Qantas London base
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lets look it at a different angle
reading how Q-tee carries on i must think she is a former line manager or sitting in qc4 hedging her bets.
now as i mentioned earlier if enough f/a's go sick alternating days and having a sick certificate qf cant lock u out or offer you a contract on your return. all this angst about getting locked out is rather premature. in addition its going to be christmas and a time for qf not to play around too much with bad publicity. those of you interested go to crikey.com.au type in qantas and you can find enough info as how geoff and his mates treat the travelling public and their responses.
every f/a should channel their energy into getting emails asking for support in keeping aussie jobs to all members of the parliament, go to their website aph.gov.au
actu website
stae and local government websites
media as in newspaper, tv, magzines and so on
just think a thousand or so f/a's keep emailing all members of the above websites and others on a weekly basis till christmas what effect would it have. and lets not forget an election is on the card. yes pollies and the general public dont give a toss about us but a sustained campaign on aussie jobs will have an impact.
all i say lets take the emotions out of it and lets treat this project as a positive achievable objective.
just a little reminder you (and dont forget to tell all your collegues) can air you feelings about the current state of the airline in the upcoming employee survey.
now as i mentioned earlier if enough f/a's go sick alternating days and having a sick certificate qf cant lock u out or offer you a contract on your return. all this angst about getting locked out is rather premature. in addition its going to be christmas and a time for qf not to play around too much with bad publicity. those of you interested go to crikey.com.au type in qantas and you can find enough info as how geoff and his mates treat the travelling public and their responses.
every f/a should channel their energy into getting emails asking for support in keeping aussie jobs to all members of the parliament, go to their website aph.gov.au
actu website
stae and local government websites
media as in newspaper, tv, magzines and so on
just think a thousand or so f/a's keep emailing all members of the above websites and others on a weekly basis till christmas what effect would it have. and lets not forget an election is on the card. yes pollies and the general public dont give a toss about us but a sustained campaign on aussie jobs will have an impact.
all i say lets take the emotions out of it and lets treat this project as a positive achievable objective.
just a little reminder you (and dont forget to tell all your collegues) can air you feelings about the current state of the airline in the upcoming employee survey.
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When one reads some of the extreme views of some posters, it is clear why GD wants to push through significant change at QF. I feel he actually wants you to walk so he can invite back who he wants.
As for using sick leave to cause massive disruption, well I wrote some months back about how radical unionists will go to great lengths to damage their own employers brand. I was ridiculed for doing so but time has now shown that my prediction was correct by reading the preceding posts.
Why hide behind sick leave? Do you not have the courage of your conviction to see you through. It also goes towards confirming the long held view that the FAAA sees sick leave abuse as appropriate and has never been really serious about management of it.
Having read the extreme views of some, my view has strengthened and I wish GD well in his reforms. It would appear culture change is appropriate at QF long haul.
As for using sick leave to cause massive disruption, well I wrote some months back about how radical unionists will go to great lengths to damage their own employers brand. I was ridiculed for doing so but time has now shown that my prediction was correct by reading the preceding posts.
Why hide behind sick leave? Do you not have the courage of your conviction to see you through. It also goes towards confirming the long held view that the FAAA sees sick leave abuse as appropriate and has never been really serious about management of it.
Having read the extreme views of some, my view has strengthened and I wish GD well in his reforms. It would appear culture change is appropriate at QF long haul.
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some facts for the big picture
having read the comment from jet black i can only say you are i think somewhat limited in your knowledge whats going on inside the big roo or you are sitting above the second level and happily st***ng the pot.
lots of customers ( iam talking CL,PL,GD Frequent flyers ) out there who has somehow an inside knowledge or dealings with GD and his mates call them very arrogant.( that label only started appearing last year). not my call but i am a good listener on long nights in the galley
since cabin crew decrewing and minor wageconcessions in the last 3 years GD and mates increased management levels in QF (not the QF group) by around 20% and costs associated by around 37%. "this in times when we continue to do bad, wagefreezes, things look ugly,etc". not to be outdone the QF board & excecs also had their hands in the till and pushed up their fees by around 27%-32% (check it out on last years annual qf statements/cant wait for this years addition)
that does not take into consideration addecco fees (contractors who run the bangkok and auckland cabin crew base) .
this proposed LHR base will end up costing me 10-15% of my wage. now do you give up any of your wages without a fight?
morale is low, equipment is old (ask any CSM out there how often they apologise to passengersregarding the IFE, lack of stores and so on). these days its the blame between departments, which at the end the customer is really the one who feels the impact and he/she ands up going to competitiors. currently we loose around 10% pa to emirates alone i got told by a marketing guy. no, its not because of crew.
lets face it protected industrial action is not the only way to go, takes too long, thats why sickleave and other actions have a more immidiate and serious impact. and as for the qantas brand and its impact,read the latest upgrades from brokers (its factored in).
but GD has no problems spending hundreds of thousands if not millions on fighting cabin crew to protect and increase his and other managements bonuses. do you really think gd and his industrial mights play fair. give me a break
lots of customers ( iam talking CL,PL,GD Frequent flyers ) out there who has somehow an inside knowledge or dealings with GD and his mates call them very arrogant.( that label only started appearing last year). not my call but i am a good listener on long nights in the galley
since cabin crew decrewing and minor wageconcessions in the last 3 years GD and mates increased management levels in QF (not the QF group) by around 20% and costs associated by around 37%. "this in times when we continue to do bad, wagefreezes, things look ugly,etc". not to be outdone the QF board & excecs also had their hands in the till and pushed up their fees by around 27%-32% (check it out on last years annual qf statements/cant wait for this years addition)
that does not take into consideration addecco fees (contractors who run the bangkok and auckland cabin crew base) .
this proposed LHR base will end up costing me 10-15% of my wage. now do you give up any of your wages without a fight?
morale is low, equipment is old (ask any CSM out there how often they apologise to passengersregarding the IFE, lack of stores and so on). these days its the blame between departments, which at the end the customer is really the one who feels the impact and he/she ands up going to competitiors. currently we loose around 10% pa to emirates alone i got told by a marketing guy. no, its not because of crew.
lets face it protected industrial action is not the only way to go, takes too long, thats why sickleave and other actions have a more immidiate and serious impact. and as for the qantas brand and its impact,read the latest upgrades from brokers (its factored in).
but GD has no problems spending hundreds of thousands if not millions on fighting cabin crew to protect and increase his and other managements bonuses. do you really think gd and his industrial mights play fair. give me a break
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jbm,
right on. good post. I agree with your sentiments.
BM,L2P etc,
A smart faaa would keep its head down, take the salary, conditions, perks, staff travel etc and not draw attention to how unrealistic your industrial leaders are.
tread carefully - striking will result in the end of the faaa (something dixon has been looking forward to) and tears from a lot of FA's not welcome back into the fold (sans previous employment conditions).
right on. good post. I agree with your sentiments.
BM,L2P etc,
A smart faaa would keep its head down, take the salary, conditions, perks, staff travel etc and not draw attention to how unrealistic your industrial leaders are.
tread carefully - striking will result in the end of the faaa (something dixon has been looking forward to) and tears from a lot of FA's not welcome back into the fold (sans previous employment conditions).
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Hi Folks
Please dont think that JetBlackMonaro's thoughts and sentiments represent those of the greater DJ cabin crew population... he/she is most certainly entitled to their opinion, but please dont think we all feel the same. I personally hope to see QF Long Haul CC maintain their salary/wages/conditions etc, even if I don't necessarily agree with striking as a way of getting it (although I can also see how you are having difficulties finding other options!)
Good luck, hope you guys pull through as the winners
Cheers
Please dont think that JetBlackMonaro's thoughts and sentiments represent those of the greater DJ cabin crew population... he/she is most certainly entitled to their opinion, but please dont think we all feel the same. I personally hope to see QF Long Haul CC maintain their salary/wages/conditions etc, even if I don't necessarily agree with striking as a way of getting it (although I can also see how you are having difficulties finding other options!)
Good luck, hope you guys pull through as the winners
Cheers
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The applications for the UK base are now open for CURRENT AUSTRALIAN BASED QANTAS CREW only.
Amazingly the application form asks for your 'Current employer' details!!!
On another note - Did anyone attend the W.A. FAAA branch meetings? Wondering what the response was like from our Perth based collegues.
Amazingly the application form asks for your 'Current employer' details!!!
On another note - Did anyone attend the W.A. FAAA branch meetings? Wondering what the response was like from our Perth based collegues.
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QT
I have been reading your posts with interest...I just wanted to add a few things.
Its entirely your choice to go to LHR and work under those different conditions...Let us who believe that this is a threat to our working conditions fight for it.
You may believe that this base is inevitable but I like many others will not sit back and allow the fat cats in higher management to greedily eat up the profits, through their bonuses while we lose our conditions...The conditions that people like yourself probably fought for many years ago.
I'd be happy to go to the LHR base...if it was under the current posting provisions of the EBA...But no!!!
...I have to accept another contract from my employer and take leave without pay...It sort of leaves a bad taste in your mouth doesn't it?...They can still save their $18M in accommodation costs!!!
Its time for us to stand up and be counted!!!...
I have been reading your posts with interest...I just wanted to add a few things.
Its entirely your choice to go to LHR and work under those different conditions...Let us who believe that this is a threat to our working conditions fight for it.
You may believe that this base is inevitable but I like many others will not sit back and allow the fat cats in higher management to greedily eat up the profits, through their bonuses while we lose our conditions...The conditions that people like yourself probably fought for many years ago.
I'd be happy to go to the LHR base...if it was under the current posting provisions of the EBA...But no!!!
...I have to accept another contract from my employer and take leave without pay...It sort of leaves a bad taste in your mouth doesn't it?...They can still save their $18M in accommodation costs!!!Its time for us to stand up and be counted!!!...
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Geez guys ..... I seem to be hated, much like my friend on a LHR flight last week who said she was going to the LHR base .... was called a SCAB by her colleagues onboard .... nice work guys.
If you cant accept Aussies going on contract to LHR, then you will HAVE to accept those 400 positions going to UK locals ...
This base is a reality, it will happen, nothing can stop it .... you also forget the 3,000 shorthaul FAAA members who can fly to any destination on the Longhaul network on the A330 .... they now have the hour limitations and it can go most places the 747 can .... and they cannot refuse to do so if we are on strike ---> that would be a secondary boycott, and that's illegal.
DO I agree with the LHR base ?? Not on principle... but I will not pass up the opportunity, as there is nothing that can stop it...
Yes I know people will lose money, but it is going to happen .... the crew are so focussed on this LHR base, they are forgetting what else the company are planning on doing during the next EBA .... and I believe thats the management plan...
You guys can bag me all you want .... you are just pointing out the fact that you cant cope with change .... I must admit the accelerated change of late is a shock, but I am doing the best I can to adapt ...
If the FAAA decides to call a strike over this .... they will lose, that is plainly obvious .... there are too many differently employed crew.
the ground staff who were promised a job, have just got them .... they have been seconded to flying for an eleven month period, my best friend is training them all ...
And the current longhaul permanents are so worried about their jobs, most will not strike .... it will just bring on the enivitable 'individual contracts' that have been threatened for years ....
My poij\nt of view is my own, and as with everone else on here I have the right to air it ...... bag me for it, but I have been in this company for too long to see this is already a lost fight ...
happy argument guys ....
If you cant accept Aussies going on contract to LHR, then you will HAVE to accept those 400 positions going to UK locals ...
This base is a reality, it will happen, nothing can stop it .... you also forget the 3,000 shorthaul FAAA members who can fly to any destination on the Longhaul network on the A330 .... they now have the hour limitations and it can go most places the 747 can .... and they cannot refuse to do so if we are on strike ---> that would be a secondary boycott, and that's illegal.
DO I agree with the LHR base ?? Not on principle... but I will not pass up the opportunity, as there is nothing that can stop it...
Yes I know people will lose money, but it is going to happen .... the crew are so focussed on this LHR base, they are forgetting what else the company are planning on doing during the next EBA .... and I believe thats the management plan...
You guys can bag me all you want .... you are just pointing out the fact that you cant cope with change .... I must admit the accelerated change of late is a shock, but I am doing the best I can to adapt ...
If the FAAA decides to call a strike over this .... they will lose, that is plainly obvious .... there are too many differently employed crew.
the ground staff who were promised a job, have just got them .... they have been seconded to flying for an eleven month period, my best friend is training them all ...
And the current longhaul permanents are so worried about their jobs, most will not strike .... it will just bring on the enivitable 'individual contracts' that have been threatened for years ....
My poij\nt of view is my own, and as with everone else on here I have the right to air it ...... bag me for it, but I have been in this company for too long to see this is already a lost fight ...
happy argument guys ....
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qtee...........luv,
your arguments about why the London base is going to go ahead are getting more and more desperate with each post.
The short haul award limits them to 3 hour time differences and endorsement on another aircraft type [744] pose's issues with CASA.
One union refusing to allow its members to scab on another IS NOT a secondary boycott.
Longhaul are united as they have NEVER been before and will fight this ALL the way and you know it.
Where are QF going to get 1000?, 2000?,3000?, 4000? cabin crew at short notice ???????????
The FAAA will be carrying out protected industrial action so QF will be powerless to do anything about it either before or after the fact.
Do us all a favour by reading Argus's last post.
Quote
-------------------------------------------------------------
If you cant accept Aussies going on contract to LHR, then you will HAVE to accept those 400 positions going to UK locals ...
-------------------------------------------------------------
Riiiiiiight.........So its now the FAAA that are responsible for shifting jobs offshore???????
Your desperation is REALLY beginning to show.
L2P
your arguments about why the London base is going to go ahead are getting more and more desperate with each post.
The short haul award limits them to 3 hour time differences and endorsement on another aircraft type [744] pose's issues with CASA.
One union refusing to allow its members to scab on another IS NOT a secondary boycott.
Longhaul are united as they have NEVER been before and will fight this ALL the way and you know it.
Where are QF going to get 1000?, 2000?,3000?, 4000? cabin crew at short notice ???????????
The FAAA will be carrying out protected industrial action so QF will be powerless to do anything about it either before or after the fact.
Do us all a favour by reading Argus's last post.
Quote
-------------------------------------------------------------
If you cant accept Aussies going on contract to LHR, then you will HAVE to accept those 400 positions going to UK locals ...
-------------------------------------------------------------
Riiiiiiight.........So its now the FAAA that are responsible for shifting jobs offshore???????
Your desperation is REALLY beginning to show.
L2P
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Q-Tee,
Quote - And the current longhaul permanents are so worried about their jobs, most will not strike .... it will just bring on the enivitable 'individual contracts' that have been threatened for years ....
What a load of BS. We can go on strike during the protected indutrial dispute period ...we will still have our jobs on the same terms and conditions and at least have put up a fight.
Quote - If the FAAA decides to call a strike over this .... they will lose, that is plainly obvious.
Not obvious at all. The board cares about $$$ and when we strike the company will lose big $. It wouldn't be long before the board begins to question whether lifting the overseas crew cap is worth it.
I for one will not stand around and let the company screw me. You may be apathetic Q-Tee but many crew are not. We will fight this long and hard.
Quote - And the current longhaul permanents are so worried about their jobs, most will not strike .... it will just bring on the enivitable 'individual contracts' that have been threatened for years ....
What a load of BS. We can go on strike during the protected indutrial dispute period ...we will still have our jobs on the same terms and conditions and at least have put up a fight.
Quote - If the FAAA decides to call a strike over this .... they will lose, that is plainly obvious.
Not obvious at all. The board cares about $$$ and when we strike the company will lose big $. It wouldn't be long before the board begins to question whether lifting the overseas crew cap is worth it.
I for one will not stand around and let the company screw me. You may be apathetic Q-Tee but many crew are not. We will fight this long and hard.
Last edited by leemo; 29th Jul 2004 at 00:45.
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By the way. I have spoken with Mark Latham ALP and they are concerned that Qantas are moving Australian jobs off shore.
His email address is
[email protected]
I urge any crew member to contact him if they are unhappy with this outrageous slap in the face for hard working Qantas crew.
His email address is
[email protected]
I urge any crew member to contact him if they are unhappy with this outrageous slap in the face for hard working Qantas crew.
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Found this on the FAAA website
Attention All Qantas Long Haul Flight Attendants
OVERSEAS BASES UPDATE
MEMBERSHIP ENDORSES FAAA RECOMMENDATION TO FIGHT FOR OUR JOB SECURITY AND CONDITIONS OF EMPLOYMENT
Last week the series of nationwide membership meetings concluded. A very large turnout of members (923) endorsed the following resolution, with only 2 members voting against.
“QANTAS LONG HAUL FLIGHT ATTENDANTS CONDEMN THE PROPOSAL BY QANTAS TO EXPAND THE USE OF OVERSEAS-BASED FLIGHT ATTENDANTS AND TO ESTABLISH A LONDON BASE. FURTHER, WE EMPOWER THE SECRETARY – INTERNATIONAL DIVISION TO TAKE ALL NECESSARY ACTIONS TO FIGHT THESE PROPOSALS THAT THREATEN OUR JOBS AND OUR LIVELIHOOD”.
WHY THE QANTAS PLAN IS UNACCEPTABLE TO THE FAAA
- Qantas wants to have the unrestricted ability to hire unlimited numbers of overseas cabin crew who will not be employed under our EBA. (Currently Qantas is limited to no more than 370 overseas based crew – the CAP)
- If Qantas is allowed to achieve its objective of no restriction (no cap) on overseas based crew numbers it will mean the inevitable destruction of your terms and conditions of employment.
- There is no guarantee in the event of forced redundancies that overseas based crew will be made redundant before Australian based crew. The threat to our crew, particularly our junior crew is unacceptable. Qantas will naturally want to keep cheaper overseas based crew if forced redundancy became necessary.
- We believe that there will be a real danger of other European destinations (Frankfurt) being withdrawn from Australian based crew if Qantas has the ability to have unlimited overseas based crew.
- This will mean a global salary reduction for Australian based crew as allowances, overtime, long range and ODTA associated with London patterns become no longer available to our crew.
- This means we will go from a wage freeze in 2002 to a global wage cut in 2005 if Qantas proceeds with its stated intentions.
- The FAAA believes that once long European patterns disappear i.e. LHR, these will be replaced with shorter patterns and a loss of income for crew.
- Commuters will be disadvantaged further, by increased costs associated with having to do shorter trips because London trips will no longer available
WHY LONG HAUL CREW SHOULD NOT ACCEPT THE “OFFER” TO WORK IN LHR
- Qantas says it “guarantees” a right of return to a cabin crew position in Australia. The few of you contemplating the “offer” should ensure you see a highly skilled lawyer to ensure that in fact an enforceable right of return exists.
- The hours worked in the LHR base will be 220 hours on “average” and up to 240 hours for the same money that you would receive in Australia i.e. 20-31% hourly pay cut.
- There are potentially substantial superannuation implications of taking up the “offer” and going to LHR on the basis of leave without pay from your current position and not contributing superannuation to your existing QF scheme.
- Any current Australian based crew member taking up the “offer”
for the LHR base will not be covered by the FAAA and all the protections and benefits that FAAA membership entails.
- Our EBA does not allow for seniority to be recognised upon return to Australia, for any period of employment, that an existing Australian based Long Haul cabin crew member, may take up with Qantas Cabin Crew (UK) Ltd.
- Acceptance of this “offer” by our crew, will in the FAAA’s opinion result in pressure by Qantas on current Australian based crew to accept similar inferior conditions
- 1 week less annual leave.
To illustrate the point of rapidly changing circumstances that confront Qantas and the resulting changed positions that Qantas adopts, the following 2 questions were published on the cabin crew website on 6 July 2004:
Question: “Are we pulling out of Paris…?
Answer: “There are no plans to leave or increase capacity to Paris”.
Question: “Will there be a Long Haul Base in BNE?”
Answer: “ There is no plan for this as it isn’t viable at this time”.
To those of you contemplating the LHR “offer” make sure you consider all the issues that the FAAA has raised and make sure that you don’t become victims of changed circumstances.
Finally, the FAAA does not wish confrontation with Qantas over the issue of the CAP and the issue of protection for our crew from forced redundancy. However, so that there is no ambiguity, the FAAA will not accept a situation of unlimited overseas based crew and a direct threat to the job security of our members.
We will update you as events develop.
OVERSEAS BASES UPDATE
MEMBERSHIP ENDORSES FAAA RECOMMENDATION TO FIGHT FOR OUR JOB SECURITY AND CONDITIONS OF EMPLOYMENT
Last week the series of nationwide membership meetings concluded. A very large turnout of members (923) endorsed the following resolution, with only 2 members voting against.
“QANTAS LONG HAUL FLIGHT ATTENDANTS CONDEMN THE PROPOSAL BY QANTAS TO EXPAND THE USE OF OVERSEAS-BASED FLIGHT ATTENDANTS AND TO ESTABLISH A LONDON BASE. FURTHER, WE EMPOWER THE SECRETARY – INTERNATIONAL DIVISION TO TAKE ALL NECESSARY ACTIONS TO FIGHT THESE PROPOSALS THAT THREATEN OUR JOBS AND OUR LIVELIHOOD”.
WHY THE QANTAS PLAN IS UNACCEPTABLE TO THE FAAA
- Qantas wants to have the unrestricted ability to hire unlimited numbers of overseas cabin crew who will not be employed under our EBA. (Currently Qantas is limited to no more than 370 overseas based crew – the CAP)
- If Qantas is allowed to achieve its objective of no restriction (no cap) on overseas based crew numbers it will mean the inevitable destruction of your terms and conditions of employment.
- There is no guarantee in the event of forced redundancies that overseas based crew will be made redundant before Australian based crew. The threat to our crew, particularly our junior crew is unacceptable. Qantas will naturally want to keep cheaper overseas based crew if forced redundancy became necessary.
- We believe that there will be a real danger of other European destinations (Frankfurt) being withdrawn from Australian based crew if Qantas has the ability to have unlimited overseas based crew.
- This will mean a global salary reduction for Australian based crew as allowances, overtime, long range and ODTA associated with London patterns become no longer available to our crew.
- This means we will go from a wage freeze in 2002 to a global wage cut in 2005 if Qantas proceeds with its stated intentions.
- The FAAA believes that once long European patterns disappear i.e. LHR, these will be replaced with shorter patterns and a loss of income for crew.
- Commuters will be disadvantaged further, by increased costs associated with having to do shorter trips because London trips will no longer available
WHY LONG HAUL CREW SHOULD NOT ACCEPT THE “OFFER” TO WORK IN LHR
- Qantas says it “guarantees” a right of return to a cabin crew position in Australia. The few of you contemplating the “offer” should ensure you see a highly skilled lawyer to ensure that in fact an enforceable right of return exists.
- The hours worked in the LHR base will be 220 hours on “average” and up to 240 hours for the same money that you would receive in Australia i.e. 20-31% hourly pay cut.
- There are potentially substantial superannuation implications of taking up the “offer” and going to LHR on the basis of leave without pay from your current position and not contributing superannuation to your existing QF scheme.
- Any current Australian based crew member taking up the “offer”
for the LHR base will not be covered by the FAAA and all the protections and benefits that FAAA membership entails.
- Our EBA does not allow for seniority to be recognised upon return to Australia, for any period of employment, that an existing Australian based Long Haul cabin crew member, may take up with Qantas Cabin Crew (UK) Ltd.
- Acceptance of this “offer” by our crew, will in the FAAA’s opinion result in pressure by Qantas on current Australian based crew to accept similar inferior conditions
- 1 week less annual leave.
To illustrate the point of rapidly changing circumstances that confront Qantas and the resulting changed positions that Qantas adopts, the following 2 questions were published on the cabin crew website on 6 July 2004:
Question: “Are we pulling out of Paris…?
Answer: “There are no plans to leave or increase capacity to Paris”.
Question: “Will there be a Long Haul Base in BNE?”
Answer: “ There is no plan for this as it isn’t viable at this time”.
To those of you contemplating the LHR “offer” make sure you consider all the issues that the FAAA has raised and make sure that you don’t become victims of changed circumstances.
Finally, the FAAA does not wish confrontation with Qantas over the issue of the CAP and the issue of protection for our crew from forced redundancy. However, so that there is no ambiguity, the FAAA will not accept a situation of unlimited overseas based crew and a direct threat to the job security of our members.
We will update you as events develop.
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Peeps, if the FAAA can manage to stop this base from happening - Kudos to them ..... thats fine with me, I will stay doing what I am doing now .... flying around at my leisure 
However, methinks I will be in LHR come Feb 2005, in fact I will wager anyone on it
And Secret Squirrel?? There is nothing secret about me .... I am up there saying I want to go to LHR, online and off .... I have nothing to hide .....
For me, this is a great opportunity .... and I will be taking it, and no I will not follow any work bans directed by the FAAA on this issue - nor will anyone else wishing to take this base. And if there is major industrial action ..... well the individual contracts will start being offered .... again what management wants ....
And as for secondary boycotts, it is illegal for anyone to secondary boycott in support of another group on a different Enterprise Bargaining Agreement ....
My arguments are in no way desperate, it would seem however those opposing the base are getting more and more desperate to prove 'solidarity'.... the roving meetings involving 900 longhaul members over a space of weeks - great !! What happened to the other 2,200 ? Possibly not interested?
Either way, it really matters not .....
O h and I would be wary about letting management know what you think in the Employment Engagement Survey .... they have openly stated that it is to "guage how committed crew are to the future success of Qantas" .... now if they have several thousand survey results saying that crew aren't committed to QF's success, then they would be in a very interesting industrial-legal position ....
However, methinks I will be in LHR come Feb 2005, in fact I will wager anyone on it
And Secret Squirrel?? There is nothing secret about me .... I am up there saying I want to go to LHR, online and off .... I have nothing to hide .....
For me, this is a great opportunity .... and I will be taking it, and no I will not follow any work bans directed by the FAAA on this issue - nor will anyone else wishing to take this base. And if there is major industrial action ..... well the individual contracts will start being offered .... again what management wants ....
And as for secondary boycotts, it is illegal for anyone to secondary boycott in support of another group on a different Enterprise Bargaining Agreement ....
My arguments are in no way desperate, it would seem however those opposing the base are getting more and more desperate to prove 'solidarity'.... the roving meetings involving 900 longhaul members over a space of weeks - great !! What happened to the other 2,200 ? Possibly not interested?
Either way, it really matters not .....
O h and I would be wary about letting management know what you think in the Employment Engagement Survey .... they have openly stated that it is to "guage how committed crew are to the future success of Qantas" .... now if they have several thousand survey results saying that crew aren't committed to QF's success, then they would be in a very interesting industrial-legal position ....
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QT
It's so funny reading your posts....It's as if you wish the FAAA to fail in their bid to protect our conditions....And please enough of this "its reality the base is going ahead"....Reality is what everyone perceives it to be and yours is unfortunately a distorted one.
Its a shame...You stated in previous posts that you yourself took industrial action in the past for a variety of reasons...Well, GIVE US THE CHANCE TO DO THE SAME THING NOW!!!!...To protect our hard fought conditions....Its now our turn.
And please stop with the ill informed statements about individual contracts...Scare tactics will get you nowhere...Read the rules about protected industrial action.
I respect your right to air your views but I cant help feeling there is a sense of bitterness in your posts...You seem to be so anti-crew....
You've made your choice to got to LHR...Great!!!
Now let us who wish to stay behind do so.
It's so funny reading your posts....It's as if you wish the FAAA to fail in their bid to protect our conditions....And please enough of this "its reality the base is going ahead"....Reality is what everyone perceives it to be and yours is unfortunately a distorted one.
Its a shame...You stated in previous posts that you yourself took industrial action in the past for a variety of reasons...Well, GIVE US THE CHANCE TO DO THE SAME THING NOW!!!!...To protect our hard fought conditions....Its now our turn.
And please stop with the ill informed statements about individual contracts...Scare tactics will get you nowhere...Read the rules about protected industrial action.
I respect your right to air your views but I cant help feeling there is a sense of bitterness in your posts...You seem to be so anti-crew....
You've made your choice to got to LHR...Great!!!
Now let us who wish to stay behind do so.
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For me, this is a great opportunity .... and I will be taking it, and no I will not follow any work bans directed by the FAAA on this issue - nor will anyone else wishing to take this base. And if there is major industrial action ..... well the individual contracts will start being offered .... again what management wants ....
O h and I would be wary about letting management know what you think in the Employment Engagement Survey .... they have openly stated that it is to "guage how committed crew are to the future success of Qantas" .... now if they have several thousand survey results saying that crew aren't committed to QF's success, then they would be in a very interesting industrial-legal position ....
If nothing else, this thread has shown how divided Long Haul really is. When you have crew calling other crew "scabs" on-board, one would have to say that professionalism and common sense has already been thrown out the window. How disappointing that LH haven't been able to produce a united front, but rather have groups of FA's just chasing whats best for them, how much will you be able to achieve "together" in this state?
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Overhere,
thanks for that.
If you read back through the pages of this thread you will see that there is one QF contributor posting in favour of QF's planned attacks on our working conditions.
She is motivated by pure self interest because she wants to live in LHR for 2 years or so.
Perhaps calling work collegues "scabs" is distasteful to you but ask yourself how you would feel if a group in your place of employment were in support of cutting YOUR pay 15% just because it suited them.The London base is the tool they will try and use to affect this.
Yes, you are on the outside looking in but don't think one tragic, vocal, self interested individual represents the whole FA sentiment.
As I have mentioned before. QF Longhaul have NEVER been so united in their opposition to these attacks and WILL vent their fury at the end of the year.
The issues relating to surveys are more complex than they seem, once again, from the outside.
Lesley Grant used them as a tool at Air NZ to open their London base and abolish their preferential bidding system.
I understand they have spent much of the last 7 or 8 years clawing back the conditions she stripped from them.
Surveys are one of her tools and Longhaul will ignore them because of this. Not because they have lack any comittment to QF's success.
There is not an ounce of FA trust in our management such have been the lies, half truths and deceptions of late. Ignoring the surveys are a vote of no confidence.
Lesley Grant has no concerns beyond maximizing the bottom line of the Cabin Services department because her performance bonuses depend on it.
Does she have any concerns for the longterm health of QF..............?
I DONT think so...........She'll take ALL she can get and be gone in 2 or 3 years, max.
QF Longhaul will be still here and we will be the ones trying to cope with the consequenses.
L2P
BTW I would take ALL that qtee says with a grain of salt. Most, if not all of it is complete and utter BS born of desperate self interest.
It has been suggested here before that qt is a representative of QF management. It's looking that way to me with every post.
thanks for that.
If you read back through the pages of this thread you will see that there is one QF contributor posting in favour of QF's planned attacks on our working conditions.
She is motivated by pure self interest because she wants to live in LHR for 2 years or so.
Perhaps calling work collegues "scabs" is distasteful to you but ask yourself how you would feel if a group in your place of employment were in support of cutting YOUR pay 15% just because it suited them.The London base is the tool they will try and use to affect this.
Yes, you are on the outside looking in but don't think one tragic, vocal, self interested individual represents the whole FA sentiment.
As I have mentioned before. QF Longhaul have NEVER been so united in their opposition to these attacks and WILL vent their fury at the end of the year.
The issues relating to surveys are more complex than they seem, once again, from the outside.
Lesley Grant used them as a tool at Air NZ to open their London base and abolish their preferential bidding system.
I understand they have spent much of the last 7 or 8 years clawing back the conditions she stripped from them.
Surveys are one of her tools and Longhaul will ignore them because of this. Not because they have lack any comittment to QF's success.
There is not an ounce of FA trust in our management such have been the lies, half truths and deceptions of late. Ignoring the surveys are a vote of no confidence.
Lesley Grant has no concerns beyond maximizing the bottom line of the Cabin Services department because her performance bonuses depend on it.
Does she have any concerns for the longterm health of QF..............?
I DONT think so...........She'll take ALL she can get and be gone in 2 or 3 years, max.
QF Longhaul will be still here and we will be the ones trying to cope with the consequenses.
L2P
BTW I would take ALL that qtee says with a grain of salt. Most, if not all of it is complete and utter BS born of desperate self interest.
It has been suggested here before that qt is a representative of QF management. It's looking that way to me with every post.
Last edited by Left2primary; 30th Jul 2004 at 09:11.
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"CRIKEY" hits the nail on the head
Qantas - an inside view
Pemberton Strong
Crikey's aviation expert
Crikey has reported extensively on Qantas in recent months. Here's a well-informed insider view on the way an Australian business icon operates.
30 July 2004
Business Index
Blinkered analysts on James Hardie
Qantas - an inside view
Crikey at the Macquarie AGM
A sleeper surfaces from Reserve Bank
Profiling CBA CEO David Murray
McGauchie's James Hardie baggage
'Dame' Margaret jumps Fairfax board
NAB: icon in distress
Foreign winners and losers in Australia
The foreign business lists
Top 50 Aussies in overseas business
Telstra is not our biggest company
As of Sunday, August 1, there will be only 19 days to the release of the Qantas result for 2003-04 and there's every sign that it will among the best the airline has reported.
But don't expect much in the way of boasting. There will more in the same vein as the letter CEO Geoff Dixon wrote to The Australian Financial Review last week (More special interest pleading from Qantas). Of course he's right, but as exporters and importers have found for years there's no such thing as a "level playing field". Its a mirage, a figment of some businessman's dream or an economists momentary flash of desperation. Even the most committed and competitive of businessman knows there's a host of things and happenings out there that will tilt the playing field against you. It's how you react and adapt that separates the moaners from those who succeed.
But regardless of the cries for special help, Qantas continues to flesh out the empire, this week announcing new services from Melbourne to Los Angeles to counter new services added by Air New Zealand, which is flying via Auckland.
And it will go some way to also countering the push by Singapore (and maybe Cathay) to fly Australia-US, which is a sleeping issue at the moment. Qantas, like all successful businesses doesn't like to have too robust a level of competition and Singapore could certainly provide that on the trans-Pacific routes, currently one of Qantas's most profitable.
And Qantas wants to succeed while having a good, old fashioned Aussie whine about the unfairness of all those "furriners".
So what have they really to complain about? Well there's the service to the city of "lurve".
No, I don't mean Las Vegas, I mean Paris, France. Recently I remarked on the Qantas decision to abandon Paris to a code share with another airline (Cathay). Here's what a well informed Crikey reader wrote in reply: " Qantas pulled out of Paris because it lost $22 million last year and similar amounts the year before. Qantas would have liked to increase its services from three a week to seven (economies of scale would have brought it into profit). However the French government and Air France prevented this."
Hmmm interesting, and there was more.
"The introduction of the new business class product and the increase of services to London (more to come) and Los Angeles was a result of business travellers again travelling after SARS and the uncertainty of terrorism (which is been countered by increased security around the worlds at airports and by governments). It also is driven by relentless competition in the premium market by all airlines."
Advice to travellers. "Frequent flyer points are used extensively throughout the network but it is a complicated issue when and how to get it. In simple terms don't try to use them in business class (say Monday morning, Friday nights, etc.) and any other busy times the suits are travelling. Off-peak is the secret."
And other issues. "Pulling out of Rome and Paris is driven by short-term strategic thinking in my opinion. The average manager's corporate life has been reduced to five years and is heavily dependent on bonuses. It also is a fact that Qantas has no twin engine long range aircraft on international routes at the moment. Most major airlines operate twin engine aircraft to build up routes new or existing ones with lower yields". (Yet its cheap international carrier, Australian Airlines is flying old Boeing 767 twin engine planes on its services. Go figure!)
"Qantas does have four airbus A330-200 twin engine long range aircraft, but these are being used on domestic sectors.
"Only GOD, CEO Geoff Dixon, knows why."
"Recently the penny dropped and the boys, Geoff, and John Borghetti, the putative successor to Dixon? wanted to convert these Airbuses to international configuration with the lovely sky beds in it. However they were told the floors in the aircraft need to be strengthen at a cost of A$65 million. Ouch. So we keep flying our only long-range twin engine aircraft on domestic routes!
"Qantas relies heavily on feeder service from British Airways in London and American Airlines in Los Angeles. The majority of future growth is directed towards those ports. Given that Qantas has its major eggs in two baskets one can only hope there is no major hiccup there, otherwise the immediate impact would be severe."
On the move to establish an international cabin crew base in Brisbane, the insider had this to say.
"Qantas international cabin crew have bases in Sydney (around 85%), and the rest in Melbourne and Perth. There are around 25% of cabin crew who commute to Sydney, Melbourne or to a lesser degree to Perth. In your article you mention cabin crew leaving in on the Gold Coast and Brisbane having a little 'lurk'.
"You imply that they travel free domestically to work". (No it’s the businesses they keep on the side while not flying) "FACT: every cabin crew member or pilot (there are hundreds of pilots who also commute from anywhere in Australia) have to pay for their ticket to their home base. In addition your are on staff travel ticket where if there is no seat available and you can't travel. There's no such thing as booking and having a confirmed seat. Standby is the word, and it is not much fun after a 12- 18 hours night/day shift tour of duty from somewhere overseas or before you are going to work":
(Pemberton Strong: But it is a lower yield to Qantas for staff to be occupying a seat, even paying for it, than a travelling member of the public who pays more.) "And how far do allowances go in Sydney where the cost of accommodation is high. The allowances don't go very far.
"We live away from Sydney because of family and friends. And the tickets aren't so much cheaper these days either then the low cost carriers.
"A Gold Coast Qantas commuter I know recently booked several flights on a low cost domestic carrier as was cheaper then Qantas staff travel. So much for nice little "lurks."
"However operational requirements sometimes require cabin crew or pilots to operate from another port due to aircraft configuration changes or the start or beginning of a scheduled service. This is a common occurrence at all airlines. In Qantas it is less common with cabin crew as they can operate all different international aircraft types and also operate sometimes on domestic services. Pilots can only operate they aircraft type they are rated to fly (eg. 747-400 only) and have therefore a much higher positioning rates.
"It has a lot to do with crew scheduling. This in itself is worth a whole book in regard to incompetence. Wages are depending on your category. International Qantas has customer service managers (in charge of the flight), supervisors (in charge of economy), business first flight attendants (first and business class) and flight attendants. Rates are based on category."
And then there is the contentious issue of that international crew base in London, to be run with the assistance of labour hire group, Adecco, no doubt. "Qantas has currently overseas bases in Auckland and Bangkok. These 'little foreign slaves' earn half or less than Australian-based cabin crew."
"Conditions are third world for them as they have no rights whatsoever. "Its like "here is your roster, shut up, perform otherwise your contract will not be renewed in two to three years. "We also reserve the right to fire you anytime we think we don't like you, COURTESY OF ADECCO/ QANTAS. And these Adecco managers are gold frequent flyers on Qantas regular travellers in first and business class. Needless to say Geoff Dixon (GOD) and his mates are also chairman lounge members and get frequent flyer points for every trip they do in first class.
"And NO, does not cost them a cent. And then they use those points for family and friends to travel also free. No problem using the points for bookings there. Good isn't it?
"The proposed London base is again being forced upon Australian crew to cut costs and undermine the power of the Australian cabin crew union. I concur with your assessment about British wages. Qantas UK crew (offered to Qantas International and domestic crews initially), are Australian cabin crew (a small initial percentage has to be English) on the London base on a two year contract will (if it gets up, watch this space) be eventually replaced by English crew (pick a Leicester, Manchester or Irish accent). The lady behind this scheme is Lesley Grant, New Zealand born, with experience at Air New Zealand and Ansett!
"Finally, ALL bases have managers, assistant managers and support staff. Currently ALL senior managers pay is performance-based. Unless they can provide plans and results how to "screw" those below them financially they are out very quickly.
"Hence Geoff "(GOD)s sustainable "screwing program" of $A1.5 billion.
Qantas - an inside view
Pemberton Strong
Crikey's aviation expert
Crikey has reported extensively on Qantas in recent months. Here's a well-informed insider view on the way an Australian business icon operates.
30 July 2004
Business Index
Blinkered analysts on James Hardie
Qantas - an inside view
Crikey at the Macquarie AGM
A sleeper surfaces from Reserve Bank
Profiling CBA CEO David Murray
McGauchie's James Hardie baggage
'Dame' Margaret jumps Fairfax board
NAB: icon in distress
Foreign winners and losers in Australia
The foreign business lists
Top 50 Aussies in overseas business
Telstra is not our biggest company
As of Sunday, August 1, there will be only 19 days to the release of the Qantas result for 2003-04 and there's every sign that it will among the best the airline has reported.
But don't expect much in the way of boasting. There will more in the same vein as the letter CEO Geoff Dixon wrote to The Australian Financial Review last week (More special interest pleading from Qantas). Of course he's right, but as exporters and importers have found for years there's no such thing as a "level playing field". Its a mirage, a figment of some businessman's dream or an economists momentary flash of desperation. Even the most committed and competitive of businessman knows there's a host of things and happenings out there that will tilt the playing field against you. It's how you react and adapt that separates the moaners from those who succeed.
But regardless of the cries for special help, Qantas continues to flesh out the empire, this week announcing new services from Melbourne to Los Angeles to counter new services added by Air New Zealand, which is flying via Auckland.
And it will go some way to also countering the push by Singapore (and maybe Cathay) to fly Australia-US, which is a sleeping issue at the moment. Qantas, like all successful businesses doesn't like to have too robust a level of competition and Singapore could certainly provide that on the trans-Pacific routes, currently one of Qantas's most profitable.
And Qantas wants to succeed while having a good, old fashioned Aussie whine about the unfairness of all those "furriners".
So what have they really to complain about? Well there's the service to the city of "lurve".
No, I don't mean Las Vegas, I mean Paris, France. Recently I remarked on the Qantas decision to abandon Paris to a code share with another airline (Cathay). Here's what a well informed Crikey reader wrote in reply: " Qantas pulled out of Paris because it lost $22 million last year and similar amounts the year before. Qantas would have liked to increase its services from three a week to seven (economies of scale would have brought it into profit). However the French government and Air France prevented this."
Hmmm interesting, and there was more.
"The introduction of the new business class product and the increase of services to London (more to come) and Los Angeles was a result of business travellers again travelling after SARS and the uncertainty of terrorism (which is been countered by increased security around the worlds at airports and by governments). It also is driven by relentless competition in the premium market by all airlines."
Advice to travellers. "Frequent flyer points are used extensively throughout the network but it is a complicated issue when and how to get it. In simple terms don't try to use them in business class (say Monday morning, Friday nights, etc.) and any other busy times the suits are travelling. Off-peak is the secret."
And other issues. "Pulling out of Rome and Paris is driven by short-term strategic thinking in my opinion. The average manager's corporate life has been reduced to five years and is heavily dependent on bonuses. It also is a fact that Qantas has no twin engine long range aircraft on international routes at the moment. Most major airlines operate twin engine aircraft to build up routes new or existing ones with lower yields". (Yet its cheap international carrier, Australian Airlines is flying old Boeing 767 twin engine planes on its services. Go figure!)
"Qantas does have four airbus A330-200 twin engine long range aircraft, but these are being used on domestic sectors.
"Only GOD, CEO Geoff Dixon, knows why."
"Recently the penny dropped and the boys, Geoff, and John Borghetti, the putative successor to Dixon? wanted to convert these Airbuses to international configuration with the lovely sky beds in it. However they were told the floors in the aircraft need to be strengthen at a cost of A$65 million. Ouch. So we keep flying our only long-range twin engine aircraft on domestic routes!
"Qantas relies heavily on feeder service from British Airways in London and American Airlines in Los Angeles. The majority of future growth is directed towards those ports. Given that Qantas has its major eggs in two baskets one can only hope there is no major hiccup there, otherwise the immediate impact would be severe."
On the move to establish an international cabin crew base in Brisbane, the insider had this to say.
"Qantas international cabin crew have bases in Sydney (around 85%), and the rest in Melbourne and Perth. There are around 25% of cabin crew who commute to Sydney, Melbourne or to a lesser degree to Perth. In your article you mention cabin crew leaving in on the Gold Coast and Brisbane having a little 'lurk'.
"You imply that they travel free domestically to work". (No it’s the businesses they keep on the side while not flying) "FACT: every cabin crew member or pilot (there are hundreds of pilots who also commute from anywhere in Australia) have to pay for their ticket to their home base. In addition your are on staff travel ticket where if there is no seat available and you can't travel. There's no such thing as booking and having a confirmed seat. Standby is the word, and it is not much fun after a 12- 18 hours night/day shift tour of duty from somewhere overseas or before you are going to work":
(Pemberton Strong: But it is a lower yield to Qantas for staff to be occupying a seat, even paying for it, than a travelling member of the public who pays more.) "And how far do allowances go in Sydney where the cost of accommodation is high. The allowances don't go very far.
"We live away from Sydney because of family and friends. And the tickets aren't so much cheaper these days either then the low cost carriers.
"A Gold Coast Qantas commuter I know recently booked several flights on a low cost domestic carrier as was cheaper then Qantas staff travel. So much for nice little "lurks."
"However operational requirements sometimes require cabin crew or pilots to operate from another port due to aircraft configuration changes or the start or beginning of a scheduled service. This is a common occurrence at all airlines. In Qantas it is less common with cabin crew as they can operate all different international aircraft types and also operate sometimes on domestic services. Pilots can only operate they aircraft type they are rated to fly (eg. 747-400 only) and have therefore a much higher positioning rates.
"It has a lot to do with crew scheduling. This in itself is worth a whole book in regard to incompetence. Wages are depending on your category. International Qantas has customer service managers (in charge of the flight), supervisors (in charge of economy), business first flight attendants (first and business class) and flight attendants. Rates are based on category."
And then there is the contentious issue of that international crew base in London, to be run with the assistance of labour hire group, Adecco, no doubt. "Qantas has currently overseas bases in Auckland and Bangkok. These 'little foreign slaves' earn half or less than Australian-based cabin crew."
"Conditions are third world for them as they have no rights whatsoever. "Its like "here is your roster, shut up, perform otherwise your contract will not be renewed in two to three years. "We also reserve the right to fire you anytime we think we don't like you, COURTESY OF ADECCO/ QANTAS. And these Adecco managers are gold frequent flyers on Qantas regular travellers in first and business class. Needless to say Geoff Dixon (GOD) and his mates are also chairman lounge members and get frequent flyer points for every trip they do in first class.
"And NO, does not cost them a cent. And then they use those points for family and friends to travel also free. No problem using the points for bookings there. Good isn't it?
"The proposed London base is again being forced upon Australian crew to cut costs and undermine the power of the Australian cabin crew union. I concur with your assessment about British wages. Qantas UK crew (offered to Qantas International and domestic crews initially), are Australian cabin crew (a small initial percentage has to be English) on the London base on a two year contract will (if it gets up, watch this space) be eventually replaced by English crew (pick a Leicester, Manchester or Irish accent). The lady behind this scheme is Lesley Grant, New Zealand born, with experience at Air New Zealand and Ansett!
"Finally, ALL bases have managers, assistant managers and support staff. Currently ALL senior managers pay is performance-based. Unless they can provide plans and results how to "screw" those below them financially they are out very quickly.
"Hence Geoff "(GOD)s sustainable "screwing program" of $A1.5 billion.