Butterfield,Bwana
the slipping formula is about managing fatigue. It is amazing that you make statements on how a negotiation occurs or is going to occur before it has! There is currently no major issue with the slipping formula. Fatigue on most trips is within an acceptable level. Should the FAAA negotiate or design a new work allocation system the slipping formula is NOT on the table. If fatigue on any patterns is an issue it should and i imagine would be dealt with as a seperate issue. Eden 99 if you are reading this could you clarify this point for all of us.

Those sorts of comments are what is called scaremongering, designed to undermine any process before it begins. Note folks not a word about his wifes bidding prowess. How does anyone even being half way as you are in seniority or 3000 as your wife is begin to bid with some hope when you take into account D days. Diagnostics are a vary thread bare guide. They tell you what was available to you when you bid. NOT what is available next roster.

Lowerlobe, I agree that we must look at alternatives and all options.I am not saying get rid of seniority in total. I am saying change this work allocation system so it is fair to all.If seniority can be a part of it and the majority agree and vote on it then so be it.
As far as trusting the FAAA officials, how long is a piece of string. you either do trust them or you dont, you either like some of them or you dont.That is the democratic system and fortunately it is open to change every 4 years not 20 like this bid system. Me, I like em.... so far

Good god what a pedantic pain you are HAWKEYE.
My wife gets most of what she wants because people above her in seniority don't know how to bid..like wise CSS senior to me.
The company stopped training initial FAs in the use of the bid system in 1996.
The company only ever printed one how to bid book and that was in 1988.
The biggest impact on available flying comes from Language speakers and the off-shore bases.
Don`t kid yourself that the company wouldn`t put the slip formula on the table.
You must be absolutely naive to believe otherwise.
Details about your alternative please.
I wait with bated breath.

hey eden 99
a miniscule might post in here - but a !!!!! load read it -
not everyone is up to being cut down by belligerent union reps - and I've heard from a disgruntled very close to the faaa office -that the only focus of attention in there at the moment -the only burning, relevant issue - is the current executives re -election strategy for the next two years . This is the boys primary concern.
Power corrupts .......

#$ker@R5,

can you remind us all how many people put themselves up for election in opposition to the FAAA incumbents, last time around we had a vote???

True Speedbirdhouse ….true....however….

In Germany just because there was no real alternative to old Adolf did not mean he had the best interests of the country at heart and indeed had his own sinister agenda along with his cronies.

This is one reason why I think we should hire a professional/s with no political or personal agenda other than to do a good job and being paid for it…instead of amateur hour with officials who abuse anyone who might disagree with them.

I remember a few years ago when a fsd who was on the union told me he got the company to do another run with the rosters because he didn't get the roster he wanted...

My god but some crap is spread in here. My only suggestion to those of you who post in here are substance abuse is make sure its out of your system before you go to work ok...

Bid System.

The bid system is not ideal at all. But it is better than an allocated roster system. Capping and Limited sounds fine but what trips are capped and what are limited. And worse, anything that you cap wouldnt apply to overseas based crew anyway and the company can put them where they like.

If they cap short trips it could mean that ppl with children who both fly may not be able to keep flying. Or people engaging in external education may not be able to attend.

What is a good or bad or popular trip is very much up to the individual.

If crew want to have more choice then clearly some would lose choice. i actually dont get much out of the bid system by way of choice but i know a great deal of my colleagues do. I guess where is fly is less important to me than job security. Having said that i would be open to a survey of some kind but generally everyone wants the same thing. And that is normally what someone else has.

It's the way of the world. i think that those that want change should write to the FAAA as members and suggest questions for a survey and their reasons for wanting a survey.

The only way i can ever see the FAAA doing it is if they get a lot of written comment and feel there is a major groundswell of support for it.

Given that the Union represents among its own officials a reasonable crossection of the seniority spectrum i dont see them pushing theor own barrows but waiting for the members to initiate it

My "informant" @ QCC tells me that there are going to be some B-I-G announcements on Thursday/Friday( in line with the half yearly results announcements). It might look like this:
# AO airlines-GONE. ( see Jet * Int )
# Major restructure-new divisions.
# ETOM's announcement ? ( offshore ? )
# Redundancies ( bring it on )
# DOOM & GLOOM ( standard Darth Script number #452)
# Darth to pull beers at his Wagga pub ?
# Il Duce to be the "chosen one".
Kylies departure is all making sense......... 3 days prior to this announcement.
BRACE BRACE BRACE .......heads down ,stay down!!!!!
www

Darth Dixon is probably upset at the announcement that BHP has just made the biggest profit for an Australian business on record…He is thinking about how big a bonus his opposite No. at BHP is getting compared to him, with any luck maybe Darth will leave and go to BHP.

The bonus system that the corporate world works on is like viagra to them and Darth will be walking around like a sailor in patpong Rd thinking about how big his bonus would be if QF made that sort of profit.

Notice how Pegasus did not comment on my suggestion of hiring a professional to run our union instead of a few amateurs or that he dismissed a cap system on our rosters, the tech crew have made it work ,why not us.

Funny how anyone who has a point that differs from the faaa is suffering from substance abuse or is hysterical (read Edens post).

I can understand the argument about not restricting short trips because of family commitments but how about a cap on long flights like LA’s ,JFK’s,SFO’s,LHR’s etc…or the shorter NRT trips ,I think the argument that I have to do back to back NRT's because I have a child at home wears a little thin

I think it is fair enough that senior crew are recognized and get trips like the new SFO’s but not to the point where some are doing 4 in a row.

The SFO trips will be like the Paris trips and after 6 months or so the senior crew will get bored doing back to back but I still think there is something wrong with crew doing them back to back for a roster or two or three.

Surely we can do something about limiting long haul flights or trips, how about a limit of 2 long haul flights per roster and a limit of 4 shorter trips such as 3 or 4 day NRT’s …We could leave trips across the pond and day trips if that helps crew with family commitments as I don’t think there are too many crew who want to do those and miss out….

Just a few thoughts …any comments????


Interesting times ahead……...

LL,
the problem with professional union reps(non air crew), there is a question of loyalty and trust.

As we know there are no guarantees in life and the moment this is posted someone will surely post that they heard a rumour that a former official did a deal on the side with the company many moons ago blah, blah blah.

The point is which is generally accepted is the old premise - the devil you know. At least when its one (or 11 or however many it now is) of us we hold some hope that who ever represents us will do so with the utmost integrity. After all they are also representing themselves. On the other hand outsiders have loyalty only to the dollar and future job prospects.. Yes i know there are former officials that have gone over to the other team, be that as it may.

Good question speedbird. All this union bashing and I have yet to see someone put themselves up as alternative candidates. I still havent seen the 3 former officials at union meetings.Too embarrassed I guess.

this post wil get the goat up of some senior folk, but to start with let me say it is my opinion only.
pegasus
that is the whole point, why should some crew get all the choice? It would be better to have most getting some choice, then a handfull getting all the choice, and the majority getting none.
again (and this will be the one that everyone will go me on - but so be it )
if capping would come in, then crew would have to decide which is more important to them children/ study or their destinations. Harsh but true. Why should the majority suffer because of senior crews' personal life 'issues' ? Seriously.
This job is NOT suited to the mothers' club, and seriously, why should those of us suffer just cos we dont have kids or study??
And no I will not accept being penalised just to suit those seniors who want to be selfish by keeping a job that doesnt suit parenthood.
All destinations should be capped and evenly shared every roster, this would give a much fairer and even distribution to all involved.
I am happy for annual leave, days off, etc to stay on seniority, but why should destinations be exclusive to those who are senior ? What difference is having a 4 day JNB to a parent than having a 4 day HNL ??? Please explain (if parenthood is the main concern?).
Bring it on !

just a little reminder there has been 35 amendments to the bidsystem since its original version. and lets face it the faaa and its excecutive arm (the monthly meeting by mostly senior csm's and SR at the anglers club in the shire) make decisions based on the view of very senior members ONLY. anything to keep the top 10% happy. they are the ones turning up at the meetings.
and on anohter note it appears kylie had enough from beiing the "second most hated person " after LG.

Cart elevator does have a point, whatever system is in place for rostering no one should be disadvantaged because someone else has decided to have children.

If someone has made a decision to have a family then other people in that work environment should not be affected by that decision.

Similarly ,if someone argues that they want to be home every weekend to play golf then that does not mean that they have to do back to back NRT’s to achieve that. It is up to the individuals concerned to pick any trip that fills that need not just the cream.A JNB would do the job just as well as a NRT if they are back for their game of golf.

As I mentioned the tech crew have a limit on how many trips they can do to the same destination,let’s look at that sytem. If someone has other responsibilities in life and flying conflicts with those responsibilities then maybe they should think of another job instead of expecting other people to share their burden.

As an aside ,it was reported that the profit from J* will not be included in the QF group profit.If this is the case it sounds as though Darth is starting up again with his chicken little scenario to argue for protection from the government as well as using the old gloom stick to hit his employees with again.

As well ,the woman responsible for the QF IT system has left or was pushed and has taken up the post of senior management with Telstra. QF has apparently scrapped most of her initiatives because they did not work ,at great cost I might add.

As a previous post said …BRACE…..BRACE…

C'Mon Hawkeye I am still waiting for your blueprint of the alternative Bid System.
Like so many critics you are short on ideas and merely snipe from the sidelines.
Your credibility.....ZERO

SYDNEY, 16 February 2006: Qantas today announced a profit before tax of $483.5
million for the half-year ended 31 December 2005, a 3.4 per cent decrease on the half-
year to 31 December 2004.

The 2005 half-year profit includes a one-off restructuring cost of $69.6 million under the
airline's Sustainable Future Program. The 2004 half-year results included a release of
surplus revenue accounting provisions of $52.1 million.

Adjusting for these two items, profit improved by $104.6 million, or 23.3 per cent during the
six months to 31 December 2005.

Mr Dixon said Qantas had programs and initiatives in place and planned over the next two
years to "lock-in" its competitive strength and a viable cost base.

These programs and initiatives include:

The development of two distinct and competitive brands - Qantas and Jetstar in the
premium/leisure market and in the value based market.

The Jetstar strategy involves expanding the domestic network, launching international
operations and bringing the Jetstar Asia operation closer to the Jetstar Group. New
Jetstar joint ventures are also planned for other parts of the world.

This will mean considerable growth for both brands, especially Jetstar internationally in
the next three years, Qantas in new international markets, and the movement of Australian Airlines into the Qantas Airlines structure.


......That last sentence is interesting.....as well as the statement that there will be 2 distinct and competitive brands...so will J* international compete with QF as well as other carriers and that there is no mention of AO except that will move into the QF airlines structure...

So Hassell is gone.

I have always found the carryings on by our Machavellian CC management an interesting sideshow.

They rarely let me down.
The spice added by the lure of end of Year bonuses and the Manager's efforts to slash, burn and annihilate become ever more relentless and fascinating.

The whipping boys/girls of LH are now so desensitised they are numb.
The latest fascist approach ( pointed out so accurately by L2A ) by the aptly described KIWI sociopath is something new .

This appears the latest way of managing the age old problem.

Just how do you efectively manage a group of headstrong absentee workers ?

No one seems to have a freakin clue.


Meanwhile the parade of fresh managers keeps the turnstile spinning and another one bites the dust.
NEXXXTTTTTTTTT...............


I can see the the announcement from the new General Manager now.

Somewhere will be those fatefull words: “ My door is always open “ .

The show is fascinating but the script is sometimes painfully predictable.

one can only hope that JB sees the light and give LG the boot. its interesting that you have a head of customer service who does not show her face to crew(not that many would care too much anyway). LG puts a couple of layers in between her and the frontline staff so if reschuffles come along someone else has to go. i feel sorry for ali webster i think she is a very dissent and competent person but having the black widow on her back is not excactly inspiring. the revolving door keeps going. lets see how many other heads get the chop.

The part I am interested in looking at is the $69.6 million set aside for restructuring under the guise of sustainable futures and Australian employee minimizing program..

Is this another way of saying VR or CR for any group in the Qantas group that is no longer needed ?

If there is a VR package to cabin crew, there could be casualties as people fight for the application forms.

Could it be cabin crew or maintenance or even tech crew (flight engineers no longer needed if they dump the 747-300’s???

$69.6 million is a lot of money to be allocated for new job titles and letter heads from the stationary department (if we still have a printing department) and the moving of a few desks and chairs…there has to be more than that to spend that sort of money.

Unless of course it includes a bonus for Darth……..

the latest news that GD is in talks with garuda airlines could solve on problem. use garuda planes and crew paint them in jetstar international colors and off you go. i am sure jonny howard supports him all the way.

as for the bidsystem cap every trip to a limit of 4 and the spread would be more even. even the mother club could do with a little variety.

Butterfield, you are pathetic.
The answer is simple. The Company sends out a survey of all Longhaul crew.
It identifies key areas of what everybody desires from an allocation system of work.
It selects a committee with FAAA involvement and perhaps professional work allocation system designers and they determine a new allocated work system. It may be they create one or more models. The model or models are then put to the Long haul cabin crew to vote upon.

What would change is one small group no longer get everything and the rest get nothing or very average. What is eradicated is 1980s discrimination and selfishness.
Pegasus you are correct there is no perfect work allocation system that will suit everybody. To believe so is unrealistic. Continuing to accept this current discriminatory system is also unrealistic, and almost hypocritical from a union stand point to allow it to continue existing. Its almost putting your head in the sand stuff as it is all too hard. Your not one of our union officials are you? It is hard and it needs to be fixed.NOW!

What you (Hawkeye) propose means that EVERYONE loses.:
The company is not going to spend one cent on a new bid system for no gain and at great cost simply to appease a few disgruntled individuals
Get over it.
QF has already looked at CARMEN and it prove too expensive for no real benefit to the business or employees