Vulcan XH 558 Threads (merged)
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Tim,
I don't disagree with the criticism but the point has been made and doesn't need to be constantly remade.
The issue is that as a charity any job needs to be accounted for as does any expenditure. It's clear that Dr P's payments need to be justified, but so do all of them. I happen to agree that things need to change but I do not want to run a vendetta against him or anyone elsewithout them having the right of reply and having all of the facts.
Your last sniping post to bubbles is just not needed irresepective of the view points everyone holds. Getting overtly aggressive or personal to other posters or to VTST staff is just going to get the thread closed.
I don't disagree with the criticism but the point has been made and doesn't need to be constantly remade.
The issue is that as a charity any job needs to be accounted for as does any expenditure. It's clear that Dr P's payments need to be justified, but so do all of them. I happen to agree that things need to change but I do not want to run a vendetta against him or anyone elsewithout them having the right of reply and having all of the facts.
Your last sniping post to bubbles is just not needed irresepective of the view points everyone holds. Getting overtly aggressive or personal to other posters or to VTST staff is just going to get the thread closed.
I refer you all to post 1963:
Take heed!
OK! That is enough.
This witch hunt will stop forthwith.
There may be a shred of truth here and there but that is not cause to engage in sniping and backbiting - especially the winding up kind. One or two of you are pressing hard to gain home runs. Just cut it out and be constructive.
If I see one more example of this occuring again, no matter how trivial, I will ban you/he/she from participating in this thread. No warnings, no explanations - nothing - you will be gone. I trust that is fully understood.
I am sick that some good people have been driven out and are no longer contributing - I plan to get them back.
PPP
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Cool Mod - Here, and was there.
This witch hunt will stop forthwith.
There may be a shred of truth here and there but that is not cause to engage in sniping and backbiting - especially the winding up kind. One or two of you are pressing hard to gain home runs. Just cut it out and be constructive.
If I see one more example of this occuring again, no matter how trivial, I will ban you/he/she from participating in this thread. No warnings, no explanations - nothing - you will be gone. I trust that is fully understood.
I am sick that some good people have been driven out and are no longer contributing - I plan to get them back.
PPP
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Cool Mod - Here, and was there.
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Beagle hear hear!
Sorry folks, but if you read back through these posts, you'll note that I've made every effort to answer bubbles even though he simply ignores what I say and then repeats his personal remarks. It's tedious and it's annoying for other users of the thread.
Anyway, just to set the record straight (again - hopefully bubbles might read and take note this time?), I've explained my position as fully as I possibly can. I have no intention of divulging names of people who have told me much more to the story, and anyone with an ounce of intelligence will know why. It's easy for anyone to simply say "well prove this or that" but it's a pointless and stupid reaction, based on the ludicrous supposition that I'm simply making my comments for fun (or because of some bizarre personal vendetta, according to some of the idiots who make similar stupid comments about me on other sites). The only practical response I can give is the one I've given many times before - if Pleming and co. think my comments are in any way inaccurate then all they have to do is provide a shred of evidence to convince us otherwise.
Andrew might think it's pointless to continue making comments about Pleming but I entirely disagree. He's heading the project and he's responsible. Simple as that. He has a right of reply, indeed he owes it to us all (as donors and Lottery buyers) to explain where every penny has gone. That's not unresaonable, it's what he should have been doing all along! The way that the project has been (and is being) handled is bad - and that's putting it mildly. Like many other people, I think it's time that we stopped shrugging our proverbial shoulders and addressed the fundamental fact that the aircraft seems to be in imminent danger of being grounded for good, and yet a phenomenal amount of money has been poured into the project, and an awful lot of it seems to have been wasted. Inexplicably, nobody, not the aviation press, HLF or anyone else, has ventured to ask where all the money has gone, and why.
Think that's as clear as I can be isn't it?
Sorry folks, but if you read back through these posts, you'll note that I've made every effort to answer bubbles even though he simply ignores what I say and then repeats his personal remarks. It's tedious and it's annoying for other users of the thread.
Anyway, just to set the record straight (again - hopefully bubbles might read and take note this time?), I've explained my position as fully as I possibly can. I have no intention of divulging names of people who have told me much more to the story, and anyone with an ounce of intelligence will know why. It's easy for anyone to simply say "well prove this or that" but it's a pointless and stupid reaction, based on the ludicrous supposition that I'm simply making my comments for fun (or because of some bizarre personal vendetta, according to some of the idiots who make similar stupid comments about me on other sites). The only practical response I can give is the one I've given many times before - if Pleming and co. think my comments are in any way inaccurate then all they have to do is provide a shred of evidence to convince us otherwise.
Andrew might think it's pointless to continue making comments about Pleming but I entirely disagree. He's heading the project and he's responsible. Simple as that. He has a right of reply, indeed he owes it to us all (as donors and Lottery buyers) to explain where every penny has gone. That's not unresaonable, it's what he should have been doing all along! The way that the project has been (and is being) handled is bad - and that's putting it mildly. Like many other people, I think it's time that we stopped shrugging our proverbial shoulders and addressed the fundamental fact that the aircraft seems to be in imminent danger of being grounded for good, and yet a phenomenal amount of money has been poured into the project, and an awful lot of it seems to have been wasted. Inexplicably, nobody, not the aviation press, HLF or anyone else, has ventured to ask where all the money has gone, and why.
Think that's as clear as I can be isn't it?
Last edited by Tim McLelland; 10th Jan 2009 at 16:32.
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This is the (provisional) list of appearences for this year.
Vulcan to the Sky Trust - Avro Vulcan Bomber XH558 - Vulcan To The Sky Trust
Vulcan to the Sky Trust - Avro Vulcan Bomber XH558 - Vulcan To The Sky Trust
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... and still the gripes and accusations continue.
Is there any point to all this? I think we've established that everyone believes TVOC are not doing a good job or worse. But could we take that as understood now and move on?
Whatever they're doing, there's nothing we can do about it, so why keep harping-on about their alleged "crimes" and failings?
Only the HLF has sufficient legal and moral grounds to step-in and stop them, and if necessary replace them with other people. Likewise, only HLF has immediate access to huge sums of money. They're the only people that can sort-out this mess so instead of petitions, pointless emails, letters to MP's or anything else, why can't we make an orchestrated effort to campaigh for HLF to stop sitting on their hands and rescue the project, before all their (our) money is completely wasted?
... or do we just want to whine about TVOC until the Vulcan rusts away?
Is there any point to all this? I think we've established that everyone believes TVOC are not doing a good job or worse. But could we take that as understood now and move on?
Whatever they're doing, there's nothing we can do about it, so why keep harping-on about their alleged "crimes" and failings?
Only the HLF has sufficient legal and moral grounds to step-in and stop them, and if necessary replace them with other people. Likewise, only HLF has immediate access to huge sums of money. They're the only people that can sort-out this mess so instead of petitions, pointless emails, letters to MP's or anything else, why can't we make an orchestrated effort to campaigh for HLF to stop sitting on their hands and rescue the project, before all their (our) money is completely wasted?
... or do we just want to whine about TVOC until the Vulcan rusts away?
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Bubbles, I refer you to post 2002
HZ, I'm with you now! I guess Southend is always a contender for significant display acts (if they can afford them), although I seem to recall that the organisers were planning to scale-down the Southend show this year onwards?
HZ, I'm with you now! I guess Southend is always a contender for significant display acts (if they can afford them), although I seem to recall that the organisers were planning to scale-down the Southend show this year onwards?
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Tim, just give it a rest. You have made your points well enough and no matter what you think repeating it here over and over is not achieving a thing. Let it go and move on.
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I guess eastbourne cant afford them as they made a loss of over £300,000 last year, and are making it free entry again this year.
P.S. Tim, you love me really.
P.S. Tim, you love me really.
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Tim. I think the SEN airshow needs to have more not less this year as the last two years have been washed out. Even had they not been there were few a/c attending. This may well be the problem for many shows with fewer airlines and greater RAF commitments. We can only but hope?
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I quite agree, I was just repeating what I read about the show some time back. Given the way that show participation and organisation is going, I guess it's a minor miracle if a show of any sort takes place these days. As for whether the Vulcan will take part, I think that's anybody's guess at this stage. I have a feeling that if 558 flies again at all, then I guess it might be the earlier shows of the year that stand a chance of seeing her, so you never know...
Andrew, I also agree that repetition is pointless, but what am I supposed to do when I keep getting the same questions thrown my way?! Anyway, I think the argument has run its course as I haven't seen anyone else add so much as a ha'peth of input. The same situation seems to apply on similar threads on other sites too judging from what I can see. Page upon page of waffle but nobody seems to have any interest in addressing the fundamental problems of what to do. I've explained my two points as fully as I can (ie- either get to the bottom of precisely what is going-on at TVOC with all our money, or look at getting the aircraft out of the UK while it's still possible) and I haven't seen any other alternative ideas - anywhere! It's not very encouraging is it, bearing in mind that Pleming's latest "now or never" target was supposedly the end of this month.
Incidentally, what did you folks think of XH558 Press Office appearing on some forums (did the press release turn up here too?). I couldn't quite see what the aim of the press release was though. It was claimed that the intention was to "spread the word" but when the release has been sent to plane spotter sites, I would assume that the word is already well and truly spread to them? As one might expect, there's a statement that no communication channels or replies will be possible so it doesn't sound like we're going to get any further down this exciting new avenue, does it? Then again, on the basis of what has been said on the various sites, I don't imagine that direct communication with TVOC's "press office" would achieve anything in any case - can you imagine the dialogue?!
Andrew, I also agree that repetition is pointless, but what am I supposed to do when I keep getting the same questions thrown my way?! Anyway, I think the argument has run its course as I haven't seen anyone else add so much as a ha'peth of input. The same situation seems to apply on similar threads on other sites too judging from what I can see. Page upon page of waffle but nobody seems to have any interest in addressing the fundamental problems of what to do. I've explained my two points as fully as I can (ie- either get to the bottom of precisely what is going-on at TVOC with all our money, or look at getting the aircraft out of the UK while it's still possible) and I haven't seen any other alternative ideas - anywhere! It's not very encouraging is it, bearing in mind that Pleming's latest "now or never" target was supposedly the end of this month.
Incidentally, what did you folks think of XH558 Press Office appearing on some forums (did the press release turn up here too?). I couldn't quite see what the aim of the press release was though. It was claimed that the intention was to "spread the word" but when the release has been sent to plane spotter sites, I would assume that the word is already well and truly spread to them? As one might expect, there's a statement that no communication channels or replies will be possible so it doesn't sound like we're going to get any further down this exciting new avenue, does it? Then again, on the basis of what has been said on the various sites, I don't imagine that direct communication with TVOC's "press office" would achieve anything in any case - can you imagine the dialogue?!
Last edited by Tim McLelland; 11th Jan 2009 at 03:13.
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The repetition here is getting very boring!
Time after time the same questions and the same assertions about the running of the project, unless you live on another planet, is making people bored and are now no longer taking part in the debate and fast losing interest.
I suggest that it is time for those who wish to get answers from TVOC do it with specific complaints to the Charity Commissioners and the HLF. If they deem there has been a mis-use of funds or donations they will deal with it pretty snappily. TVOC is accountable to both.
Right now this thread has lost its way. And it has lost some important contributors. Judging by some comments I have received they are fed-up to the back teeth with the unending bickering.
So, it is time for those who wish to tackle the 'problem' to do so and leave the thread for news and interest in XH558 otherwise this thread will wither and die.
Time after time the same questions and the same assertions about the running of the project, unless you live on another planet, is making people bored and are now no longer taking part in the debate and fast losing interest.
I suggest that it is time for those who wish to get answers from TVOC do it with specific complaints to the Charity Commissioners and the HLF. If they deem there has been a mis-use of funds or donations they will deal with it pretty snappily. TVOC is accountable to both.
Right now this thread has lost its way. And it has lost some important contributors. Judging by some comments I have received they are fed-up to the back teeth with the unending bickering.
So, it is time for those who wish to tackle the 'problem' to do so and leave the thread for news and interest in XH558 otherwise this thread will wither and die.
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That's easy to say, but you're probably failing to appreciate that there are lots of people who send comments my way too, agreeing entirely with my view.
But enough already. If the purpose of a thread is to suite the tastes of specific individuals, then it's not worth contributing to it. That's not a debate, it's a waste of time.
But enough already. If the purpose of a thread is to suite the tastes of specific individuals, then it's not worth contributing to it. That's not a debate, it's a waste of time.
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Tim,
You just don't know when to give up do you. Follow your own earlier advice. I don't actually disagree with your points, just the way they are made.
I for one as an early critic of this and former regimes as VTST offered to go to see them, put the questions, post them unedited and see what could be done. I also did an FOI request to HLF and when I asked for anyone to send me details of any questions they wanted answered I got precisely zero replies.
I did get to speak to HLF and to Dr P who was very forthcoming and it seemed like their might be a change of direction. I think there has, althought it is tiny in comparison to what is needed. So I will repeat the offer. I work in the legal game and well used to dealing with tricky questions, accounting and legal issues so I will gladly volunteer, IF that is what anyone particularly wants (i.e. more than just Tim). If not, that's fine, I have plenty to do otherwise.
To paraphrase what the mod says, "let's sh*t or get off the pot".
You just don't know when to give up do you. Follow your own earlier advice. I don't actually disagree with your points, just the way they are made.
I for one as an early critic of this and former regimes as VTST offered to go to see them, put the questions, post them unedited and see what could be done. I also did an FOI request to HLF and when I asked for anyone to send me details of any questions they wanted answered I got precisely zero replies.
I did get to speak to HLF and to Dr P who was very forthcoming and it seemed like their might be a change of direction. I think there has, althought it is tiny in comparison to what is needed. So I will repeat the offer. I work in the legal game and well used to dealing with tricky questions, accounting and legal issues so I will gladly volunteer, IF that is what anyone particularly wants (i.e. more than just Tim). If not, that's fine, I have plenty to do otherwise.
To paraphrase what the mod says, "let's sh*t or get off the pot".
Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
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BEagle. I thought for a moment, there, you were going to adopt the Naval tradition of quoting Scripture chapter and verse for brevity. 
Tim McLelland. You really have made your point very well; several times. The ones who still disagree will simply never agree. Know the limits of reasoned argument.
Tim McLelland. You really have made your point very well; several times. The ones who still disagree will simply never agree. Know the limits of reasoned argument.
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Educational Hangar visits
I have been PMed by Dennis to request I remove this post.... therefore I have done as asked.... he says " He feels this is not doing the project any good..."
U.M
I have been PMed by Dennis to request I remove this post.... therefore I have done as asked.... he says " He feels this is not doing the project any good..."
U.M
Last edited by Delta15; 19th Jan 2009 at 21:44.
