Vulcan XH 558 Threads (merged)
The simple truth is....
It's not crying wolf - they are in serious danger of going under!!!
They have issued redunancy notices to the staff as they are legally required to do so, & it's not the first time they have had to do this.
It's not crying wolf - they are in serious danger of going under!!!
They have issued redunancy notices to the staff as they are legally required to do so, & it's not the first time they have had to do this.
yes, funding is bloody hard but the steam engines and heritage railways seem to do fairly well, infact fare much better than nostalgic aviation it seems
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Back in Geordie Land
Posts: 492
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I guess that my comment at post 2889 must have a ring of truth about it then?
Surely the time has come to call it a day on this money-gobbling fiasco?
Lets put it out of its misery for goodness sake eh?
Winco
Surely the time has come to call it a day on this money-gobbling fiasco?
Lets put it out of its misery for goodness sake eh?
Winco
Cunning Artificer
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: The spiritual home of DeHavilland
Age: 76
Posts: 3,127
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
only another £55k in 3 weeks shouldn't be a problem.
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Newcastle
Age: 54
Posts: 515
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's been going on for years and every year we (the "doubters") ask the same questions and get the same "oh but we've now changed" answer.
Every time they profess to have come up with a workable sustainable business plan and crow on about the Vulcan effect etc etc ad nauseum.
It's time it was either given to a team to run who have their thoughts, aspirations and goals founded in reality with transparency and honest or call it a bloody day.
Every time they profess to have come up with a workable sustainable business plan and crow on about the Vulcan effect etc etc ad nauseum.
It's time it was either given to a team to run who have their thoughts, aspirations and goals founded in reality with transparency and honest or call it a bloody day.
Cool Mod
Join Date: Apr 1998
Location: 18nm N of LGW
Posts: 6,185
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I shouldn't have an opinion, but I am going to have one now.
Its short and to the point as far as I am concerned and that is that Pheming(sp) should get out, resign and let in a fresh ideas man with a different view, with something that is not as stale as his ideas are and hopefully will not take any pay for his efforts. Phemings approach to the matter is suspect in the extreme.
Done!
PPP
Its short and to the point as far as I am concerned and that is that Pheming(sp) should get out, resign and let in a fresh ideas man with a different view, with something that is not as stale as his ideas are and hopefully will not take any pay for his efforts. Phemings approach to the matter is suspect in the extreme.
Done!
PPP
deltapapa
You write it as if these redundancy notices are a new thing, but this is about the third/fourth time Dr P has made the statements that he will ground the aircraft and make the team redundant if we do not provide the required amount by whatever deadline and actually issued the notices the month before said deadline, so crying wolf is a good analogy for a lot of people.
You have to feel sorry for the engineers though who really do work their fingers to the bone and most for very little except their love for the aircraft and the determination to prove that British enginering is still the best in the world. Hopefull to provide the population with an iconic aircraft that should be flying and not thrown o the scrapheap with the rest of our engineering heritage, but with management like they have got it must feel like they are just wasting their time on a thankless and stressfull journey. good luck to them for theit futures anyway.
The simple truth is....
It's not crying wolf - they are in serious danger of going under!!!
They have issued redunancy notices to the staff as they are legally required to do so, & it's not the first time they have had to do this.
It's not crying wolf - they are in serious danger of going under!!!
They have issued redunancy notices to the staff as they are legally required to do so, & it's not the first time they have had to do this.
You have to feel sorry for the engineers though who really do work their fingers to the bone and most for very little except their love for the aircraft and the determination to prove that British enginering is still the best in the world. Hopefull to provide the population with an iconic aircraft that should be flying and not thrown o the scrapheap with the rest of our engineering heritage, but with management like they have got it must feel like they are just wasting their time on a thankless and stressfull journey. good luck to them for theit futures anyway.
Exrigger
I believe I covered all your points in my other post.
Crying wolf indicates a falsehood or at best deliberately trying to mislead.
How can it be 'crying wolf' to say redundancies will be issued again - when in fact that is exactly what has happened.
They have to by law give 28 days notice, the deadline is to wind up the VTST at the end of Feb if they don't get enough money thus the notices had to be issued by 1st Feb.
and my 1st post clearly states redundancies have been issued before.........
Crying wolf indicates a falsehood or at best deliberately trying to mislead.
How can it be 'crying wolf' to say redundancies will be issued again - when in fact that is exactly what has happened.
They have to by law give 28 days notice, the deadline is to wind up the VTST at the end of Feb if they don't get enough money thus the notices had to be issued by 1st Feb.
and my 1st post clearly states redundancies have been issued before.........
Last edited by deltapapa; 9th Feb 2010 at 18:42.
Thanks for the english lesson Deltapapa, I know you mentioned at the end that this had happened before but your opening line implied that it was a first, as in 'they are in serious danger of going under', also the phrase cry wolf is as you correctly pointed out is aimed at those who consistantly make statements that are not truthfull so that when they finally tell the truth no-one believes them.
This fable has become corrupted in its use and is generally used in cases such as VTST's who state they will make people redundant and ground the aircraft if we do not give money, by a set time, when the money is not forthcoming by the first deadline you are correct that they then have to legally carry out the threat of handing out the redundancies which makes the core supporters to go into overdrive to save their friends and colleagues jobs and save the aircraft from being grounded.
This has in the past been a succesfull aproach to funding the aircraft so no-one has actually been made redundant post the threat and the actual issuing of those notices, and the aircraft still flew for the last two years. So when people say cry wolf, again you are technically correct that this is an incorrect analogy, but it is the closest and simplest that some people use rather than think of a more pertinent analogy, like possibly emotional blackmail, or possibly scaremongering to consider two possible alternatives.
I will now add one of these
as I have no intention of going off topic to far and engaging in further semantics, as I was mearly trying to explain why some people use the term 'cry wolf' with regards to your post and obviously missed the point by some distance 
. Regards ER
This fable has become corrupted in its use and is generally used in cases such as VTST's who state they will make people redundant and ground the aircraft if we do not give money, by a set time, when the money is not forthcoming by the first deadline you are correct that they then have to legally carry out the threat of handing out the redundancies which makes the core supporters to go into overdrive to save their friends and colleagues jobs and save the aircraft from being grounded.
This has in the past been a succesfull aproach to funding the aircraft so no-one has actually been made redundant post the threat and the actual issuing of those notices, and the aircraft still flew for the last two years. So when people say cry wolf, again you are technically correct that this is an incorrect analogy, but it is the closest and simplest that some people use rather than think of a more pertinent analogy, like possibly emotional blackmail, or possibly scaremongering to consider two possible alternatives.
I will now add one of these
as I have no intention of going off topic to far and engaging in further semantics, as I was mearly trying to explain why some people use the term 'cry wolf' with regards to your post and obviously missed the point by some distance . Regards ER
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Not a million miles from EGTF
Age: 68
Posts: 1,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Crying wolf indicates a falsehood or at best deliberately trying to mislead.
How can it be 'crying wolf' to say redundancies will be issued again - when in fact that is exactly what has happened.
and my 1st post clearly states redundancies have been issued before.........
How can it be 'crying wolf' to say redundancies will be issued again - when in fact that is exactly what has happened.
and my 1st post clearly states redundancies have been issued before.........
I am deeply saddened at this for hard-working and dedicated staff. I know only too well how it feels.
However, I would ask whether or not it is a project I would like to base my long-term future on. After the 2nd issue of a notice, I'd be looking for the exit, as management don't seem to be very caring as to its workers.
Worse, it seems to be using it as part of their PR.
They have to by law give 28 days notice, the deadline is to wind up the VTST at the end of Feb if they don't get enough money thus the notices had to be issued by 1st Feb.
I hope the management are aware of the unsettling effect this must be having on the excellent staff.
All I am saying is the the team deserve better, and constant begging just doesn't cut it
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Back in Geordie Land
Posts: 492
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Throughout the whole of this pathetic tale, one thing has remained constant - Dr ROBERT PLEMING. Anyone getting the message yet?
And yet again, when it gets to that time of the year when difficult questions start being asked, when he project is almost dead on its feet, those who have spent the year telling how wonderful things now are at TVOC suddenly go deep and silent and there is nobody available to answer the simplest of questions.
I haven't given for a while now and I have no intention of doing so until the good Doctor calls it a day and gets out of this project. He, I regret, is the biggest problem with TVOC and he needs to go soonest.
Would anyone from Brunters (or wherever the group is located these days) care to comment on the rumour that Dave Walton has offered to buy the aircraft back??? or am I just being silly asking such a question???!!!
And yet again, when it gets to that time of the year when difficult questions start being asked, when he project is almost dead on its feet, those who have spent the year telling how wonderful things now are at TVOC suddenly go deep and silent and there is nobody available to answer the simplest of questions.
I haven't given for a while now and I have no intention of doing so until the good Doctor calls it a day and gets out of this project. He, I regret, is the biggest problem with TVOC and he needs to go soonest.
Would anyone from Brunters (or wherever the group is located these days) care to comment on the rumour that Dave Walton has offered to buy the aircraft back??? or am I just being silly asking such a question???!!!
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Dunno, the sat nav is busted.
Age: 48
Posts: 128
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have heard that rumour but i can't say if there is any truth in it. I have had it explaind how it would work if it were to happen but it is complicated and i can't remember enough to recount it here, suffice to say that it could work. the only way to know for sure is to ask Mr Walton himself.
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: North Cornwall
Age: 73
Posts: 428
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It is amazing that we are in the same position as last year. I posted this then:
My view is still the same. A new leader is needed and was needed a year ago.
Surely the right route forward is not to let it fold but to have a change of leadership that inspires confidence so that support comes back.
Pleming has actually achieved a lot in getting the Vulcan back in the air, when so many said it couldn't be done - that is not to say that there weren't mistakes along the way in getting it into the air again.
In all my commercial life projects like this have had a change of leadership at each phase, because quite simply new skills are needed for each phase. We have had the rebuilding of XH558 we are now on to the development of the project and maintenance of income flow.
The Vulcan is back in the air, it needs now a leader who will keep it there.
Hopefully someone who is more marketing orientated and the call for support accentuates the positives of this project and what it will deliver in the future and not the perpetual "if we don't pay it will never fly again" message.
Pleming has actually achieved a lot in getting the Vulcan back in the air, when so many said it couldn't be done - that is not to say that there weren't mistakes along the way in getting it into the air again.
In all my commercial life projects like this have had a change of leadership at each phase, because quite simply new skills are needed for each phase. We have had the rebuilding of XH558 we are now on to the development of the project and maintenance of income flow.
The Vulcan is back in the air, it needs now a leader who will keep it there.
Hopefully someone who is more marketing orientated and the call for support accentuates the positives of this project and what it will deliver in the future and not the perpetual "if we don't pay it will never fly again" message.
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Back in Geordie Land
Posts: 492
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As long as Pleming is being paid the sums that he is, he will never let go of it.
This project has been a total farce for a very long time. Pleming does not have the foresight to see any potential problems, hence why the project staggers from one calamity to another, with no money and the British Public being held to ransom on each occasion.
The story has worn thin Robert, and we are sick of hearing it. It's the same story we heard this time last year, and the year before et al. If you can't hack it, then get out and hand it over to some new blood who might just have a bit more idea than you have.
Why is he still there? I just find it astonishing that this guy, who is clearly failing, is still in post.
Bubbles, thanks for the info. It is sad that yours is the only voice in the wilderness to come out of Brunters. It says it all really
This project has been a total farce for a very long time. Pleming does not have the foresight to see any potential problems, hence why the project staggers from one calamity to another, with no money and the British Public being held to ransom on each occasion.
The story has worn thin Robert, and we are sick of hearing it. It's the same story we heard this time last year, and the year before et al. If you can't hack it, then get out and hand it over to some new blood who might just have a bit more idea than you have.
Why is he still there? I just find it astonishing that this guy, who is clearly failing, is still in post.
Bubbles, thanks for the info. It is sad that yours is the only voice in the wilderness to come out of Brunters. It says it all really
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Newcastle
Age: 54
Posts: 515
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Vulcan 50th Birthday Appeal | Homepage
This home page display says it all.
Shut the doors and go home seems the only option if those figures are believable. Terrible shame for the staff and volunteers who have excelled.
Disgrace the management has got away with such shambolic organisation, communications and appalling lack of foresight and transparency.
Makes my team, Newcastle United, look like a slick well oiled customer focused business.
This home page display says it all.
Shut the doors and go home seems the only option if those figures are believable. Terrible shame for the staff and volunteers who have excelled.
Disgrace the management has got away with such shambolic organisation, communications and appalling lack of foresight and transparency.
Makes my team, Newcastle United, look like a slick well oiled customer focused business.
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: East Sussex
Age: 68
Posts: 388
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
When will those that have yet to grasp the nettle understand that no matter who is in charge, no matter how dedicated a workforce and team of supporters is in place, this project is not feasible in the long term.
It has been a fantastic effort and I cannot speak highly of enough of what has been done to prolong the life of this wonderful aircraft, but please, please do not beat yourselves up for what is a lost cause in the long term.
This is not a steam engine we are talking about, and quite frankly I find the analogy to steam engine operations mystifying. There is no comaprison in any way shape or form so please stop, we are talking about a complex aircraft which is a totally different ball game.
It has been a good run, many more have seen the Vulcan fly than many of us ever thought possible.
The USA don't want it as they know that they could never afford to keep it flying either. Why in the heck would they want to spend millions on an aircraft that means little to them. Remember that Fifi the B29 was grounded for quite a while for various reasons so don't think for one minute that the Vulcan will have an extended life in the USA.
Unless a very rich benefactor to fund to support the Vulcan Long term in the UK then lets just accept the inevitable, thank those concerned for a fantastic effort, which has failed and then can we all move on please.
It has been a fantastic effort and I cannot speak highly of enough of what has been done to prolong the life of this wonderful aircraft, but please, please do not beat yourselves up for what is a lost cause in the long term.
This is not a steam engine we are talking about, and quite frankly I find the analogy to steam engine operations mystifying. There is no comaprison in any way shape or form so please stop, we are talking about a complex aircraft which is a totally different ball game.
It has been a good run, many more have seen the Vulcan fly than many of us ever thought possible.
The USA don't want it as they know that they could never afford to keep it flying either. Why in the heck would they want to spend millions on an aircraft that means little to them. Remember that Fifi the B29 was grounded for quite a while for various reasons so don't think for one minute that the Vulcan will have an extended life in the USA.
Unless a very rich benefactor to fund to support the Vulcan Long term in the UK then lets just accept the inevitable, thank those concerned for a fantastic effort, which has failed and then can we all move on please.
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Not a million miles from EGTF
Age: 68
Posts: 1,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A harsh but realistic comment.
I still think the team will raise the necessary funding in time, but that may only be postponing the inevitable.
I still think the team will raise the necessary funding in time, but that may only be postponing the inevitable.
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: England
Posts: 118
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I spent yesterday morning sat in the nav plotters seat in XM594, the Vulcan at Newark. This is slightly irrelevant but I enjoyed it.
On topic, the cost breakdown seems extraordinary to me;
£152,000 for 'admin and management?'
£204,000 for revenue generation and VTSE costs?
£202,000 for hangar and office rental?
They all seem absolutely huge to me. How on earth are they paying £202,000 yearly for hangarage for (albeit a fairly large) aircraft and some office space. The cost of revenue generation is stunning. I'd like to see that broken down.
The website says that the VTST employs 12 people full time. When you consider that staff costs excluding aircrew is £400,000, operating costs including aircrew is £458,000, and 'management' is part of a big lump of £152,000, it seems absolutely massive.
They seem to be costs for the sake of costs. Why on earth do they predict 'education' costs at £50,000? I got a damn good education in the seat of the vulcan I was in yesterday, and I payed them for the priveledge!
I always wondered why there isn't a main sponsor for the project, but it just seems like SUCH a financial black hole.
On topic, the cost breakdown seems extraordinary to me;
£152,000 for 'admin and management?'
£204,000 for revenue generation and VTSE costs?
£202,000 for hangar and office rental?
They all seem absolutely huge to me. How on earth are they paying £202,000 yearly for hangarage for (albeit a fairly large) aircraft and some office space. The cost of revenue generation is stunning. I'd like to see that broken down.
The website says that the VTST employs 12 people full time. When you consider that staff costs excluding aircrew is £400,000, operating costs including aircrew is £458,000, and 'management' is part of a big lump of £152,000, it seems absolutely massive.
They seem to be costs for the sake of costs. Why on earth do they predict 'education' costs at £50,000? I got a damn good education in the seat of the vulcan I was in yesterday, and I payed them for the priveledge!
I always wondered why there isn't a main sponsor for the project, but it just seems like SUCH a financial black hole.
Vulcan
On the 0700 calendar news this morning:
All of the vulcan staff have been given one months notice and the aircraft will be grounded unless £800,000 can be found. Is this a case of here we go again?
All of the vulcan staff have been given one months notice and the aircraft will be grounded unless £800,000 can be found. Is this a case of here we go again?