Sydney S/H,

Thanks for the explanation ,for a L/H person the different terminology is what throws me the most
I agree that the story is not finished yet but let’s hope there are no nasty surprises..

Interesting though the bit about team leaders and the CSM promotions ..I think it is a bit early to read between the lines though..

The faaa newsletter detailing the changes will be out by christmas though so we should understand things by then..

Quote-

"There is no talk about regional/international flying which is a big surprise. ."

No need as it will ALL [regional] go to geoffstar anyway...................

We carried the other day a woman who purported to be an advisor to CEOs....

She had worked with both Strong and dick'son.

As far as she was concerned her dealings with the viagra driven dwarf left her in NO doubt that he has NO concerns for Qantas or it's fate.

His sole preoccupation was with his baby, which of course is jetstar.

It is desparing to watch one mans disfunctional ego destroy the work of generations of LOYAL employees......

10. I am an ex-longhaul CSM that recently transferred to the shorthaul division. If I choose
to return to longhaul under the one-off return option, will I retain my seniority and
category?
Yes, you will return to the longhaul division as a CSM and go back to the pay point you would
have been on if you had not transferred to the shorthaul division.


as far as i am concerned thats a major breach of the eba as it stops css from getting a chanche to be promoted. what a nice little back stabber from MM

Qcc2

You might be interested to note that the 1st that the Lh division of the FAAA heard of this was on friday. It has not even been discussed with the FAAA Lh and therefore is meaningless unless agreed to by them because what short haul and Qantas have neglected to do is consult the Long Haul Division.

At the end of the day i am not sure what the implications of this are but i am sure we will all have a view and i for one would be interested in what it would actually mean.

your thoughts???

If anyone knows?

Why did the shorthaul FAAA not go after increased allowances in international slip ports?

As far as I can see (and I stand to be corrected), they get their DTA paid in cash on regional trips. Are the shorthaul FAAA not aware that LH crew get DTA (in the form of ODTA or ADTA) plus meal allowances in local currency?

It beggers belief ! Why would they not demand to get the same if not similar meal allowances, particularly in places like NRT where the DTA wouldnt cover lunch, let alone the whole stay!

Even a compromise between having DTA and getting full long haul allowances as well, would save the company dollars from having LH do the flying, so why wasnt it brought up?

Am I missing something (admittedly, I have only recently taken any interest in SH EBAs and all that)

And this new team leader position ! It's a CSS under another name, yet in longhaul the pay rise from going 2nd year FA (which is when you can apply) to 1st year CSS is $14.37 per hour !!! Regardless of aircraft type.


The shorthaul faaa are really selling their members short [no pun intended].

Westozflyer.... why didnt the FAAA go after allowances on the regionals?

Thats a really bloody good question! Umm...might have something to do with the absolute lack of communication with the S/H employees. Maybe if they told us what they actually were negotiating for we could have thrown a few ideas at them.

To be quite honest it's been bull!!!! the lack of communication.

Have we signed off on the regional flying agreement yet???? Can anyone shed some light on this...only been doing regionals for 18mths. Dickheads.

Westoz, unbelievable! you guys really think you got stiffed on your allowances for flying regional - what a joke!

Short Haul got 9% for 3 years (thats if your smart enough to vote for it), for what? An extra 2 hours on your divisor and plenty of part time offerred. Oh yeah the "Team Leader" now replaces the 2nd senior. A name change WITH MORE money. Oh yes you dont get a supper (laughable).Team Leaders arent Long Haul Supervisors. I did not realise all Team Leaders will have only 2 years experience Westoz - what a ridiculous comparison. Long Haul got shafted on the short haul band payments last EBA which probably has something to do with the clause they can go back to LH if they wish. Of course subject to SH having the decency of actually discussing this with Long Haul union as stated by Pegasus. Short Haul FAAA still havent learnt what good manners are nor it seems are they aware that Long Haul FAAA exists.
When short haul contribute the equivalent of a London basing and save the Company 20 mill a year and when you lot offer your Long Service leave to be taken in the interests of the bottom line then you might be worth 9%. If I were you Id stop compalining, as sydney s/h said its a pretty soft EBA!

Heres a worthy EBA suggestion, In the interests of short haul doing their bit for the Company and sustainable future why dont you offer to merge with Jetstar. Maybe QF regional could then cover the current QF domestic routes. Now that would be worth 9%. Then theres no issue with overseas allowances.

The bands issue , a cosy little stitch up if ever there was one.

This gem from FAAA Newsletter to L/H members January 2004.
The last paragraph is particularly reassuring. NOT.


30 January 2004
Attention All Qantas Long Haul Flight Attendants

BANDS PAYMENTS UPDATES

I wish to inform members that in the context of the joint FAAA approach (International and Domestic/Regional Division) to Qantas regarding the allocation of flying between the two Divisions, that I put to the Company that the International Division would press for a review of the arrangements that result in our members (who were employed in the International Division at the date of the certification of Short Haul EBA VI) who transfer to Short Haul being adversely affected by the new Bands arrangements in Short Haul which were introduced in Short Haul EBA VI.

Qantas has written to us in the following terms – “the Company will evaluate the Association’s request in relation to Bands payments. However, it should be noted that any discussions in relation to Bands payments will be subject to the parties successfully reaching agreement in relation to the allocation of flying”.

In the FAAA Branch elections we made a commitment to pursue the Bands payments issue. Andrew Smedley and I, indicated that one of the deficiencies of our EBA VI was that the Bands issue was left unaddressed.

We are pleased that Qantas is now prepared to look at this issue. If the Bands issue cannot be satisfactorily resolved in the context of the current discussions about allocation of flying between Long and Short Haul, it will be pursued as promised in our next EBA negotiations.

Here are some excerpts from FAAA N/letter to Long Haul members dated February 10 2004.
The Italics etc are mine.

Fast forward to 2006 . Crew rest seats are now sold on Trans Tasman and other flights incorporated into TOD's < 6 hours.
On board crew illness no longer occurs on these flights
Extended TOD's due delays no longer an issue .

No need to wait for new EBA negotiations to allow QF to shaft your members .
They Do it now . They Do it often.

10 February 2004 Attention all Qantas Long Haul Flight Attendants


CREW REST SEATS



The provision of crew rest seats is not dependent on a tour of duty exceeding six hours but extends to all flights. There must always remain some crew rest seats solely for crew in order that they may take their rest. Crew who fall ill whilst on duty and unplanned extended tours of duty are just two examples of why the provision of crew rest seats should be available on every flight.

The provision of crew rest seats is a right enjoyed by cabin crew. This right is for crew to be provided with sufficient rest in planned and unplanned circumstances.

. take back my previous post. if the LH divisions wasn't consulted why would sh put it in the eba? they (sh & qf) may be thinking of a back door trying to bring those guys back to lh. qf wouldn't put such things in unless they have a clear plan.
any other thoughts?

yes i totally agree with johanna's sentiments. Crew rest seats should be provided on every flight for the reasons that were outlined in that letter.

Unfortunatley just expressing a view does not assist when a company that has no regard for such issues as crew illness, meal breaks and common decency places profit ahead of all these things.

The commission heard all of those arguements it would seem and decided that on a totally legal interpretation of the clause there is not an entitlement to the seat under tours of duty of six hours.

The more interesting point on the bands pay issue is that whilst Shorts hauls treachery in EBA 6 on bands pay had the effect of lowerig the rate of pay for Long Haul Crew who transfered over it in all practicality can only be dealt with in a short haul EBA rather than a Long Haul one.

I cannot see the majority of Long Haul Crew taking some form of action in Long Haul just to get a pay rise for crew in short haul who used to be in Long Haul, or likewise on the offchance that they may one day wish to transfer to short haul.

If there were sufficient ex long haul crew now in short haul affected by this outreagious sell out by short haul crew in EBA6 they should use their numbers in FAAA elections and at meetings of members to remove from office the officials that did this to them, or run for office and replace them and rectiy the problem.

Personally, the running of thee Short Haul Union for years has been like an old ladys tea party. You get a newsletter a couple of times a year abous scones and jam and that's about it.

The majority of Short Haul Flight Attendants are very unhappy with their union. This is not necessarily because they are ineffective, but because they dont communicate at all. Few meetings if ever, non existant newsletters and officials who are invisible and a President that took the london base and still holds office as the domestic regional President while up there.

I think its time that the FAAA long Haul and Short Haul became one union, with one leadership and council and dealt with all Qantas long haul and Short Haul issues as one body. That would really put the wind up a Qantas Management that loves to divide and conquer.

More importantly with Jetstar International About to start up its more important than ever that our FAAA is united and working together. I suggest that each of us and our colleagues puts pressure on LH and SH officials of the FAAA to rejoin together and make us a proper "union" again.

Its unfortunate that previous officials divided the union and were unable to work together. Its time to put aside the past and look to the future though or the only flight attendants with a future will be Jetstar.

Bands Pay, crew rest and meals etc will pale to insignificance if we cant get our act together pretty soon when Jetstar starts up.

QCC2,

To be honest i have been trying to think of a reason why they would offer this return to LH from SH. Perhaps the only reason would be that in the Short Haul EBA claim i was told that they were trying to get bands pay reinstated to the LH crew that came over.

Clearly if the Agreement reached on Friday is all thats in it, then they were unsuccessful in getting bands pay restores to Ex long Haul crew.

This may be a way of at least trying to offer something to those ex LH crew. That's all very well of course QCC, but a couple of things that stink about that and one of the reasons the short haul officials are such snakes is that they didnt discuss it with LH FAAA ( a rang a senior official as soon as i saw it on friday) at all. Secondly Qantas had not raised it with the FAAA.

As far as ex csms and Css's coming back to Long Haul as CSM's and CSS's or even all the ex long haul coming back it doesnt make sense to me. Firstly i thought we had an excess in long Haul and transferrin a whole lot of crew back would increase that.

Secondly, there is no agreement that would give them their rank back and i am not sure that we want to set that prescedent. Of course there are a whole lot of ex pursers that came to Long HAul years ago. wouldnt it be lovely if they could all go back to SHort HAul as CSM's?????/

I am sure Kylie hasnt thought of that one and if thats the case we should welcome our colleagues back with open arms from Short Haul and send back al the ex pursers back to short haul as CSM's

I just love the thought of the chaos at short haul that would cause !!

I am bad

Hawk Eye

I am a long haul flight attendant, so dont have a go at me over what the shorthaul FAAA and f/a's are doing !


The only reason I have an interest and ask the questions, is as with most of my colleagues in the Perth Long Haul base, I will shortly be forced shorthaul (or pick up my family and move east - which was not an option).

So pull your nails in

You know the sad thing is that the S/H FAAA does NOT represent how the majority of us feel. A small group of numbskulls make us look like arseholes and therefore there is a huge dislike/distrust etc towards the s/h crew by l/h.

Someone else mentioned it in their recent post saying how we are very peeved with the FAAA goons. They are right on the money. And like they said, its the lack of communication. You dont want to even bother seeing the email we get each Friday "the week that was". There's nothing bloody in it!

Bring on the amalgamation of the 2 unions.

WESTOZ
Please re-read your post!
It was you that was having a go about allowances not being part of the SH EBA! You really are too much. Here you are now purporting to be a former Long Haul Perth base f/a and now your suggesting by paying Short Haul more allowances - (Narita) then SHaul would be cheaper than long haul.
So because you have chosen to go to short haul ( yes you did have a choice - there were several offered under the closing of the Perth LH base ) you are all for QF doing away with LH and replacing them with SH regional - "To save the Company Dollars". Of course provided you get paid more in Narita allowances! You are scum!

Is every body reading this! This is what is the problem with Australian QF cabin crew - both SH haul and L haul. Talk about selfish, greedy self interested, treacherous small minded etc i could go on and on.

You should be ashamed West oz. Using your logic "saving the Company dollars", it would have been cheaper to make you redundant rather than the FAAA spending precious time and resources trying to negotiate alternative options to save the likes of you. That would have saved both the Comapny and the FAAA dollars.

It is time as Pegasus and Sydney s/h said that the FAAA should amalgamate with only one leadership representing both divisions. For those who are Long Haul start lobbying your union and same for those who are short haul. Demand a vote by all FAAA members on this issue in the next few months. If we are not one united body then discussions about any of your conditions on here or anywhere else will be pointless. Especially in light of the IR freight train heading our way. Please if you read this then request a vote on this from your FAAA division.

Its about time we started appreciating each other for our professionalism and hard work which has made QF something to be proud of. The endless bitching I see on here is something we should all be ashamed of.
Lets stand united as one union Not two divisions and with One Leadership. Lets stop the infighting and try a completely different approach. Repect and a united front for ALL australian cabin crew!

What's bleedin' obvious to me is that the International division's rhetoric of 2004 ,set out so nobly in the following excerpt from the newsletter of Feb of that year ,has come to nought.
Two years up the track and at a crucial time with Eba negotiations, the two divs still aren't talking to one another , let alone working cohesively.

So just who is not ringing who ?

Whilst QF flying is broadly split amongst the S/H and L/H divisions and the structure of the FAAA broadly reflects the split in interests with 2 different awards and seniority lists we are no hope of achieving a united front .
Each division's elected representative's look after their own bailiwick .

As indeed they must under their current charter.



Now if Qf were to spill the flying and start afresh with a combined workforce of L/H & S/H ,or signal that this was a desirable objective / agenda for them ,then Hawkeye's vision of an amalgamated FAAA leadership representing both divisions would be the perfectly appropriate and indeed essential response to a similar challenge .

But without a combined S/H L/H award what would be the point ?

Entrenched vested interests will be all but impossible to overcome whilst the current playing field remains in force .

This is perfectly illustrated in the hollow rhetoric of "unity and strength" below . GRRRRRRRRR .



10 February 2004
Attention all Qantas Long Haul Flight Attendants






The FAAA is pursuing a proactive approach to solving the deficiencies of EBA6 with a constructive and sensible agenda with the added unity and strength of negotiating jointly with our Short Haul colleagues to maximise the potential for positive outcomes for all our members.

Frank
whats "bleedin obvious" is the current FAAA 2 division system/ structure (Short Haul - Long Haul) does not work. We are technically amalgamated in name only.
MMs so called hollow rhetoric was the first time any official of the FAAA had made a serious public attempt to be pro active in creating a positive relationship between the two divisions and turn a damaged non-existent relationship into a constructive one. Unfortunately you were right in highlighting entrenched self interests. Whilst he did try, selfish attitudes from officials and members on both sides were never going to help make it happen.

Its time to try a different approach not keep our head in the sand and hope it will somehow magically repair itself. Or that the membership might vote up two different sets of representatives that will work together. As Sydney s/h states the majority short haul feel they are not consulted or their interests are not represented.This is referring to their own officials.

Time for a change to the structure as quickly as possible. There is light at the end of the tunnel - unfortunately its in the form of an IR freight train headed straight for us ALL.

While we are busy arguing whether or not we change the structure to redefine and stregthen both Short Haul and Long Haul representation the Company are rubbing their hands together and salivating in hungry anticipation.

Lets just get on with fixing this major problem as soon as possible before our elected representatives get into a forced sell out of each others conditions in order to keep us emplyed. Its called the slippery slide to the bottom. Once it starts theres no way back.

I think what FF seems to illustrate all too well is the anger we feel at the constant undermining of each others conditions.

Whilst i think since the merger of TN/QF in 1992, all flight attendants have wanted one award, but for crew it would not be one that gives Qantas all the best of both and leaves crew with the crappy parts.

Clearly Qantas would not be interested in one award and one division or united union to deal with, however i still believe that we are all Qantas flight attendants and can swap divisions pretty much at will.

And i think that the short haul union is the one that has constantly betrayed the long haul division in their attempts to shore up their own conditions.

It would be very easy for the Long HAul division to undercut shorthaul in an attempt to get more work, and all that would lead to is a response from them further downwards .....a recipe for disaster for crew and a great victory for Qantas.

Clearly, the FAAA working as one and freely exchanging ideas and trusting each other is in the best interest of crew despite the cynicism of many of us.
Personally i dont trust the short haul officials, but as a very wise man once said....You keep your friends close, and your enemies even closer......

I think the LH FAAA for many years including most former and current officials have always acted with integrity in dealing with the Short Haul division and should be commended for it. But we have to keep an eye on them or they will be flying long rang and we will be "operationally restructrured"....

Pegasus747's position that " we are all Qantas flight attendants can swap divisions pretty much at will " is an over simplication at odds with the importance that the bands issue has on free transfer between divisions.


Why would any L/H F/A in their right mind transfer to S/H haul in the knowledge that they have been sold out by the very association that purports to represent them and they are not eligible for the weekend bands payment?
This was a cosy little manouvre between S/H Division and Qf designed to keep as many of the L/'H interlopers as possible out of their division.
Pay 'em less and keep 'em out.
Simple but effective.



It is little wonder that S/H didn't persue the overturning of this disgrace (or as Pegasus747 rightly describes it "this treachery"), during their current EBA as promised.

Why would they commence a fight to restore transfer at equal conditions
on behalf of the L/H F'a's that are disadvantaged by the agreement whilst they themselves are advantaged by its application ?
After all they agreed to it in the first place in their own self interest. Duh !

S/H transferees suffer no disadvantage when transferring to L/H and come across on identical pay and conditions.
To add insult to injury , 2 year old "promises" by M. Mijatov to address the issue on behalf of L/haulers "at the next EBA " are now forgotten and impossible to achieve because the two divisions are once again playing no talkies.

To which EBA was he referring anyway ?

The L/H EBA in December 2007 I suppose ?

It is gross acts of bastardry like the bands payment fiasco and the missed opportunity ,just passed, to rectify it that keeps this association divided and breeds distrust in the executive.

Most F/A's regardless of division have a well developed, built in bull!!!! detector.


Lip service and politically motivated rhetoric are as easy to see thru as Qf's world class spin doctoring.