British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations
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Phoenix Evacuation
Five crew rostered for a single sector European flight at the start of a 3 day tour. The flight was delayed by 3 hours and arrived at 2355Z. This meant because of post flight duties it became a night duty.
The crew were then given 30 hrs off on full allowances and position home as passengers.
The crew were then given 30 hrs off on full allowances and position home as passengers.
The prompt and correct evacuation of our B747 aircraft at Phoenix has reminded me of the reason Briisah Airways cabin crew are arguably the best in the world and deserve their jobs.
All of us work for British Airways - we should support each other and stop this endless inter-departmental bickering and ganging up on certain sections. (A couple of years ago, it was the Baggage/Loading teams who were in for a lambasting.)
We are all the face of British Airways and I refuse to stand idly by and see us all go down the tiolet. If the Cabin Crew do still have a good deal, good luck to them! Their union hasn't caved in like the rest of us!
There is evidence that Waterworld staff have been bullied into agreeing to work for nothing - being threatened with their names being added to a "hit list" and, when it's contract renewal time - "Goodnight Vienna!" What man or woman with family commitments is going to risk being thrown out of work? Whether these people are managers or staff, they deserve our help.
As British Airways workers, we should unite and back each other up.
Junior trash
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I would like to think that, in the present circumstances, the crew would waive their right to this agreement. Did anyone ask them?
Please read this thread and the ones that precede it. You really dont appear to have any idea how BASSA effectivly controls large parts of BAs operational flexibility.
(A couple of years ago, it was the Baggage/Loading teams who were in for a lambasting.)
As British Airways workers, we should unite and back each other up.
Last edited by Hotel Mode; 11th Jul 2009 at 14:40.
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British Airways departed the talks in a state of some huff as they couldn’t get their own way, leaving a somewhat bemused ACAS who thought they were dealing with an airline in crisis.
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There is evidence that Waterworld staff have been bullied into agreeing to work for nothing - being threatened with their names being added to a "hit list" and, when it's contract renewal time - "Goodnight Vienna!" What man or woman with family commitments is going to risk being thrown out of work? Whether these people are managers or staff, they deserve our help.
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Bealine - your wrote:
The City can't be entirely stupid though, can it? If the Broughton/Walsh combo is left in place, there is a strong possibility that British Airways could collapse! These two are bringing the company to the very brink!
The company is already at the brink. If the Broughton/Walsh combo don't push through the reforms BA will collapse. Open your eyes man!
You also wrote:
although British Airways has manufactured its own downfall by successively leading Price Wars year after year after year ever since privatisation. The glorious years of "World Offers" and "Winter Warmers" have bitten us in the bum!
Do you think BA are stupid enough to cut fares when they can fill planes? Or do you think they cut fares because nobody was flying and they needed to stimulate demand to keep the cash flow up?
[i]What I also cannot understand is how the Government can stand idly by, and watch the Unions being deliberately provoked in this way, in order to start an all out war!"
Look outside into the real world. Cuts here, cuts there, cuts everywhere!!! Those are the people who buy our tickets and pay our wages. BA has to make cuts just like every other company that wants to survive. Can you see any other airline that isn't scaling back at the moment? The government is standing by because they know fine well that companies have to restructure in the bad times. If you think New Labour will be riding in on a white charger to strike down the board you are mistaken.
The City can't be entirely stupid though, can it? If the Broughton/Walsh combo is left in place, there is a strong possibility that British Airways could collapse! These two are bringing the company to the very brink!
The company is already at the brink. If the Broughton/Walsh combo don't push through the reforms BA will collapse. Open your eyes man!
You also wrote:
although British Airways has manufactured its own downfall by successively leading Price Wars year after year after year ever since privatisation. The glorious years of "World Offers" and "Winter Warmers" have bitten us in the bum!
Do you think BA are stupid enough to cut fares when they can fill planes? Or do you think they cut fares because nobody was flying and they needed to stimulate demand to keep the cash flow up?
[i]What I also cannot understand is how the Government can stand idly by, and watch the Unions being deliberately provoked in this way, in order to start an all out war!"
Look outside into the real world. Cuts here, cuts there, cuts everywhere!!! Those are the people who buy our tickets and pay our wages. BA has to make cuts just like every other company that wants to survive. Can you see any other airline that isn't scaling back at the moment? The government is standing by because they know fine well that companies have to restructure in the bad times. If you think New Labour will be riding in on a white charger to strike down the board you are mistaken.
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Not only the people at Waterworld. People in scheduling have been forced to take UPL and PT hence the reduced opening hours from 10 am to 3 pm. They are also reducing staff by 30%.
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My wife works within the Ops Dept, they've a roster of 30 heads and they've got to cut 8 staff. There isn't any negotiation, it WILL happen.
On my last trip I mentioned this to the CSD and her response; 'Doesn't interest me, thats their look out'
BASSA are leading thousands of good staff from all walks of BA life over the cliff for the sake of the 'Old Contract Lodge'. Utterly shameful
On my last trip I mentioned this to the CSD and her response; 'Doesn't interest me, thats their look out'
BASSA are leading thousands of good staff from all walks of BA life over the cliff for the sake of the 'Old Contract Lodge'. Utterly shameful
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Bealine
I see you work at Lgw.
Maybe that explains why you are unaware of some of the "restrictive practices" in operation by crew at LHR.
There are very few crew members who dare to transgress union rules for fear of being ostracised and / or fined.
The fine is , of course, a myth, but is still used as a threat .
I see you work at Lgw.
Maybe that explains why you are unaware of some of the "restrictive practices" in operation by crew at LHR.
There are very few crew members who dare to transgress union rules for fear of being ostracised and / or fined.
The fine is , of course, a myth, but is still used as a threat .
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Bealine
We have had aircraft diverted in flight, landing in the US when they should have been landing in the UK, simply because, due to disruption, the crew would have exceeded their industrially agreed hours before reaching the UK. The crew could have perfectly legally and safely continued to destination, but Bassa insisted the flight landed.
(Of course the pilots were willing to continue)
Can you imagine the cost to the company? Or the inconvenience to 300ish passengers? This is the mindset that we deal with on a daily basis, and which Walsh was brought in to eradicate.
If it was your airline, and you paid these people good money to do their job, would you be happy if the union told you when your aircraft would be landing?
We have had aircraft diverted in flight, landing in the US when they should have been landing in the UK, simply because, due to disruption, the crew would have exceeded their industrially agreed hours before reaching the UK. The crew could have perfectly legally and safely continued to destination, but Bassa insisted the flight landed.
(Of course the pilots were willing to continue)
Can you imagine the cost to the company? Or the inconvenience to 300ish passengers? This is the mindset that we deal with on a daily basis, and which Walsh was brought in to eradicate.
If it was your airline, and you paid these people good money to do their job, would you be happy if the union told you when your aircraft would be landing?
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They diverted because it would have contravened a union contract? My airline has been called militant in the past but we have the good to start, good to finish rule.
I'm actually pro union, but in the US you can't get a contract without a union so have to pay dues for the contract negotation. You can pay more to be a full member which I didn't elect to do. I think crews have to remember that we're here to serve the flying public and not the other way around.
I'm actually pro union, but in the US you can't get a contract without a union so have to pay dues for the contract negotation. You can pay more to be a full member which I didn't elect to do. I think crews have to remember that we're here to serve the flying public and not the other way around.
Classic
I can't believe a BA aircraft diverted due to a Union dictat. The Captain is the one who makes those decisions,unless advised by Controlcentre Lhr of other problems.
I only had a problem once during a tech delay, of some of my cc advising me they wished to contact BASSA to see if they should continue. Although we were legal in FTLs . Two were reluctant to continue after contacting BASSA. I offloaded them after advising the CSD, and got on with the job, arriving at destination well within legal limits.
I only had a problem once during a tech delay, of some of my cc advising me they wished to contact BASSA to see if they should continue. Although we were legal in FTLs . Two were reluctant to continue after contacting BASSA. I offloaded them after advising the CSD, and got on with the job, arriving at destination well within legal limits.
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I think crews have to remember that we're here to serve the flying public and not the other way around.
I can't believe a BA aircraft diverted due to a Union dictat. The Captain is the one who makes those decisions,unless advised by Controlcentre Lhr of other problems.
Nuigini
No way would a BA Capt divert because BASSA told him! How would they contact him in flight anyway? Lets not get into fantasyland. The F/C contol the operation not a Union.
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Pete, ops contacted the flight and, despite protestations, insisted that due to ifs (as was then) not exceeding union agreements, the flight was to divert. There was quite a furore surrounding it at the time.
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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cessnapete,
Just to back up MrBunker, a flight a couple of years ago (777 LHR-DEN, I think - ended up in DTW) was diverted by Operations as BASSA would not permit the crew to exceed their industrial agreements.
I would be banned for life from Prune if I wrote what I thought of those contemptable wastes of oxygen. It just shows you what BA are up against.
Just to back up MrBunker, a flight a couple of years ago (777 LHR-DEN, I think - ended up in DTW) was diverted by Operations as BASSA would not permit the crew to exceed their industrial agreements.
I would be banned for life from Prune if I wrote what I thought of those contemptable wastes of oxygen. It just shows you what BA are up against.
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Whilst I have no doubt that one or two of these tales have an element of truth, (by the way, I have been at LHR for three years now), exaggeration and urban myth have no doubt embellished the tales!
I have heard some outlandish tales about pilots over the years - "Did you knowm Flight XYZ was cancelled yesterday because the Captain refused to fly it. His wife rocked up at the airport 15 mins before departure and, when she was refused at check-in, the captain went home sick!" All of the stories I have heard, including that one, were untrue.
.............How about the Gatwick pilots who refused to share the BA minibus wih the Cabin Crew for a Sunday Bournemouth charter service because a BALPA agreement said they were entitled to a limousing from Guy Salmon? Was this true, or not? We never knew.
For sure, there's the odd militant bit of behaviour. The crew, for example, who were put into a New York motel used by prostitutes to save the company cash and were kept awake all night by the nocturnal noises. Quite rightly, they refused dutty next day as they had not had sufficient rest, but that incident caused quite a storm.
All the little bits of tittle-tattle serve to divide our communities - a situation which serves the management very nicely. "Divide and Conquer" - the old management dictate at BA for years!
All of us must stand shoulder to shoulder and tell Walsh and Broughton exactly where they get off this bus to nowhere. If my £16,500 + Shift Pay (giving me just over £20K) is cut, then personally it doesn't bother me in the slightest whether British Airways survives or not, apart from losing my rather pathetic pension and a small shareholding. Indeed, if my salary is frozen for another year, I shall have to seek an alternative career! Maybe this is what our esteemed leadership team have in mind?
I refuse to be drawn into bashing staff from other departments or listening to bad-mouthing of others. I take people as I find them and I have always enjoyed good relations with Flight Crews and Cabin Crew alike. Equally, I am happy to share rest facilities with the Ramp Staff. All of us pull together for BA and we are all thoroughly pi55ed off with Willie for attempting to pull us all down!
..........A fine reward for our help in turning T5 around don't you think?
I have heard some outlandish tales about pilots over the years - "Did you knowm Flight XYZ was cancelled yesterday because the Captain refused to fly it. His wife rocked up at the airport 15 mins before departure and, when she was refused at check-in, the captain went home sick!" All of the stories I have heard, including that one, were untrue.
.............How about the Gatwick pilots who refused to share the BA minibus wih the Cabin Crew for a Sunday Bournemouth charter service because a BALPA agreement said they were entitled to a limousing from Guy Salmon? Was this true, or not? We never knew.
For sure, there's the odd militant bit of behaviour. The crew, for example, who were put into a New York motel used by prostitutes to save the company cash and were kept awake all night by the nocturnal noises. Quite rightly, they refused dutty next day as they had not had sufficient rest, but that incident caused quite a storm.
All the little bits of tittle-tattle serve to divide our communities - a situation which serves the management very nicely. "Divide and Conquer" - the old management dictate at BA for years!
All of us must stand shoulder to shoulder and tell Walsh and Broughton exactly where they get off this bus to nowhere. If my £16,500 + Shift Pay (giving me just over £20K) is cut, then personally it doesn't bother me in the slightest whether British Airways survives or not, apart from losing my rather pathetic pension and a small shareholding. Indeed, if my salary is frozen for another year, I shall have to seek an alternative career! Maybe this is what our esteemed leadership team have in mind?
I refuse to be drawn into bashing staff from other departments or listening to bad-mouthing of others. I take people as I find them and I have always enjoyed good relations with Flight Crews and Cabin Crew alike. Equally, I am happy to share rest facilities with the Ramp Staff. All of us pull together for BA and we are all thoroughly pi55ed off with Willie for attempting to pull us all down!
..........A fine reward for our help in turning T5 around don't you think?
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It's also amazing how well the crew and BASSA manage to keep so many of these unbelievable incidents quiet.
A few posts ago we see a BA ground staff member convinced all "restrictive practices" stopped with the move to T5 and now a BA captain unaware of the famous (or so I thought) Denver diversion.
My two personal favourites (happened to me and not rumour) was following a bomb evacuation of Terminal 4 three years ago we arrived in Copenhagen to have the CSD insist on 18 hours off. It's not as if the operation had suffered enough already was it? Why not cause a bit more chaos and cancel the next day's flight aswell.
How about a diversion due fog in Islamabad, Return flight cancelled because of the 30 hours in 3 days rule (???!!!), would have been 30h 20 mins and BASSA said no alleviation.
Return flight via Dubai to change cabin crew, we did both sectors!!!
Restrictive practices are alive and well at fortress LHR and are the whole reason for this "assault" on terms and conditions.
If the operation was well paid and efficient or low paid and inefficient the assault may not have happened, alas LHR is expensive AND inefficient.
Something has to give.
Perhaps a few more examples of waste and inefficiency would help peoples' understanding........
Edited to add.. just seen the above post and yes lots of stories are untrue or do infact have a valid reason, many however do not, take the 18 hour rule for example,(shorthaul industrial rule) crew will more often than not take the full 18 hours rest, not because they need 18 hours sleep but because they believe "use it or lose it".
BASSA's own proposal has valued the disruption agreement at £60 million, they are thus admitting that they think crew agreements cost the company on average £60 million each year!!! If they didn't then it wouldn't be a saving would it???
A few posts ago we see a BA ground staff member convinced all "restrictive practices" stopped with the move to T5 and now a BA captain unaware of the famous (or so I thought) Denver diversion.
My two personal favourites (happened to me and not rumour) was following a bomb evacuation of Terminal 4 three years ago we arrived in Copenhagen to have the CSD insist on 18 hours off. It's not as if the operation had suffered enough already was it? Why not cause a bit more chaos and cancel the next day's flight aswell.
How about a diversion due fog in Islamabad, Return flight cancelled because of the 30 hours in 3 days rule (???!!!), would have been 30h 20 mins and BASSA said no alleviation.
Return flight via Dubai to change cabin crew, we did both sectors!!!
Restrictive practices are alive and well at fortress LHR and are the whole reason for this "assault" on terms and conditions.
If the operation was well paid and efficient or low paid and inefficient the assault may not have happened, alas LHR is expensive AND inefficient.
Something has to give.
Perhaps a few more examples of waste and inefficiency would help peoples' understanding........
Edited to add.. just seen the above post and yes lots of stories are untrue or do infact have a valid reason, many however do not, take the 18 hour rule for example,(shorthaul industrial rule) crew will more often than not take the full 18 hours rest, not because they need 18 hours sleep but because they believe "use it or lose it".
BASSA's own proposal has valued the disruption agreement at £60 million, they are thus admitting that they think crew agreements cost the company on average £60 million each year!!! If they didn't then it wouldn't be a saving would it???
Last edited by plodding along; 12th Jul 2009 at 16:50.
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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This may be worth a read. It explains the process of contract termination and the implications.
I-resign.com - Community - Dismissal for SOSR - Some Other Substatial Reason
In summary, if you're presented with a new contract using the "SOSR" argument and fail to sign it, your employment will be terminated at the end of the notice period. It's automatic.
Can you be sure that every one of the 14000 BASSA members won't sign a new contract if it's presented? Some of them may want to keep their jobs....
I-resign.com - Community - Dismissal for SOSR - Some Other Substatial Reason
In summary, if you're presented with a new contract using the "SOSR" argument and fail to sign it, your employment will be terminated at the end of the notice period. It's automatic.
Can you be sure that every one of the 14000 BASSA members won't sign a new contract if it's presented? Some of them may want to keep their jobs....
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Bealine,
I feel sorry for you. You are, sadly, misinformed. Mind you, you have had the opportunity, but have merely "skimmed" the previous posts. Apart from the odd rant, most paint the picture the way it is, with numerous examples to back it up.
Whilst it is a nice idea to think that your union can just thump the table, and refuse to budge an inch (although, bizarrely, it is only the CC section of Unite that appear to be doing this, the rest having accepted the economic realities of life in 2009 - not 1971), it is not workable. I think that point was proven a long time ago; something to do with the miners and Maggie (I'm not going to take sides there BTW). The simple fact is that if BA do not change, then they will go under. If BA are bluffing, then, I'm sure you can claim back all your perks (sorry the CC's, not yours), because, no doubt BA will be desperate to have them back. That is how a market economy works.
I joined BA over ten years ago. They paid for my pilot training, and then gave me job. Now I fly with people who have a £100,000 debt, because that's what it cost them to become a pilot. If they are unfortunate enough to end up at Ryanair they have to pay for their own uniform, application, and work the first 6 months effectively for nothing. I'm not happy about it, but, I guess that's the market. If people are willing to do it, then there's not much I can do about it. Or maybe I should write to BASSA!
You don't seem to think that BASSA have any restrictive practices. Well, again, please read the thread, not skim it. There are numerous examples, the most obvious, being the snow disruption this year. If BASSA merely moved into the 21st century, and got rid of their "down tools, we're not budging an inch" negotiating stance, they probably would have delivered their cost-savings targets. Sadly, for most CC, they didn't, and the 30th June deadline has now passed.
I feel sorry for you. You are, sadly, misinformed. Mind you, you have had the opportunity, but have merely "skimmed" the previous posts. Apart from the odd rant, most paint the picture the way it is, with numerous examples to back it up.
Whilst it is a nice idea to think that your union can just thump the table, and refuse to budge an inch (although, bizarrely, it is only the CC section of Unite that appear to be doing this, the rest having accepted the economic realities of life in 2009 - not 1971), it is not workable. I think that point was proven a long time ago; something to do with the miners and Maggie (I'm not going to take sides there BTW). The simple fact is that if BA do not change, then they will go under. If BA are bluffing, then, I'm sure you can claim back all your perks (sorry the CC's, not yours), because, no doubt BA will be desperate to have them back. That is how a market economy works.
I joined BA over ten years ago. They paid for my pilot training, and then gave me job. Now I fly with people who have a £100,000 debt, because that's what it cost them to become a pilot. If they are unfortunate enough to end up at Ryanair they have to pay for their own uniform, application, and work the first 6 months effectively for nothing. I'm not happy about it, but, I guess that's the market. If people are willing to do it, then there's not much I can do about it. Or maybe I should write to BASSA!
You don't seem to think that BASSA have any restrictive practices. Well, again, please read the thread, not skim it. There are numerous examples, the most obvious, being the snow disruption this year. If BASSA merely moved into the 21st century, and got rid of their "down tools, we're not budging an inch" negotiating stance, they probably would have delivered their cost-savings targets. Sadly, for most CC, they didn't, and the 30th June deadline has now passed.
bealine
Sorry but the DEN story is no urban myth, it really did happen.
Over the years the BASSA Reps have gained an immense amount of control over the routine, day to day operation of Cabin Crew Ops. When things go adrift out of LHR, perhaps due to bad weather or aircraft tech problems, as the aircraft Commander you've not just got to be aware of the Flight Crew "CAA" limits, you have to be aware of the Cabin Crew Industrial, (not legal) limits. I'm not saying it's that difficult but it's frankly annoying on occasions, especially when you are working with on-side Cabin Crew (i.e. the majority) who want to get the customers on their way but feel constrained by what will be said to them by the Union and the sanctions the union will alledgedly apply to them.
Over the years the BASSA Reps have gained an immense amount of control over the routine, day to day operation of Cabin Crew Ops. When things go adrift out of LHR, perhaps due to bad weather or aircraft tech problems, as the aircraft Commander you've not just got to be aware of the Flight Crew "CAA" limits, you have to be aware of the Cabin Crew Industrial, (not legal) limits. I'm not saying it's that difficult but it's frankly annoying on occasions, especially when you are working with on-side Cabin Crew (i.e. the majority) who want to get the customers on their way but feel constrained by what will be said to them by the Union and the sanctions the union will alledgedly apply to them.
Last edited by wiggy; 11th Jul 2009 at 21:30.