Vulcan XH 558 Threads (merged)
I've watched to Vulcan thread for years, but still don't know what Dr Pleming is supposed to have done wrong. Can you, wingco, as the leading attacker, enlighten me?
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hmmm.....presided over a project that has stumbled along from year to year without a realistic business plan,without transparency, without on time accounting, issuing statements at odds with HLF, taking a whopping salary to name but a few maybe.
Sorry Winco hope I haven't nicked your thunder....
Sorry Winco hope I haven't nicked your thunder....
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If I were to make a comment
There is no on-going finance or support in place after 5 years. Each year we have seen the staff issued with redundancy notices and the begging letters stating that the Vulcan would be grounded or sold unless a certain sum is raised. This week the deadline passed without the funds being raised, but the project is on-going.
The constant threats and begging is showing diminishing returns so the next one will show even less income.
Dr Pleming has made a good living out of the project - 3 times my income - but the Vulcan is still not secured. A football manager in his position would have been sacked years ago
There is no on-going finance or support in place after 5 years. Each year we have seen the staff issued with redundancy notices and the begging letters stating that the Vulcan would be grounded or sold unless a certain sum is raised. This week the deadline passed without the funds being raised, but the project is on-going.
The constant threats and begging is showing diminishing returns so the next one will show even less income.
Dr Pleming has made a good living out of the project - 3 times my income - but the Vulcan is still not secured. A football manager in his position would have been sacked years ago
Perhaps these posters who post against the 'whip round' every year are merely stating the very obvious facts and like the pantomime season about to start in our theatres nationwide, they know the story as it's become so formulaic. There is no doubt that running an enterprise such as the Vulcan is no easy task, if done well who would berudge Pleming his wage ? However it seems as though things are never clear and to go to the line each year begging plaintively for funds from the public and their donations, well......
I think that most people that have watched XH558 in action these last few years have marvelled at the job done by the maintenance/engineering staff and volunteers to keep her in the air and if goosebumps were pounds there'd never be funding worries. That said, especially in these chaste times, to have a business plan that relies on the last minute sob story/begging drama that comes at this time of year is at best naiive, at worst reckless.
Vulcan won't be flying for too many more years due to fatigue life/certification issues, so it would be nice if every donated pound were used to it's upmost effect and that might well involve open source accounts to all the de facto shareholders (donaters) and perhaps a much reduced wage bill in certain less critical areas.
SHJ
I think that most people that have watched XH558 in action these last few years have marvelled at the job done by the maintenance/engineering staff and volunteers to keep her in the air and if goosebumps were pounds there'd never be funding worries. That said, especially in these chaste times, to have a business plan that relies on the last minute sob story/begging drama that comes at this time of year is at best naiive, at worst reckless.
Vulcan won't be flying for too many more years due to fatigue life/certification issues, so it would be nice if every donated pound were used to it's upmost effect and that might well involve open source accounts to all the de facto shareholders (donaters) and perhaps a much reduced wage bill in certain less critical areas.
SHJ
issuing statements at odds with HLF,
This is what is says in the FAQs on the Trust site...
Have the HLF been asked for more funding?
Yes, the HLF have been asked for more funding, most recently at one of our periodic review meetings with our HLF East Midlands Region representative in November 2008. We understand that further funding will not be forthcoming because the HLF do not normally provide any funding for the ongoing operating expenses of their projects: they will provide grants towards specific objectives, like returning XH558 to flight, but not for keeping her flying. Also, we understand that the money available to the HLF has been going down in recent years, owing to reducing numbers of people playing the National Lottery, and the cash being siphoned off for the London Olympics. In the HLF?s own words - we've had our fair share! (4/09)
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Croqueteer
Please tell me that you are joking when you asked this question??? You have read this thread for years and you don't know what I and many others have against Pleming? If you are serious, then you clearly know nothing aboout the TVOC fiasco and you have NOT read all of this thread!!
I don't have time to list the number of things I have against him and can only suggest that you spend some of your time reading this thread from start to finish. perhaps then you will have a better understanding of things.
colinwil
Again, you need to read yourself into this thread before spouting off. It was not I who said I would ride naked on a unicycle (I think a unicycle) with a rose in notable orrifice! If you are going to start your PPrune account off with accusations like that, do try to make certain that you know what you are talking about, it stops you making a fool of yourself. There is NOT a gang of us who want to see it scrapped - far from it. What we want is someone who is remotely competant to take the project over and run it properly instead of stumbling from one crisis to another.
dp
My understanding is that, in a statement from HLF following a FOI question, the HLF were NOT asked for more money. Clearly there is a conflict in opinion here and perhaps as someone who is clearly close to the coal face perhaps you could enlighten us. More importantly, why was the project saved when the money/timescale line was NOT achieved. Would you agree that is was a con?? It just shows another weak leadership chapetr in this joke of a project.
Andrew - no problem at all. I wish i had more time this morning to enlighten them both! But you feel free to carry on; it's a very long list!!
Winco
Please tell me that you are joking when you asked this question??? You have read this thread for years and you don't know what I and many others have against Pleming? If you are serious, then you clearly know nothing aboout the TVOC fiasco and you have NOT read all of this thread!!
I don't have time to list the number of things I have against him and can only suggest that you spend some of your time reading this thread from start to finish. perhaps then you will have a better understanding of things.
colinwil
Again, you need to read yourself into this thread before spouting off. It was not I who said I would ride naked on a unicycle (I think a unicycle) with a rose in notable orrifice! If you are going to start your PPrune account off with accusations like that, do try to make certain that you know what you are talking about, it stops you making a fool of yourself. There is NOT a gang of us who want to see it scrapped - far from it. What we want is someone who is remotely competant to take the project over and run it properly instead of stumbling from one crisis to another.
dp
My understanding is that, in a statement from HLF following a FOI question, the HLF were NOT asked for more money. Clearly there is a conflict in opinion here and perhaps as someone who is clearly close to the coal face perhaps you could enlighten us. More importantly, why was the project saved when the money/timescale line was NOT achieved. Would you agree that is was a con?? It just shows another weak leadership chapetr in this joke of a project.
Andrew - no problem at all. I wish i had more time this morning to enlighten them both! But you feel free to carry on; it's a very long list!!
Winco
Hi Winco, I know the HLF said that they hadn't been asked and Dr P said they had hence my question could the approach have been made to different offices?
It always seems as tho' I'm defending them doesn't it? That's not the case I just question where people get the info from..
With regards to the decision about funding my understanding is....
The appeal was schedule to run for the whole of October. The Trustees met [or had a conference call] last Thursday and because they were confident that the funds could be raised by last night, judging by the rate at which the daily funds were being raised, they gave the go ahead.
I assume it was scheduled for Thursday so they could give bad news by Friday if that's the way it was going to the work force, as that would have been their last working day....
Whether you believe the timing worked out so well is for you to judge!! I can be as sceptical as anybody - but I have no proof it didn't.
It always seems as tho' I'm defending them doesn't it? That's not the case I just question where people get the info from..
With regards to the decision about funding my understanding is....
The appeal was schedule to run for the whole of October. The Trustees met [or had a conference call] last Thursday and because they were confident that the funds could be raised by last night, judging by the rate at which the daily funds were being raised, they gave the go ahead.
I assume it was scheduled for Thursday so they could give bad news by Friday if that's the way it was going to the work force, as that would have been their last working day....
Whether you believe the timing worked out so well is for you to judge!! I can be as sceptical as anybody - but I have no proof it didn't.
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Speaking as an ex-Vulcan associate not living in the UK I hope to goodness that she's still flying when I next come over in 2013 (and yes, I'm doing my bit).
However, silly question, has anyone given any thought of trading on the "oohs" and "aahs" on the crowd line by walking up and down with buckets ready to receive the "Fiver to Keep Her Flying" at every appearance?
It's got to be better than Pleming's worn out strategy.
However, silly question, has anyone given any thought of trading on the "oohs" and "aahs" on the crowd line by walking up and down with buckets ready to receive the "Fiver to Keep Her Flying" at every appearance?
It's got to be better than Pleming's worn out strategy.
As far as I know we're still waiting for Wingco's naked video
I will walk around every into each Sqn crewroom at Marham, naked with a rose between my arse cheeks, singing a song of your choice if the Vulcan ever flies again.
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The trouble is, Wingco, that your emotive language makes me think there is a personal angle to this, which questions the validity of your statements. Why is collecting for the Vulcan "Begging" when collecting for a charity is not? Surely Dr Plemming's salary was decided by others, what is it, anyway? As you say, I don't know the ins and outs of the case, but very little hard fact has appeared in this thread. I'm not even a Vulcan man, four Griffins was my mount!
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HI DP, you are entirely correct that the message could have been coming from two sources. However, as Chief Executive it is behoven up you to make sure you have any public statements accurately represented. When I did the FOI request, as a former legal type bod, I drafted the questions so as to have little scope for ambiguity and sent a copy to Dr P and crew as a matter of courtesy and even spoke with him personally on the dog and bone.
It's a minor issue in the great scheme of things but does suggest "we asked and they said no" position which is not true according to the HLF.
In a previous generation on management at TVOC I asked the same questions of the lovely "Bond Girl" who declined to answer.
I seem to recall that the trustees originally, and apologies if I have this wrong, included FI's husband/ partner?
It's perturbing to see the strife and angst that the fabulous engineering crew must go through and the cyclical nature of "we're skint, save us or else by day x, we're saved, we know we can and will do better, we have a great new business/sponsorship plan that's sustainable, we're skint."
I thought I read that Dr P planned to step down, just like I thought I read 558 was going to fly for 10 seasons, now apprently he's cosy at his desk and she has 2 years left?
It's a minor issue in the great scheme of things but does suggest "we asked and they said no" position which is not true according to the HLF.
In a previous generation on management at TVOC I asked the same questions of the lovely "Bond Girl" who declined to answer.
I seem to recall that the trustees originally, and apologies if I have this wrong, included FI's husband/ partner?
It's perturbing to see the strife and angst that the fabulous engineering crew must go through and the cyclical nature of "we're skint, save us or else by day x, we're saved, we know we can and will do better, we have a great new business/sponsorship plan that's sustainable, we're skint."
I thought I read that Dr P planned to step down, just like I thought I read 558 was going to fly for 10 seasons, now apprently he's cosy at his desk and she has 2 years left?
Andrew I agree it does appear to be very rare that the same thing is quoted twice especially when talking about anything to do with figures!! I remember watching the TV report a few days before Roll Out in 2006, when they interviewed the then 3 main management personal and each one quoted a different amount required!!
Dr P did indeed say he was going to step down but a the time he was also chair of the Trust, to which of course he did step down....
Dr P did indeed say he was going to step down but a the time he was also chair of the Trust, to which of course he did step down....
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Having had contacts with the Lottery people in the past for our own little project, the rules are quite clear.
Your proposal is considered alongside other bids for money. Grants are given for capital costs not for on-going expenses. It would have been written quite clearly in the terms of the original grant when and how the money would be paid to TVOC, but that the project would not get future funding.
Part of the process is that the business plan would have been considered including how the project would become self-sufficient or have a defined end date. It would also have to demonstrate that the organisation would have income generation as part of the plan.
Finally, there should have been milestones in the project to release each stage of the funding.
Lottery funding is quite tightly controlled as it is a very politically sensitive issue. My chums tell me that they have to bear in mind the attitude of the Daily Mail headlines whenever they take a decision, but behind it all is the minister at the time.
They are using Lottery funding as a piggy-bank for their pet projects, and, for the next 2 years, that will be the Olympics.
TVOC stands little or no chance of getting further funding, and I'm sure the TVOC team have been made aware of that in very clear terms.
Your proposal is considered alongside other bids for money. Grants are given for capital costs not for on-going expenses. It would have been written quite clearly in the terms of the original grant when and how the money would be paid to TVOC, but that the project would not get future funding.
Part of the process is that the business plan would have been considered including how the project would become self-sufficient or have a defined end date. It would also have to demonstrate that the organisation would have income generation as part of the plan.
Finally, there should have been milestones in the project to release each stage of the funding.
Lottery funding is quite tightly controlled as it is a very politically sensitive issue. My chums tell me that they have to bear in mind the attitude of the Daily Mail headlines whenever they take a decision, but behind it all is the minister at the time.
They are using Lottery funding as a piggy-bank for their pet projects, and, for the next 2 years, that will be the Olympics.
TVOC stands little or no chance of getting further funding, and I'm sure the TVOC team have been made aware of that in very clear terms.
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Dated exactly a month ago?
Impressive communications. At least the staff notices are rescinded and I hope they are all able to sleep a little easier for a little longer. They don't deserve this.
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Thanks for the link. Is there something downloadable in spreadsheet format for fettling?
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dp
Thank you for the explanation of what happened last week. I understand that a statement was due to be released on Monday pm about the state of the project, but I can't find it - has it been delayed??
Croqueteer
My emotive language is displayed when I see the British public being taken for a ride. And Dr Pleming is/has and continues to take them for a ride IMHO. I have no problem whatsoever in collecting for the Vulcan. Over the years I have donated to it many times. The difference is that with the Vulcan, we have this annual ransom note saying: 'we need X by X and if we don't get it, then it's dead, finished, scrapped' and that is what frankly hacks me and very many others off.
This latest ranson comes exactly one month after the '2012 and beyond' plan was written. What's that all about? Why didn't they disclose the plan a month ago? It might have given more people an incentive to donate! But no, it didn't happen, and it is yet another example of strange management that seems to plague this project. Lack of transparancy I think is the good terminology for it
I can only suggest that you get a (large) cup of tea, sit down in a comfy chair and read this thread from start to finish. You will then see some of the goings-on that have occurred over the years and you perhaps can get an understanding of why people like myself want to see Pleming go for good, and someone with a bit more 'savvy' take his place. I think he is incompetant and I think that many of his 'right-hand men' are also incompetant, but they are still there in post. Still drawing large salaries, despite their shortcomings.
Go and put the kettle on!!
regards
Winco
Thank you for the explanation of what happened last week. I understand that a statement was due to be released on Monday pm about the state of the project, but I can't find it - has it been delayed??
Croqueteer
My emotive language is displayed when I see the British public being taken for a ride. And Dr Pleming is/has and continues to take them for a ride IMHO. I have no problem whatsoever in collecting for the Vulcan. Over the years I have donated to it many times. The difference is that with the Vulcan, we have this annual ransom note saying: 'we need X by X and if we don't get it, then it's dead, finished, scrapped' and that is what frankly hacks me and very many others off.
This latest ranson comes exactly one month after the '2012 and beyond' plan was written. What's that all about? Why didn't they disclose the plan a month ago? It might have given more people an incentive to donate! But no, it didn't happen, and it is yet another example of strange management that seems to plague this project. Lack of transparancy I think is the good terminology for it
I can only suggest that you get a (large) cup of tea, sit down in a comfy chair and read this thread from start to finish. You will then see some of the goings-on that have occurred over the years and you perhaps can get an understanding of why people like myself want to see Pleming go for good, and someone with a bit more 'savvy' take his place. I think he is incompetant and I think that many of his 'right-hand men' are also incompetant, but they are still there in post. Still drawing large salaries, despite their shortcomings.
Go and put the kettle on!!
regards
Winco
