British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations
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glamgirl,you seem to take a very subserviante view of your role within in flight cabin services.of course agreed manning levels can be perceived as contractual.the judge will submit his or her views on this in february.why do you think that your role has no value in law ?? do you have such a low opinion of your value or status within the operation.established practice has great standing in legal cases,i do not see how the current agreement can be viewed as anything other than established and agreed practice.ask any barister for their opinion,i think you will be enlighened !!
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Bermudatriangle,
I've never said I'm subserviant nor have I said I have a low opinion on my value. I don't know where you get that from, but that's not the issue here. All I was doing, was pointing out that strictly speaking, crew levels aren't included in each crew member's individual contract. Some people's wording on this matter insinuates that it is, and I wanted to clarify matters. Current agreements may well be viewed as established and agreed practice, however it doesn't mean it forms part of each individual's contract. If you look through comms from management, you'll see that this is what they are saying.
Gg
glamgirl,you seem to take a very subserviante view of your role within in flight cabin services.of course agreed manning levels can be perceived as contractual.the judge will submit his or her views on this in february.why do you think that your role has no value in law ?? do you have such a low opinion of your value or status within the operation.established practice has great standing in legal cases,i do not see how the current agreement can be viewed as anything other than established and agreed practice.ask any barister for their opinion,i think you will be enlighened !!
I've never said I'm subserviant nor have I said I have a low opinion on my value. I don't know where you get that from, but that's not the issue here. All I was doing, was pointing out that strictly speaking, crew levels aren't included in each crew member's individual contract. Some people's wording on this matter insinuates that it is, and I wanted to clarify matters. Current agreements may well be viewed as established and agreed practice, however it doesn't mean it forms part of each individual's contract. If you look through comms from management, you'll see that this is what they are saying.
Gg
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In any industry where an employee has a contract of employment and staff numbers are reduced the remaining employees take on more work within the work hours they are employed for.
The amount of crew on an aircraft is really no different to the number of people working in an office (as long as CAA regulations are adhered to). Contracts do not state how many people are to work with you. I am married to a former cabin crew member and I have just examined the BA cabin crew contract and no where does it state how many crew they will work with.
When people are made redundant so the numbers of workers are reduced this does not constitute a change of contract for all remaining workers. If it did so the courts would be full of cases of unions claiming a breach of contract during every recession.
I fear BASSA are clutching at straws - I also understood they were taking the case to court on the grounds of Health an Safety - or was that just rumour?
I would still like BASSA to say what they expect will happen if and when they take IA - clearly BA will not shift on the need to make savings.
The amount of crew on an aircraft is really no different to the number of people working in an office (as long as CAA regulations are adhered to). Contracts do not state how many people are to work with you. I am married to a former cabin crew member and I have just examined the BA cabin crew contract and no where does it state how many crew they will work with.
When people are made redundant so the numbers of workers are reduced this does not constitute a change of contract for all remaining workers. If it did so the courts would be full of cases of unions claiming a breach of contract during every recession.
I fear BASSA are clutching at straws - I also understood they were taking the case to court on the grounds of Health an Safety - or was that just rumour?
I would still like BASSA to say what they expect will happen if and when they take IA - clearly BA will not shift on the need to make savings.
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For the avoidance of doubt
This is the actual wording from the CC contract and for those of you who question whether BA Cabin Crew and BASSA have a case in February please pay close attention to the highlighted bold text - BA by their imposition are certainly in breach of contract as they have broken a clearly stated agreement.....
Collective Agreements
You are referred to the Air Cabin Crew National sectional Panel Agreement and the Scheduling Agreement for full details of terms and conditions relating to you hours of work, entitlement to holidays and holiday pay, absence due to sickness and sick pay.
These Agreements together with the Collective Agreements between the Company and the Trade Unions (all known as the Collective Agreements) and the Employment guide contain the terms and conditions of employment as far as applicable to you and as amended from time to time.
The Collective Agreements and the Employment Guide are incorporated where appropriate into your contract of employment save as varied by this document.
By their imposition of reduced crewing levels BA have broken the WW Agreement - as for EF - I don't think you guys have much of a case as crewing levels where never incorporated into EF agreements unlike WW
Collective Agreements
You are referred to the Air Cabin Crew National sectional Panel Agreement and the Scheduling Agreement for full details of terms and conditions relating to you hours of work, entitlement to holidays and holiday pay, absence due to sickness and sick pay.
These Agreements together with the Collective Agreements between the Company and the Trade Unions (all known as the Collective Agreements) and the Employment guide contain the terms and conditions of employment as far as applicable to you and as amended from time to time.
The Collective Agreements and the Employment Guide are incorporated where appropriate into your contract of employment save as varied by this document.
By their imposition of reduced crewing levels BA have broken the WW Agreement - as for EF - I don't think you guys have much of a case as crewing levels where never incorporated into EF agreements unlike WW
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KitKat747
Unfortunately your assumption is incorrect as the Cabin Crew contract clearly directs you to the Collective Agreements which form part of the contract of employment - it is these Agreements which have been broken by BA
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It is refreshing to have people like Lurker willing to engage in debate - thanks for your contribution.
You appear to have forgotten to highlight "...and as ammended from time to time."
You appear to have forgotten to highlight "...and as ammended from time to time."
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as far as applicable to you and as amended from time to time.
The Collective Agreements and the Employment Guide are incorporated where appropriate into your contract of employment
The Collective Agreements and the Employment Guide are incorporated where appropriate into your contract of employment
Gg
I know I keep repeating myself and sounding like a nag, but could you please give me some kind of response to my question 3 as posted to you yesterday? Thanks.
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Glamgirl
I don't understand your last post? The Collective Agreements form part of our contract of employment - the where appropriate part is to do with which fleet you are working on i.e. it would not be appropriate to try to use the WW agreement on EF and vice versa 
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But if BA can show in court that BASSA have been unwilling to engage in meaningful negotiations (walking out of meetings, refusing to sit in the room with other union reps, failing to attend meetings - maybe be all just rumour I know) this would seriously undermine BASSA position. The court will rule that the management have the right to manage.
Off to bed now!
Off to bed now!
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Again, I know I sound pedantic, but...
It doesn't actually say that though, does it? (The underlined part of the above). Is this your interpretation, or is this written somewhere? I certainly haven't seen it...
Gg
I don't understand your last post? The Collective Agreements form part of our contract of employment - the where appropriate part is to do with which fleet you are working on i.e. it would not be appropriate to try to use the WW agreement on EF and vice versa
Gg
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Glamgirl
Details are important so here you go:-
A "collective agreement" is defined by TULRCA 1992 s.178(1)) as "any agreement or arrangement made by or on behalf of one or more trade unions and one or more employers or employers' associations and relating to one or more" of the seven matters specified in TULRCA 1992, s.178(2).
And
The European Court of Human Rights ruled in November 2008 that contrary to previous rulings on the effect of Article 11 of the European Convention on Human Rights (right to form and to join a trade union), the right to bargain collectively should be regarded nowadays as one of the essential elements inherent in the right to form trade unions.
And I thank you.....
A "collective agreement" is defined by TULRCA 1992 s.178(1)) as "any agreement or arrangement made by or on behalf of one or more trade unions and one or more employers or employers' associations and relating to one or more" of the seven matters specified in TULRCA 1992, s.178(2).
And
The European Court of Human Rights ruled in November 2008 that contrary to previous rulings on the effect of Article 11 of the European Convention on Human Rights (right to form and to join a trade union), the right to bargain collectively should be regarded nowadays as one of the essential elements inherent in the right to form trade unions.
And I thank you.....
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Glamgirl
I don't know what else to say except it is there in black and white - what part don't you understand as being appropriate (or inappropriate!)
We have clear agreements with BA on how we operate on both WW and EF - these are called Collective Agreements - BA have broken these agreements which in turn form part of the CC contract of employment, whichever way you want to look at it or dress it up
We have clear agreements with BA on how we operate on both WW and EF - these are called Collective Agreements - BA have broken these agreements which in turn form part of the CC contract of employment, whichever way you want to look at it or dress it up
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A Lurker,
If you read my last couple of posts again, your comment doesn't actually answer my questions...
Oh, and you missed out this bit from your last post (from the same website you found the above):
Gg
Details are important so here you go:-
A "collective agreement" is defined by TULRCA 1992 s.178(1)) as "any agreement or arrangement made by or on behalf of one or more trade unions and one or more employers or employers' associations and relating to one or more" of the seven matters specified in TULRCA 1992, s.178(2).
And
The European Court of Human Rights ruled in November 2008 that contrary to previous rulings on the effect of Article 11 of the European Convention on Human Rights (right to form and to join a trade union), the right to bargain collectively should be regarded nowadays as one of the essential elements inherent in the right to form trade unions.
And I thank you.....
A "collective agreement" is defined by TULRCA 1992 s.178(1)) as "any agreement or arrangement made by or on behalf of one or more trade unions and one or more employers or employers' associations and relating to one or more" of the seven matters specified in TULRCA 1992, s.178(2).
And
The European Court of Human Rights ruled in November 2008 that contrary to previous rulings on the effect of Article 11 of the European Convention on Human Rights (right to form and to join a trade union), the right to bargain collectively should be regarded nowadays as one of the essential elements inherent in the right to form trade unions.
And I thank you.....
Oh, and you missed out this bit from your last post (from the same website you found the above):
In UK law, whether the terms of a collective agreement are binding as between a particular employer and a particular employee depends on the individual's contract of employment and on whether the term in question is "apt for incorporation" into individual contracts
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Yes but Glamgirl
We do not have individual contracts - we have collective.....oh forget this, you quite clearly cannot see what I am saying even though I have produced for you the actual wording of a contract plus the actual legal definition of collective agreements.......
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What I am trying to do here, is make you (and anybody else for that matter) realise how water tight any case against BA has to be. That's why I mentioned details and may appear pedantic about this. A general definition is all well and good, but even two words can make a lot of difference, as can lack of a couple of words. How each individual interprets it, is highly variable.
We do actually have an individual contract with BA. We signed it before we started flying. There may be collective agreements as well, but what (in my opinion) BA are getting at regarding the crew levels, is that it doesn't go against each crew member's individual contract.
Hope this clarifies somewhat as to what I mean. You obviously don't have to agree with any of it, that's your perogative.
Gg
Any other questions you'd like to answer?
We do actually have an individual contract with BA. We signed it before we started flying. There may be collective agreements as well, but what (in my opinion) BA are getting at regarding the crew levels, is that it doesn't go against each crew member's individual contract.
Hope this clarifies somewhat as to what I mean. You obviously don't have to agree with any of it, that's your perogative.
Gg
Any other questions you'd like to answer?
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Thought I'd add this as well:
Taken from: Disclaw Publishing - Employment Law, unfair dismissal, redundancy pay
Gg
179.
Whether agreement intended to be a legally enforceable contract.
— (1) A collective agreement shall be conclusively presumed not to have been intended by the parties to be a legally enforceable contract unless the agreement—
(a)
is in writing, and
(b)
contains a provision which (however expressed) states that the parties intend that the agreement shall be a legally enforceable contract.
(2) A collective agreement which does satisfy those conditions shall be conclusively presumed to have been intended by the parties to be a legally enforceable contract.
(3) If a collective agreement is in writing and contains a provision which (however expressed) states that the parties intend that one or more parts of the agreement specified in that provision, but not the whole of the agreement, shall be a legally enforceable contract, then—
(a)
the specified part or parts shall be conclusively presumed to have been intended by the parties to be a legally enforceable contract, and
(b)
the remainder of the agreement shall be conclusively presumed not to have been intended by the parties to be such a contract.
(4) A part of a collective agreement which by virtue of subsection (3)(b) is not a legally enforceable contract may be referred to for the purpose of interpretating a party of the agreement which is such a contract.
Whether agreement intended to be a legally enforceable contract.
— (1) A collective agreement shall be conclusively presumed not to have been intended by the parties to be a legally enforceable contract unless the agreement—
(a)
is in writing, and
(b)
contains a provision which (however expressed) states that the parties intend that the agreement shall be a legally enforceable contract.
(2) A collective agreement which does satisfy those conditions shall be conclusively presumed to have been intended by the parties to be a legally enforceable contract.
(3) If a collective agreement is in writing and contains a provision which (however expressed) states that the parties intend that one or more parts of the agreement specified in that provision, but not the whole of the agreement, shall be a legally enforceable contract, then—
(a)
the specified part or parts shall be conclusively presumed to have been intended by the parties to be a legally enforceable contract, and
(b)
the remainder of the agreement shall be conclusively presumed not to have been intended by the parties to be such a contract.
(4) A part of a collective agreement which by virtue of subsection (3)(b) is not a legally enforceable contract may be referred to for the purpose of interpretating a party of the agreement which is such a contract.
Taken from: Disclaw Publishing - Employment Law, unfair dismissal, redundancy pay
Gg