation with BA over OpenSkies. In fact what BALPA did was leave personal agendas to one side and make a level-headed decision not to risk being liable for considerable legal expenses over an untested issue. Unite is doing the opposite.
Litigating in order to pursue personal agendas and not on the basis of the legal merits of your case usually ends up in disaster. There is nothing at all wrong with knowing when to give up gracefully.
Last edited by LD12986; 19th Dec 2009 at 17:58.
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@romans44
On second and third thoughts maybe I was a bit harsh with my comments on your numerical ability and if so I apologise, but if that is the case maybe you ought to leave any numbers and percentages out of your posts to avoid confusion.
On second and third thoughts maybe I was a bit harsh with my comments on your numerical ability and if so I apologise, but if that is the case maybe you ought to leave any numbers and percentages out of your posts to avoid confusion.
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romans44
I did not suggest that you made the numbers up just trying to point out that they do not make numerical sense. Perhaps as you were in the court you can clarify what you did mean to convey.
Finally as a matter of courtesy, please try to get the name correct it is written at the front of every post and is not difficult to copy correctly.
Juan togoh, those are the numbers....I was at the high Court when the lawyer read the ballot to the Judge. I am not making numbers up.
If you don't want to believe it I am afraid that is your call..
If you don't want to believe it I am afraid that is your call..
Finally as a matter of courtesy, please try to get the name correct it is written at the front of every post and is not difficult to copy correctly.
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On second and third thoughts maybe I was a bit harsh with my comments on your numerical ability and if so I apologise, but if that is the case maybe you ought to leave any numbers and percentages out of your posts to avoid confusion
Alpineskier, no offence taken.
The numbers I gave, are the numbers from the amount of ballots returned ...
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Finally as a matter of courtesy, please try to get the name correct it is written at the front of every post and is not difficult to copy correctly
I hope my previous post has clarified my point.
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Hello Romans44
Like I posted earlier, there's a lot of stuff on here. I must have missed your reply. I did a search and could not find it.
Could you please oblige and post a reference or a link. I am very interested to know what you think.
Cherwell
I have already read and replied to the post.
I have already read and replied to the post.
Could you please oblige and post a reference or a link. I am very interested to know what you think.
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The law is quite clear about the timing of IA after a ballot. I understand that once the ballot closes the union have to take action within 4 weeks.
I believe the ballot closed on the 14th Dec, the same day the announcement to strike was made.
If I am correct, IA could have been instigated at anytime from the 14th Dec until around the 10th Jan 2010. The only other condition is the company is given 7 days notice of the action starting
I believe the ballot closed on the 14th Dec, the same day the announcement to strike was made.
If I am correct, IA could have been instigated at anytime from the 14th Dec until around the 10th Jan 2010. The only other condition is the company is given 7 days notice of the action starting
Clarified, you are absolutelly right.
However, as harsh as this may sound if you want a strike to work, then you have to have it when it makes the most impact ...
There would be no point in striking on the 5 of January when usually planes are empty
I am only stating a fact here so please don't kill me over this.
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Am I right in the following observation:
The voting cc members of the Union will now wish further clarification as to the intended length of the initial strike and the period before they will be wiling to vote again FOR strike action?
I have read comments here from NO voters as well as from convinced YES voters, but I have heard surprisingly few comments from people who voted YES but subsequently regretted their vote.
SLF vH
The voting cc members of the Union will now wish further clarification as to the intended length of the initial strike and the period before they will be wiling to vote again FOR strike action?
I have read comments here from NO voters as well as from convinced YES voters, but I have heard surprisingly few comments from people who voted YES but subsequently regretted their vote.
SLF vH
Last edited by vanHorck; 19th Dec 2009 at 18:17. Reason: addition: I am SLF
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Well it looks like Justice Mrs Cox is actually Simon Calder in drag!!
I wonder if Judge Cox had been presiding over an injunction brought by Royal Mail against striking employees over Christmas, whether the late delivery of her Christmas cards would have also influenced her judgement? The "Christmas Factor" certainly saved Willie Walsh's bacon. Would a male judge have come to the same conclusion? Would the application been successful in February? Why should it be a concern of a judge on the financial impact of a strike? It is completely outside her remit. No wonder Mr Bumble in Dicken's 'Oliver Twist' remarked:"the law is an ass" (sic).
But now the granting of the injunction to BA, has only put a turbo charger on the seething anger and resentment of BA's cabin crew, which has now been stoked up to white heat. Many a Home Secretary has been infuriated by the decisions made in the High Court by out of touch Judges. This is just another example of a Judge making up the law as he/she goes along.
This is only a stay of exection for Walsh, the problem has not gone away. It is now going to drag on for months, with the continuing damage inflicted to new and forward bookings. The airline is in meltdown and the only solution is to remove Walsh. As an accountant who happens to have a pilot's licence, Walsh is concentrating too much on his obsession with bean counting, whilst neglecting any strategic vision for the future of British Airways. BA has suspended operations from regional airports to international destinations under his watch, and has failed to develop strategic alliances. The 'catchment' area for BA is now as restricted as KLM before its merger with AF.
I was almost spot on with my last predicition for the ballot result. This time I predict that the YES vote will be even higher.
In the meantime UNITE must be careful with the dates it may choose for a strike in case BA apply for another injunction. Definitely a strike over Ascot week or Henley Regatta would be a bad idea.
I wonder if Judge Cox had been presiding over an injunction brought by Royal Mail against striking employees over Christmas, whether the late delivery of her Christmas cards would have also influenced her judgement? The "Christmas Factor" certainly saved Willie Walsh's bacon. Would a male judge have come to the same conclusion? Would the application been successful in February? Why should it be a concern of a judge on the financial impact of a strike? It is completely outside her remit. No wonder Mr Bumble in Dicken's 'Oliver Twist' remarked:"the law is an ass" (sic).
But now the granting of the injunction to BA, has only put a turbo charger on the seething anger and resentment of BA's cabin crew, which has now been stoked up to white heat. Many a Home Secretary has been infuriated by the decisions made in the High Court by out of touch Judges. This is just another example of a Judge making up the law as he/she goes along.
This is only a stay of exection for Walsh, the problem has not gone away. It is now going to drag on for months, with the continuing damage inflicted to new and forward bookings. The airline is in meltdown and the only solution is to remove Walsh. As an accountant who happens to have a pilot's licence, Walsh is concentrating too much on his obsession with bean counting, whilst neglecting any strategic vision for the future of British Airways. BA has suspended operations from regional airports to international destinations under his watch, and has failed to develop strategic alliances. The 'catchment' area for BA is now as restricted as KLM before its merger with AF.
I was almost spot on with my last predicition for the ballot result. This time I predict that the YES vote will be even higher.
In the meantime UNITE must be careful with the dates it may choose for a strike in case BA apply for another injunction. Definitely a strike over Ascot week or Henley Regatta would be a bad idea.
Last edited by Fume Event; 19th Dec 2009 at 20:43.
Fume Event
'....the only solution is to remove Walsh'
'This is only a stay of exection for Walsh,'
As an SLF looking in thanks for the clarification. I thought it was about a small re-jigging of duties. Didn't realise the employee's has a strategic objective.
'This is only a stay of exection for Walsh,'
As an SLF looking in thanks for the clarification. I thought it was about a small re-jigging of duties. Didn't realise the employee's has a strategic objective.
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Alexandraa, ref post 6304, I agree with single nightstops on longhaul would be very tiring, the reason I put it on there was just that BA/BASSA should look at virtually every part of each agreement that could be changed, put a cost tag on it then pick and choose JUST A FEW in each to make the required savings, not all as that would probably be like a £500m saving! I would agree with you they would be probably the least favourable saving - I'm on eurofleet but I could just imagine! 10 hours with 1 night off then 10 hours again across loads of different time zones yuk! Didn't Virgin trial it not so long ago, or go to but found it didn't work??
Longhaul crew in fairness if we believe the figures reach 900hours quickly anyway so having single nighstops on LAX, SFO would probably exacerbate that so probably would cost the company more to have crew grounded all the time! They would need more crew! I think BA have stated longhaul crew are productive in normal operations but not in disruption and shorthaul crew are not productive normally but are in disruption! So maybe as you said shorthaul might have to make most productivity savings as it's true as a full timer I have reached around 640-650 hours in 12 months, I would be more than willing to get rid of sitting there for hours inbetween trips in the CRC and just get on with the flights! Get home quicker!!! As long as we had a reasonable break at some point which was in line with working time directives - but to sometimes have 3 hours CRC change aircraft, which can be a nuisance especially when you are delayed and lose the next part of your trip - sector of a double!!
So, they are re-ballotting are they??? Well I voted No last time and will Vote No this time! I don't think they will get as high a Yes this time although I still won't be surprised a majority Yes as there are still many people angry at BA ''just remove the imposition and we'll be fine'' - BASSA had many warnings of imposition and BA left it 3 or 4 months after the deadline before imposing, it's just BASSA doesn't seem to be used to this business as they have had far too long being used to controlling BA by the sounds of it!! Air travel is not the same as it was 35 years ago I'm afraid!!
Before a militant jumps on my back - I do NOT want to be shafted, work in slave labour for half the pay blah blah - but just answer this if you are going to say ''BA will give us a 30% paycut and longer days'' - where have they stated WE will have this?? Thanks (I'm sure many people will love to hear the answer if you provide one as they have been asking for months!!!
Longhaul crew in fairness if we believe the figures reach 900hours quickly anyway so having single nighstops on LAX, SFO would probably exacerbate that so probably would cost the company more to have crew grounded all the time! They would need more crew! I think BA have stated longhaul crew are productive in normal operations but not in disruption and shorthaul crew are not productive normally but are in disruption! So maybe as you said shorthaul might have to make most productivity savings as it's true as a full timer I have reached around 640-650 hours in 12 months, I would be more than willing to get rid of sitting there for hours inbetween trips in the CRC and just get on with the flights! Get home quicker!!! As long as we had a reasonable break at some point which was in line with working time directives - but to sometimes have 3 hours CRC change aircraft, which can be a nuisance especially when you are delayed and lose the next part of your trip - sector of a double!!
So, they are re-ballotting are they??? Well I voted No last time and will Vote No this time! I don't think they will get as high a Yes this time although I still won't be surprised a majority Yes as there are still many people angry at BA ''just remove the imposition and we'll be fine'' - BASSA had many warnings of imposition and BA left it 3 or 4 months after the deadline before imposing, it's just BASSA doesn't seem to be used to this business as they have had far too long being used to controlling BA by the sounds of it!! Air travel is not the same as it was 35 years ago I'm afraid!!
Before a militant jumps on my back - I do NOT want to be shafted, work in slave labour for half the pay blah blah - but just answer this if you are going to say ''BA will give us a 30% paycut and longer days'' - where have they stated WE will have this?? Thanks (I'm sure many people will love to hear the answer if you provide one as they have been asking for months!!!
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Like I posted earlier, there's a lot of stuff on here. I must have missed your reply. I did a search and could not find it.
Could you please oblige and post a reference or a link. I am very interested to know what you think
Could you please oblige and post a reference or a link. I am very interested to know what you think
I am not sure how you do that. I am new to this forum and slowly learning how to use it. I have now mastered the quote bit, tomorrow I shall look on how to post a reference.
I will however tell you what I think about it.
The post has some valid points, however like you say, it is the perspective of someone from the outside and being an outsider he/she can only have a perspective view of what is going on within the company.
The one thing I would like to make clear is that I wish people ( especially people who do not work for the company and can only rely on what the media says) would stop going on about money.
This has nothing to do with money, it has never been about money and it won't be about money....
You know, as much as I do, that we have offered a pay cut and it was turned down
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vanHorck at work and reading the other two forums, it looks like most people do not regret the actual vote - only difference a lot of Yes to strike voters seem to want a strike but want to control the dates and length.... Alot of people though like the thought of a strike after Xmas better as it affects ''business people'' and ''companies'' which would put more pressure on WW than families being disrupted Sounds abit silly if you ask me as both types of disruption are both as bad! Although can see about the companies putting pressure on WW but couldn't that have worse an impact as businesses leave BA for other carriers and we lose alot of revenue..... BASSA say if they had less than 12 days they would have not won.... so let's see if they say how long it will be next time if that is of course if there is a majority yes next time! Hopefully more people see sense and Unite do the best thing - enter serious negotiations!
Alot of people feel let down by Unite but still trust BASSA judging the forum!!
Sounds abit silly if you ask me as both types of disruption are both as bad! Although can see about the companies putting pressure on WW but couldn't that have worse an impact as businesses leave BA for other carriers and we lose alot of revenue..... BASSA say if they had less than 12 days they would have not won.... so let's see if they say how long it will be next time if that is of course if there is a majority yes next time! Hopefully more people see sense and Unite do the best thing - enter serious negotiations!Alot of people feel let down by Unite but still trust BASSA judging the forum!!
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FE
Is that a comment or a quote?
I didn't understand the Justice Cox/Simon Calder bit.
I don't live in the UK, who is Simon Calder?
We do have Coronation Street in Finland, with Finnish subtitles, but I'm told it is up to about 1965 now.
Is that a comment or a quote?
I didn't understand the Justice Cox/Simon Calder bit.
I don't live in the UK, who is Simon Calder?
We do have Coronation Street in Finland, with Finnish subtitles, but I'm told it is up to about 1965 now.
finncapt
Simon Calder is a British travel journalist for a UK newspaper: ofetn on tv as a pundit. He appeared to rip up his own BA ticket on tv as an expression of hopeless disgust. His exasperation is shared by everyone in the UK excluding UNITE leadership and Heathrow based longhaul CC. BTW, Coronation Street only gets worse into the '70's.
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I get the feeling the cabin crew are actually enjoying destroying their reputation and that of their company.
It's as if you can't get down to that Job Centre fast enough. Because if you don't start taking onboard some of the very astute and sensible advice that has been provided on this forum, the dole queue is the only place you will be heading.
Trust me, saying jobs are few and far between is an understatement to say the least.
It's a sad situation when emotion seems to cloud logic. Do you even really know what you are fighting for? Are these impositions really asking you to move mountains, are the terms and conditions really that bad (in comparison to £55 a week on the dole). As ultimately, even if CC and Bassa got what they wanted, will this really benefit the airline, and more directly, the security of your jobs?
Be careful what you wish for...
It's as if you can't get down to that Job Centre fast enough. Because if you don't start taking onboard some of the very astute and sensible advice that has been provided on this forum, the dole queue is the only place you will be heading.
Trust me, saying jobs are few and far between is an understatement to say the least.
It's a sad situation when emotion seems to cloud logic. Do you even really know what you are fighting for? Are these impositions really asking you to move mountains, are the terms and conditions really that bad (in comparison to £55 a week on the dole). As ultimately, even if CC and Bassa got what they wanted, will this really benefit the airline, and more directly, the security of your jobs?
Be careful what you wish for...
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UNITE is to blame for this mess - not BASSA!
Look at the threads over at the other forums and do pay close attention to Miss Malone's dedicated thread of support at CrewForum - she is of course not to blame - she is flawless - their lovely Lala Lady cannot simply be held responsible for this - and how dare media reveal her life in public as they have over the past few days!
(The text above is written with a huge amount of irony)
Seriously - how can they be so mislead? Why won't they admit that Miss Malone is to be held responsible for this? Do they still have confidence in her?
Look at the threads over at the other forums and do pay close attention to Miss Malone's dedicated thread of support at CrewForum - she is of course not to blame - she is flawless - their lovely Lala Lady cannot simply be held responsible for this - and how dare media reveal her life in public as they have over the past few days!
(The text above is written with a huge amount of irony)
Seriously - how can they be so mislead? Why won't they admit that Miss Malone is to be held responsible for this? Do they still have confidence in her?