Virgin Blue EBA

[ccguy]

You really don't listen do you crewbus. I DON'T need help with my decision, I am capable and smart enough to make that part up on my own. Like everyone else, and I am assuming you also, as you too have questions for the roadshows, I am seeking clarification on the understanding and meaning behind parts of the EBA that I am not sure about. If the reason that you are on this forum is to belittle people and make rediculous statements then perhaps you are on the wrong forum. I am all for people discussing the EBA, it helps to gain a better understanding, and I am sorry if I missread or missinterpreted a section of the EBA. Heck, I am only human. THe last time I looked we were all working for the same company and shouldnt we be working together to get this thing sorted out rather than taking silly and worthless pot shots at people. Make peace not war crewbus. Remember, you still have to work with everyone who is effected by the EBA.

[crewbus]

Hi ccguy

Will not get into a slaying match on this forum or anywhere else for that matter. Check your PMs

[keeponsmiling]

well having read more of the new proposed EBA - I have to say I am slightly confused with a few things...

Does anyone know whether home standby and optional days are the same thing? I have a bad feeling they are not, and due to this I can imagine optional days will be hard to come by. They work out to be more than what we would be getting paid on an available day however I really wonder how many of these would be placed on our 28 day roster!!! I would say 1 or 2 if we are really lucky! I would imagine there would be more home standby days but the sad thing is we will not be getting paid for them (correct me if I am wrong please). How crazy!!!!!!!!!!!!! On top of not getting paid for them we can be on call for up to 18 hours! So you basically waste an entire day cooped up inside your house and then get called out on the 12th hour to do a duty and get no extra pay for it! Number 1 - they think they are giving us the pleasure of relaxing at home - Number 2 - you can't venture 5 metres out the front door for 18 hours just in case your phone rings! Number 3 -your span of hours can change at any time.
I really just don't understand - I thought that our lifestyle wouldn't be compromised at all, but if they can change them at anytime how are you meant to plan or have a lifestyle!!! I could be reading the whole thing wrong, but it is very concerning to me (amongst many other things in this EBA). It's all very fluffy and a bit difficult to read. It looks to me like crewing are going to have nervous breakdowns with all the changing to rosters to fit in with all this new overtime, over fatigue time etc etc etc. I'm pretty sure I know how I will be voting at the moment

I can't believe the only way you can earn extra money is by these optional days (which I can already bet we won't get many on our roster, and if we do have them we won't be called out), or elect to work on your days off!! Umm we kind of need these days off to rest. I personally like the available days the way they are

[crewbus]

You are reading correctly Keeponsmiling.

OPT days are different to Standbys at home.

And OPT days will only be used after Airport standby, Standby at homes, reassignables have all been utlised.

Its a big concern for me too.

[737NG_Girl]

Just watched the EBA dvd... nice to see both the "give" and "take" sides of things fairly represented

"Take" includes:
- Min rest at home reduced to 12 hours, or 10 by your choice (gaurenteed bid option for 12 months of 15 hours rest at home - I still see this reduction of rest as a backwards step in conditions)
- First year f/a's recieve only 15 days personal leave instead of current 20
- Potential introduction of fixed term cabin crew (a'la Qantas Strikebreakers on 3 month contracts)
- 3 hours notice now required when calling in sick, instead of current 2 horus
- No crew meals (some may see this as a benefit but not me!); and meal allowances ARE NOT paid on day trips (some crew think they are)
- As per section 5.1.5(b) if you take sick leave over your uncertified days, and don't provide med cert etc within 7 days of returning to work, you will NOT be paid for the time off, AND your sick leave accrual gets deducted!!
- Have to pay for own passports and any visas the company requires us to have
- Temporary base transfers with no clear info regarding accomodation and allowances during the transfer
- Clause 2.2.7 allows VB to introduce pairings outside (longer than) the duty limits set, provided FAAA approves (SYD-PER or BNE-PER returns, anyone )
- Clause 2.2.3 allows VB to makes changes to the EBA in consultation with the FAAA in regards to Embraer introduction
- Clause 3.3.3 says "you may be REQUIRED" to act up, as opposed to now where we can say No
- Casual Cabin Crew to get paid more per hour than CS's
- Optional days ARE NOT the new "Available Days". There IS still home standby, for which you DO NOT get paid on a callout.
- Overtime paid now when you extend past 10.5 hours instead of current 9 hours.
- Clause 4.2.9 (iv) Overtime NOT paid when you work on an optional day or day off
- We now get 12 weeks paid maternity leave at half rate on full salary - although the rumours said it was going to be 12 weeks at full pay (galley gossip I guess) but the bit that my b/f is pissed about is if he takes paternity leave, its paid only on his BASE salary - not including annualised allowances
- Introduction of full standby rosters
- Clause 6.4.4(d) Non-credit training days ( ) limited to 9 hours, but that does not include time spent positioning to undertake such duties eg you could pax to BNE for training, have 9 hours there, then pax back
- I wont even begin to talk about Operations Tables 1 & 2
- Clause 6.5.5 You can agree to work 2 hours beyond the limitations set out in Operations Table 2 ("Hi, Sandy, yeah its crewing here... No pressure hon but the flights are going to be cancelled if you dont agree... yeah I know you have already operated 12 hours, but its just one more sector, think of all hugs and gratitude you will get from the pax for agreeing")
- Yes the limits on the numbers of earlies etc sounds good, until you read Clauses 6.7.2 which pretty much allows you to do 5 in a row anyway - provided certain conditions are met - but its really not too different to what we have now!
- Clause 6.10(f) We can agree to have rostered days off downroute??
- Clause 6.15(b) Home standby does not have to have an indicated time! You can be told up to the day before!!!
- Clause 6.15(o) If you have a single standby then a trip starting after, you can be forcibly displaced from the trip and put onto an overnight. Currently, if you have a single standby day, you can only be put onto an overnight trip by agreement.
- Clause 6.15(t) Operations Table 2 applies when you are on home standby - ie you can work longer (up to 13 1/2 hours) than a standard rostered duty - plus 2 hours extension by agreement!
- Clause 6.17(h) Airport standby can be extended WHILST you are on standby!!!
- Operations table 2 also applies to Airport Reserve, calculated from the time you signed on for airport
- Clause 6.27(g & h) Split duties with rest of 5 hours or less can have that rest taken ON THE AIRCRAFT! Mmm... I know I will be feeling fresh as a daisy after 5 hours resting on the aircraft

Sorry if thats a bit detailed, but so many CS's are telling me to vote no - I wanted to decide for myself - which, I now have. I know MEL is a younger base, but I will be encouraging other crew to actually read this and understand the profound effects its going to have. I was not here for the last EBA vote, but apparently it got pretty bitchy from what I have been told!

I heard on my last trip that the cost of the salary increases costs less than the savings they made when they took a crewmember off the -800 ( ), so I did some calculations myself - and yes, its true.

Yes it is good with more part time slots, I want to have kids soon so thats a positive.

The CS gainshare does not inspire me to want to become CS. 2 % of base salary? They should get paid a fair bit more than crew...

Rant over

Vote NO.

[up in the clouds]

I'd like to know what on earth has happened to 'FULL TIME' employment??? As in what a majority of us are employed as. And what you signed a contract to be employed as when you first started.

The new EBA has no category anywhere for 'FULL TIME' employees (3.14 - TYPES OF EMPLOYMENT) yet referes to full time in many different clauses.



Maybe they will endeavour to employee us full time

Also FAQ section on FAAA website http://www.faaadomestic.org.au/upload/867-1.doc
Haven't read it but looks interesting

[sinala1]

So, going by the FAAA document posted above, and quoted below:

Your roster was built to 133hrs and your final trip in the roster is a 35hr multi day trip. Earlier in the roster, delays totalled 6.5hrs and you agreed to work a further 1.5hrs above the single duty maximum – total 8hrs above your planned 133hrs. Your final trip has not been operated but your total hours actually performed before commencing this trip is 106hrs. 106hrs + the 35hr trip is projected to go above 140. You decide that you no longer wish to do the trip and you ring crewing the day before. You will become reassignable for the hours of the trip. Crewing will try to provide you with a replacement duty(ies) which is projected to reach your 130hrs and total under 140hrs. This may be in the form of single day duties or a replacement multi day trip. Should the replacement duty worked take you over 130hrs, then you will be paid roster overtime for all hours worked over 130. Should the replacement duty take your roster total to 130hrs or less, then you will be paid daily overtime for any duties in your roster which were greater than 10hrs:30mins

If I have worked say 5 12 hour days in my roster, which should equal 7.5 hours overtime, but my worked hours for that roster end up being 131 - Will I only get paid 1 hour overtime instead of 7.5??? Milbud are you able to provide clarification on this?

55. How are duty credit hours calculated for the roster build?
Approved leave credits calculated 130hrs ÷ 28 days = 4.6428hrs = 4hrs:38mins.
Standby credits calculated: 130hrs ÷ 18 possible work days = 7.2222hrs = 7hrs:13mins.
Performance monitoring: 5hrs per roster (pro rated with annual leave)

Why are Approved Leave (I am presuming this includes personal/sick leave) credits based on 28 days (particularly in reference to Sick leave, not annual leave)? Sick leave can still only be taken on a possible 18 work days - so sick leave credits should be 7hours 13mins

71. Can a single duty turn into a split duty?
Yes, although any additional unplanned hours must take all fatigue avoidance limitations and work rules into account for this to occur.

Up In The Clouds you are right - I can't believe I missed that - there is no reference to full time employees in that section!

737NG-Girl I hope everyone is taking as much time as you obviously have in reading this document and getting a full understanding of it. I too have come across crew who are under the misapprehension that meal allowances will be paid on day trips, which is not the case

Example 2:
S-on 0630 BNE-ADL 5hrs rest 1530 ADL-BNE S-off 1830
Planned total length sign-on to sign-off: 12hours
Duty limit maximum: 0630 s-on band, 2 sectors 12:30 + half 5hrs rest = 15:00
For the purposes of this example, let’s say planned duty time = actual duty time 12hrs.
Fatigue avoidance hours: 12hrs
Min rest following: 12hrs
Duty credit hours: 12hrs = rest 5hrs @1:1 because no accommodation
Overtime: 1.5hrs daily overtime payable if total roster 130hrs or less*
Allowances: Nil because same calendar day

Ignoring the other stuff about split duties for now, you can see that allowances are not paid on the same calender day for a single duty that does not include a layover.

[Sonique]

Scream and fight until the 'fixed term employment ' term is taken out of your EBA. That is your BIGGEST issue.

Don't let yourselves become like Qantas. Where casuals and contracters rule.

Allow only full-time employment.

Good Luck guys, your colleagues in other airlines are behind you 100%.

[Brisvegasboy]

The feeling on line.....

Well, well, well.....

The proverbial has hit/is about to hit the fan I feel. Just back from a three day trip and it was incredibly interesting chatting with my own crew and crew on turnarounds. Except for very few, the general feeling is one of 'we have looked/are in the process of looking at the document and we don't like what we see'.

I am yet to find some time (today at some point, I hope) to sit down and really look at the nitty gritty, but from what I already know:

Overtime paid on 10.5 hours and above as opposed to 9 hours now (NO THANKS)
My friend, an Ad Hoc, has to work more hours for less money (in most cases)
The whole allowances issue

......and I am yet to digest it properly!!

One of my crew members ran some allowances scenarios and found there was def no average of $115. Yes, it may increase slightly, however, we should have received an overnight increase anyway AND NOW we are getting no crew meals (I think most guys would have eaten them anyway, but that is beside the point)

I will get back in here after some detailed study......

VOTE NO - I know it is certainly not something I will be sticking around for!!

Cheers,

bvb

[crewbus]

Hi guys

Like I have said previously, I think it would be ridiculous to vote for the first thing that is offered to us, no matter how much the union says we should vote for it. Of course they are going to say that, they have been the ones negotiating. It would look pretty bad if they turned around to us and said 'dont vote for it' as our confidence in the them (if there is any left) will be pretty much gone!

As DR said in the Dvd, if it is voted no, we will continue under the current EBA and the company will seek to understand why it was voted no.

Another few little points, look at how we all dispise the 1-2 hour waits between flights...imagine the split shifts!

Thanks for pointing out the Types of Employment, massive concern for most of us. One of the benefits of DJ is that we have full time perm positions.

Also, with the company looking at opening a base in Sydney and I suspect ADL also, overnights will become very far and few between. So yes there is a little increase in allowance, but how long for?

Not to mention the no extra for Standby at home! Dont get me started on that again!

What is the general feel out online guys? I havent been at work for the past week...

[lowerlobe]

Obviously your employer has an interest in this EBA being agreed to.

From what i have read the FAAA would also like you to agree to the EBA.

Has the FAAA sent you anything with the pro's and con's of this EBA especially compared to your existing EBA?

If they have not ,then I would suggest a face to face meetings with the FAAA so that they can answer questions directly .This also gives the union an idea of where the crew stand on it.

This way if the majority of crew are not happy with it you can relay that feeling directly to the union or vice versa.

[wirgin blew]

If you have any questions please email the FAAA if you are a member. If you arent then email your DM for the company line or perhaps join or rejoin FAAA if you feel that it is worth it.
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Sinala1 they way I read it you will have 131 duty hours and you would have picked up 7.5 hours as OT 5x12 hour shifts. Now I also think that the last 1 hour would be OT and any subsequent delays or disruptions would also be OT.
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About the training days - 5x9 hour days that dont count towards your overtime hours but your fatigue hours. My thinking is that CRM, EPS, AVMED, SEC and one other per annum so I would imagine any EMB training would be additional to that and would have to count towards the rostered hours.
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Types of employment: it says nothing about full time which is strange but it does say at the start of that section "which inlcude but are not limited to those set out below:"
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Lastly dont forget that some of this mess can be thanked to Mr Howard and his labour laws, something to keep in mind latter this year when you are going to the polls.

[Zig Zag]

Lets Not Go Backwards !!

Hi Guys. This will be my third EBA as C.S with Virgin Blue and they are getting worst as the years go on!! I was here flying on DAY 1 in 2000. I signed the very first EBA. 80% of us had never flown before so we took a chance!! I voted NO on the second one and it still got in!!
As I read thru this proposal I sit and worry about where they are trying to take us!! I'm struggling to find anyhing positive in it!!
I would be happy to have the current one for another year as they negotiate another one.
If we let this one in now God only knows what the future agreements will be like!! Here is our chance to stand up and be counted. United!!
Cut all the Bull****!! Brisbane, Melbourne and lets not forget our Sydney based crew(they have been here as long as anyone) and vote this DOWN!!
The "Man" needs to know how we feel!! If the flight deck got 90% we should aim for 95% voting NO..that would send a clear message!!
MY VOTE WILL BE HEARD !!

[sinala1]

Wirgin Blew:

Should the replacement duty worked take you over 130hrs, then you will be paid roster overtime for all hours worked over 130. Should the replacement duty take your roster total to 130hrs or less, then you will be paid daily overtime for any duties in your roster which were greater than 10hrs:30mins

I personally interpret that as getting paid overtime in one case or the other, ie If total duty hours are below 130 then you get paid any daily overtime for that month (ie duties over 10.5 hours); or if total duty hours go over 130 then you get paid monthly overtime. You only get paid one or the other is the way I read it - I understand one of our colleagues from here has had this clarified, perhaps they are able to post their understanding of it here? Either way, its something that MUST be clarified in the document, and personally I would rather get paid the current overtime rates over 9 hours per day.

[seektofly]

EBA = Extremely Bad Agreement

Rightyo... Let me get this one right...

1. They want to take away our meals onboard (so we all have to bring our own food) - which I am guessing we will be paying for with the $18 Breakfast money, $21 Lunch money and $36 dinner money... ok thats cool but tell me, what replaces the actual overnight allowance??

2. I am guessing we will only be getting the $14.95 for the Darwin red eye, or does that come under the dinner and breakfast bracket in which case we would get $36 + $18 and perhaps the incidental allowance of lets say $15.00 .. Thats a grand total of around $69 instead of the current $92 dollars that we get for doing a red eye ... plus we get fed on that red eye too...

I don't want to do airport reserve in another city. I don't want to be available in a hotel room in another city. Being away from home on overnights is enough for me.

As far as extra maternity leave goes, that isn't going to happen this side of ever for me... so that for me is not an incentive.

Just these points are enough to make me vote no, let alone the part which says that we will be able to have the uninterrupted rest in a parked aircraft somewhere...

Gosh, paint my shirt black with orange stripes and call me Jetstar!


VOTE NO.

[wirgin blew]

seektofly - DRW return is possible from either MEL or BNE as a single crew return trip. The way I read it you will get nothing extra for this trip other than overtime hours over 10.5. It is treated as a day trip as you are not actual using a hotel nor a you staying away from home so you are not entitled to the allowance. I have heard that VB was paying this in breach of the tax office ruling on allowances.
The meals that VB provide are not a requirement as you can bring your own or buy whats off the carts (LOL). Also in the crew meal survey an overwhelming number of respondants said that they would rather bring their own food and the wastage every day supports this.
The allowances have been broken down by the ATO and if you want the link I can pm you so the company is just paying us what the ATO is telling them is ok.
I'm certainly not encouraging you to change your mind about the EBA but we need to focus on what we have control over changing and forget about whats out of our hands.
Now according to operations table 1 page 47 - we can do the DRW return leaving between 1800-2159 as long as it fits in to 11.5 duty hours, if for some reason we are delayed enroute we will be asked to extend to 13.5 (6.5.5). The way I see it people will want to get home as they wont have a change of clothes so then if one person says lets stay in DRW they either get relief crew to do the sector or the whole crew gets an unplanned layover. This to me is just one of many areas that need work on.

[ak3141]

wirgin blew, in relation to the company paying an allowance in breach of the ATO ruling, it depends on how literally you interpret the ruling.

The ruling states that 'the employee must sleep away from home' for travel allowances. When you consider that crew are required to rest away from home before a red eye and sign on after dinner time and then work through the breakfast period, it would be difficult to argue to the Commissioner that crew would not be disadvantaged if they did not receive the overnight allowance.

For those interested, the ATO Tax Determination 2006/43 states that the reasonable amount for meal allowances for salaries under $84,250 is $94.30. The proposed changes for the maximum meal allowance available in the new EBA is $90.68, which is $3.62 less than the amount deemed reasonable by the ATO for the 2006-2007 income year.

We currently receive $91.26 for overnights AND we receive meals on board the aircraft. However, this will change with the new EBA as we will not receive meals on board the aircraft under ANY circumstances

If red eyes were operated as a shuttle, then we would not be able to claim reasonable expenses for meals as we would not have satisfied the requirements of the ruling for travel allowances. Of course, you could argue that this isn't all that different from our current day trips and that you don't even eat the meals on board.

However, when you consider our current conditions and do some simple math, it isn't hard to see how much worse off you would be under the new EBA for a 12 hour duty. Currently we cannot be rostered for a duty that exceeds 9 hours 45 minutes, we get overtime after 9 hours and we get meals on the aircraft.

Based on rough estimates, we would be $83 worse off in this scenario (3 crew meals lost approx. $30, 1.5 hours less overtime approx. $41, time and a half after 10.5 hours instead of double time after 9 hours 45 mins approx. $12). IMHO, a 12 hour duty (2.25 hours longer) without any meals, 1.5 hours less overtime pay and only time and a half instead of the double time we currently receive is NOT a step forward

Are we really better off under the new EBA?

[smile]

The ruling states that 'the employee must sleep away from home' for travel allowances.

If we want to get literal on the working of this- all we need to do is ensure that each crew member get his/her 20 controlled nap and technically we have slept way from home.

Do you think we could claim it twice if we take into account the micro sleeps we all do in the car when driving home??

[qfcabin]

SMILE saido you think we could claim it twice if we take into account the micro sleeps we all do in the car when driving home?
Slightly off topic...but maybe worthy of starting a new one..one day these exhausting drives home after long night sectors will cause a death! Then EBA's may be looked at more seriously by greedy employers.
Sorry for the smiley..it just appeared and I can't seem to remove it..it is NOT intended.

[djvirginblue]

Ok let's just say in a strange set of circumstances the EBA gets approved as the majority votes yes (I hope not) - how legit is this election/voting company?? I am praying that everyone has a thorough look at this document and makes a decision not only for themselves but for the other 1300 cabin crew out there. My vote will be ending with the letter O