Vulcan XH 558 Threads (merged)
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Who knows? I can't imagine that anyone would show any interest in getting involved at present, but when the current bunch finally go, there must be a chance that some people might throw their proverbial hats into the ring. Let's face it, they wouldn't have to do much to improve on the achievements of the existing management.
Had to laugh at the news story today about some painting that's been "saved for the nation" at a cost of fifty million wasn't it? Seems that people were all-too willing to put their hands into their pockets for that, and yet the good Doctor claims that there's no money out there to be had because of the credit crunch. Bet there would be a much better response if we had Brian Sewell on TV wringing his hands with enthusiasm over 558 (like only he can), instead of Dr.Pleming's glittering TV appearances which, rather than inspiring me to throw money at the project, made me feel like wanting to bite my right arm off.
Had to laugh at the news story today about some painting that's been "saved for the nation" at a cost of fifty million wasn't it? Seems that people were all-too willing to put their hands into their pockets for that, and yet the good Doctor claims that there's no money out there to be had because of the credit crunch. Bet there would be a much better response if we had Brian Sewell on TV wringing his hands with enthusiasm over 558 (like only he can), instead of Dr.Pleming's glittering TV appearances which, rather than inspiring me to throw money at the project, made me feel like wanting to bite my right arm off.
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ouch
''I have to agree withe Harrier and Mark36, just what is going on at the sharp end????? All that ever happens is they have another appeal and expect the club to bail them out again, seems they only ever want to get enough donations to pay their salaries each month, and what thanks do the club get.............. hardly a mention anywhere except on the site. You almost want the project to tumble just far enough to get the current management out and get some people in who can do the job right.''
How much more damning could this post by someone who obviously cares enough to be involved to whatever extent ?
This really sounds like the voice of people who matter in this project.
How much more damning could this post by someone who obviously cares enough to be involved to whatever extent ?
This really sounds like the voice of people who matter in this project.
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Just to be clear on the painting Tim, £7.4m out of £50m came from non-governmental donations, not the whole wad. By definition the arts lovers (being stereotypical) are more affluent than 558 supporters I would suggest.
Indeed also worth noting that said Titian has been on the wall in the UK for over 200 years and not much is going to change, in the context of a long term investment it's nowhere near as risky!
Indeed also worth noting that said Titian has been on the wall in the UK for over 200 years and not much is going to change, in the context of a long term investment it's nowhere near as risky!
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I will post this here, as I am sure it will get removed from the TVOC forum.
I had a look at the accountd filed with the Charity commission up to July 2007, and was amazed that they counted 15 employees, and the wages and salaries totalled £699,435.00 someone somewhere is well paid.
I had a look at the accountd filed with the Charity commission up to July 2007, and was amazed that they counted 15 employees, and the wages and salaries totalled £699,435.00 someone somewhere is well paid.
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The problem with these fundraising ideas is that they, without fail, appear small-beer and a bit "village fete". A day for 30-odd people at a shooting range, the risible "Welcome Home Day" last autumn which featured apple-bobbing as one of the attractions on it's official poster, a stall at a Christmas market with not enough stock, and now a couple of chaps driving a car round to a few museums. A multi-million pound project HAS to think big, and BE big. The national media, and even the local press aren't going to drop everything to film a couple of enthusiasts in a Subaru driving to a few wet, cold aviation museums.
These "risable" events as you call them are the results of a lor of very hard work from a few individuals, i was involved with both the market and the welcome home day and i know that Jane who organised them has put a huge amount of effort into arranging thses events, and both were more succesfull than you give credit for. I also know that the constant knocking of people on these fora leave the ordinary members such as jane who give thier all and non more so than Jane come to think of it, are left wondering why they bother. It would be interesting to read what if any contributions many of the detracters on here and elswhere have made while pilloring the efforts of others.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Bubble I know what Dan was getting at.
I was involved in fundraising running a casino. It took 4-5 people, 5 hours or so, and we raised perhaps £4 per hour per person. We didn't raise much in a year.
Then we set up a concert. It took 30 people at about 10 hours each and we netted over £6000 or £20 per hour. The difference was the labour was delivered over a short time frame and was 5 times as effective.
I was involved in fundraising running a casino. It took 4-5 people, 5 hours or so, and we raised perhaps £4 per hour per person. We didn't raise much in a year.
Then we set up a concert. It took 30 people at about 10 hours each and we netted over £6000 or £20 per hour. The difference was the labour was delivered over a short time frame and was 5 times as effective.
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Pledge Video
Copying this off another forum, since I am told yet another posting has been delayed in moderation????????
Posted eleswhere from XH558 Press Office:
With many thanks to one of our dedicated supporters, an official
PLEDGE VIDEO has been posted to YouTube.
Please see: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=JaBajcF9toE
It reminds us of what we are fighting for.
Any support you can give will be much appreciated.
Thank you.
Any Press or Media wishing more information should contact: Richard Clarke - 07714 898548
For Sponsorship Opportunities please contact: Michael Trotter – 07803 141483
Posted eleswhere from XH558 Press Office:
With many thanks to one of our dedicated supporters, an official
PLEDGE VIDEO has been posted to YouTube.
Please see: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=JaBajcF9toE
It reminds us of what we are fighting for.
Any support you can give will be much appreciated.
Thank you.
Any Press or Media wishing more information should contact: Richard Clarke - 07714 898548
For Sponsorship Opportunities please contact: Michael Trotter – 07803 141483
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I viewed the Pledge Video.
I saw it as a 'threat' video and not a 'pledge' video.
Has someone 'kidnapped' the aircraft and holding it to ransom?
I believe the word 'please' was used just 3 times.
Our, We, You, Your came across (to me) as a. To claim ownership, and b. To incite guilt feelings to non-owners.
As an outsider, I'm not convinced.
I saw it as a 'threat' video and not a 'pledge' video.
Has someone 'kidnapped' the aircraft and holding it to ransom?
I believe the word 'please' was used just 3 times.
Our, We, You, Your came across (to me) as a. To claim ownership, and b. To incite guilt feelings to non-owners.
As an outsider, I'm not convinced.
Last edited by taxydual; 4th Feb 2009 at 05:49.
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I have to say whilst the effort is worthy the message is very ill advised. Yet another them and us pitch in the mould of all things tvoc related and their merry band of loyal followers.
Instead of reaching out and selling the benefits of a shared resource it just alienates bystanders with an interest.
Shame.
Instead of reaching out and selling the benefits of a shared resource it just alienates bystanders with an interest.
Shame.
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To be fair Andrew the video has been put together,yet again by a club member and had no involment from the the trust although i do believe it needed there seal of approval
As for the trust and there loyal band of supporters, don't you believe it.
Yes there are members who walk round with blindfolds on and see no wrong in the trust but there are many of us who feel as you do that we are alienated by the trust and they have no interest in there members other than to use them as a cash cow and i'm sure this opinion will not change unless they become more transparent which i wont hold my breath waiting for
However as enthusiast's we all have one thing in common and that is to keep her in the air and that is why inspite of the trust i and others will continue to support the project untill the fat lady sings although i must admit that won't be long the way things are going.
As for the trust and there loyal band of supporters, don't you believe it.
Yes there are members who walk round with blindfolds on and see no wrong in the trust but there are many of us who feel as you do that we are alienated by the trust and they have no interest in there members other than to use them as a cash cow and i'm sure this opinion will not change unless they become more transparent which i wont hold my breath waiting for
However as enthusiast's we all have one thing in common and that is to keep her in the air and that is why inspite of the trust i and others will continue to support the project untill the fat lady sings although i must admit that won't be long the way things are going.
Last edited by mark36; 3rd Feb 2009 at 23:18.
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Well I know how you mean Andrew but surely, even if the aircraft is technically owned by the whole trust, surely somebody must be the sole legal owner, otherwise nobody has any ultimate authority? Perhaps it's still David Walton?
According to G-INFO, Vulcan to the Sky Trust are the registered owners of G-VLCN aka XH558:
GINFO Search Results | Aircraft Register | Safety Regulation
GINFO Search Results | Aircraft Register | Safety Regulation
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Hmm... that's a bizarre set-up then if there is nobody with overall control. Do they have to arrange a committee meeting to discuss every tiny point then? if so, where are the minutes of these meetings one wonders?
If everything has to be a group decision, it's little wonder that bu**er-all happens!
If everything has to be a group decision, it's little wonder that bu**er-all happens!
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Tim,
Somewhere in the dusty recesses of my memory, from some research I did back just before Felicity left, there are two tiers in operation...
The Vulcan To The Sky Trust owns the airframe and the HLF grant was made to them - like many trusts, they appoint members who have an oversight of such funds as are raised in the Trusts name but 'day to day' running is usally left to an individual.
The Vulcan Operating Company is (in this case) the 'individual' - as a UK limited company it has a legal 'existence' and so can be employed by the Trust to perform the day to day operating i.e. kicking the tires and lighting the fires. As in all these situations - the duties of the Trust can only be discharged according to the information that flows between them and the chosen individual. If that information isn't timely or effective then complications may arise... As to the actual legal relationship as to who 'owns' TVOC and so has the ability to call them to account - then Andrew may be able to answer that but I suspect some legalese whereby the Trust owns a majority shareholding or some such.
In basic terms - the Trust raises the money (by whatever means) and gives it to TVOC to spend who then must account for that back to the Trust. One might be cynical and say that this provides a nice and handy legal separation in terms of responsibility for 'good housekeeping'.
Sat outside of this relationship is the Vulcan to the Sky Club (or the good old Vulcan Club as I joined back in 1994!) which raises money using the efforts of its own members (like most supporter clubs) and a few traders. Any funds raised by the club are then given as donations to the Trust above on the presumption they are spent on returning (and maintaining) the airframe to flight. When the green light was given - the club helped the redemption of the intial pledges (the Display Associate/Return to Flight scheme - I know, I was one - still waiting to see my first flight as promised, my badge and my name on the airframe but hey!).
I think confusion arose because Rusty from the Club became an employee of TVOC so some perceived the bodies to be the same - yet they are not as evidenced over the last couple of weeks as the Club tries its damnedest again to raise money.
I have sat and watched this sorry saga for the last few years (and corresponded with Andrew C about it) and with Subscriptions to the Club and pledges and so on - I've given about £500 so far but have decided now - no more until I see some 'thanks' for my efforts so far (and yes - I do know some have given far more). I know £500 isn't a lot in the greater scheme of things but it's the new TV I haven't got or the dishwasher I fancy...
The club is always grateful for what money I give, but VTST/TVOC - no 'Thank you' note for my £250 (and certainly no more mention of my contribution since - there used to be website list) and no invite to first flight, I even offered to help put a crew on-site to stage the rollout on completion - didn't even get a return eMail (and to establish credentials - the crew I offered lit Coventry's Millennium Eve party).
"No one person takes a salary above £xk..." but we pay £x,000 to a consulting company, folk blacklisted for speaking up, engineers who worked hard on the project not welcome on-site after they finished because they looked at someone the wrong way etcetera etcetera. This isn't the way to run an organisation that depends so heavily on goodwill (and for goodwill - look at Marshalls and the write off they put on their books for their contribution to the project)
Now I watch from the sidelines, hoping something changes - that money does get raised (and spent on flight not on new computers or cars) and that I do get to see 558 in the air with my own eyes and not on a screen.
Edited to add a link
Somewhere in the dusty recesses of my memory, from some research I did back just before Felicity left, there are two tiers in operation...
The Vulcan To The Sky Trust owns the airframe and the HLF grant was made to them - like many trusts, they appoint members who have an oversight of such funds as are raised in the Trusts name but 'day to day' running is usally left to an individual.
The Vulcan Operating Company is (in this case) the 'individual' - as a UK limited company it has a legal 'existence' and so can be employed by the Trust to perform the day to day operating i.e. kicking the tires and lighting the fires. As in all these situations - the duties of the Trust can only be discharged according to the information that flows between them and the chosen individual. If that information isn't timely or effective then complications may arise... As to the actual legal relationship as to who 'owns' TVOC and so has the ability to call them to account - then Andrew may be able to answer that but I suspect some legalese whereby the Trust owns a majority shareholding or some such.
In basic terms - the Trust raises the money (by whatever means) and gives it to TVOC to spend who then must account for that back to the Trust. One might be cynical and say that this provides a nice and handy legal separation in terms of responsibility for 'good housekeeping'.
Sat outside of this relationship is the Vulcan to the Sky Club (or the good old Vulcan Club as I joined back in 1994!) which raises money using the efforts of its own members (like most supporter clubs) and a few traders. Any funds raised by the club are then given as donations to the Trust above on the presumption they are spent on returning (and maintaining) the airframe to flight. When the green light was given - the club helped the redemption of the intial pledges (the Display Associate/Return to Flight scheme - I know, I was one - still waiting to see my first flight as promised, my badge and my name on the airframe but hey!).
I think confusion arose because Rusty from the Club became an employee of TVOC so some perceived the bodies to be the same - yet they are not as evidenced over the last couple of weeks as the Club tries its damnedest again to raise money.
I have sat and watched this sorry saga for the last few years (and corresponded with Andrew C about it) and with Subscriptions to the Club and pledges and so on - I've given about £500 so far but have decided now - no more until I see some 'thanks' for my efforts so far (and yes - I do know some have given far more). I know £500 isn't a lot in the greater scheme of things but it's the new TV I haven't got or the dishwasher I fancy...
The club is always grateful for what money I give, but VTST/TVOC - no 'Thank you' note for my £250 (and certainly no more mention of my contribution since - there used to be website list) and no invite to first flight, I even offered to help put a crew on-site to stage the rollout on completion - didn't even get a return eMail (and to establish credentials - the crew I offered lit Coventry's Millennium Eve party).
"No one person takes a salary above £xk..." but we pay £x,000 to a consulting company, folk blacklisted for speaking up, engineers who worked hard on the project not welcome on-site after they finished because they looked at someone the wrong way etcetera etcetera. This isn't the way to run an organisation that depends so heavily on goodwill (and for goodwill - look at Marshalls and the write off they put on their books for their contribution to the project)
Now I watch from the sidelines, hoping something changes - that money does get raised (and spent on flight not on new computers or cars) and that I do get to see 558 in the air with my own eyes and not on a screen.
Edited to add a link
Last edited by iank; 5th Feb 2009 at 13:50.
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I know of a certain recruitment agency that had a very hard time getting paid for the contractors used by VTST which almost caused the whole situation to get into serious trouble. What do they spend the cash on?
The management side of things has always been a joke back when I was a memeber of their forum there was a lot of talking down to and negative comments towards club memebers. Then they turn round and ask for your money!
After watching the lastest pledge video not only did I find it laughable but the bully tactics are being used again as if its our fault that there is no money. Sorry but I didn't realise that we had to pay a sort of child maintenence towards the whole project.
Unless the quality of the approach to fund seeking isn't raised I can't see them hitting their target, especially in under a month, £1 million really is a lot to ask for. I hate my negative attitude towards the whole thing as I really do love the plane but with such amateurish PR and a management team with what seems to have no idea on what its doing (so far) I can't really see this going anywhere.
I hope I'm proved wrong, I hope she graces the skies again, even if it is for one more season but unfortunately I think this maybe could be it and it would be such a shame.
Marc
The management side of things has always been a joke back when I was a memeber of their forum there was a lot of talking down to and negative comments towards club memebers. Then they turn round and ask for your money!
After watching the lastest pledge video not only did I find it laughable but the bully tactics are being used again as if its our fault that there is no money. Sorry but I didn't realise that we had to pay a sort of child maintenence towards the whole project.
Unless the quality of the approach to fund seeking isn't raised I can't see them hitting their target, especially in under a month, £1 million really is a lot to ask for. I hate my negative attitude towards the whole thing as I really do love the plane but with such amateurish PR and a management team with what seems to have no idea on what its doing (so far) I can't really see this going anywhere.
I hope I'm proved wrong, I hope she graces the skies again, even if it is for one more season but unfortunately I think this maybe could be it and it would be such a shame.
Marc
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what's with all the questions about 'who owns 558'?
the National Trust own countless properties in the UK - on behalf of us, the Nation. in principle, it is exactly the same with 558 - she has to be officially owned on paper by some entity or other, for the benefit of the Nation - aka us!
so, just like you and i both own 'a slice' of Chartwell, St.Michael's Mount, etc etc, we also own 'a slice' of 558
edit - i really hope that everyone can distinguish between "The Vulcan to the Sky Trust" and "The Vulcan to the Sky Club"
the youtube video has been put together by one of the dedicated, passionate and proactive CLUB members, which is NOT the same as it being something put out by the TRUST.
the Club has several thousand members/supporters, many of whom work tirelessly, and UNPAID, to promote 558 and the Club as much as possible. without such support, 558 would never have returned to flight at all.
every penny the Club makes (from membership fees, stall sales, etc) goes toward paying for 558. even if (God forbid) the whole project goes to the wall, there is no reason why the Club can't continue - it was there before the Trust was formed and is a totally separate entity.
among the Club ranks are some very passionate and capable people who CHOOSE to help promote their cause; that, in my book, should be applauded, rather than consistently slagged off!
any dispute about the Trust's effectiveness has no bearing whatsoever on the activities of the Club or its members - one of whom, I'm proud to say, is ME!
sm
sm
the National Trust own countless properties in the UK - on behalf of us, the Nation. in principle, it is exactly the same with 558 - she has to be officially owned on paper by some entity or other, for the benefit of the Nation - aka us!
so, just like you and i both own 'a slice' of Chartwell, St.Michael's Mount, etc etc, we also own 'a slice' of 558
edit - i really hope that everyone can distinguish between "The Vulcan to the Sky Trust" and "The Vulcan to the Sky Club"
the youtube video has been put together by one of the dedicated, passionate and proactive CLUB members, which is NOT the same as it being something put out by the TRUST.
the Club has several thousand members/supporters, many of whom work tirelessly, and UNPAID, to promote 558 and the Club as much as possible. without such support, 558 would never have returned to flight at all.
every penny the Club makes (from membership fees, stall sales, etc) goes toward paying for 558. even if (God forbid) the whole project goes to the wall, there is no reason why the Club can't continue - it was there before the Trust was formed and is a totally separate entity.
among the Club ranks are some very passionate and capable people who CHOOSE to help promote their cause; that, in my book, should be applauded, rather than consistently slagged off!
any dispute about the Trust's effectiveness has no bearing whatsoever on the activities of the Club or its members - one of whom, I'm proud to say, is ME!
sm
sm
Last edited by saracenman; 4th Feb 2009 at 18:55.
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Saracenman, the short answer to your question is because I'm interested to know whether there is, ultimately, one person who effectively has the legal final say as to what does or doesn't happen. If there really is nobody in control then it's little wonder that they're doing such a rotten job.
I'm encouraged to read both here and on the Flypast forum that quite a few other people have taken the time to express their opinions which seem very similar to mine. Clearly, I'm not the only person that thinks TVOC are not the great team that people have claimed. I don't know how many times I have to say it but it really is this simple - how much money has Pleming been paid - for doing what? Does anyone seriously think this is acceptable? Personally I think it stinks. For heaven's sake what is he doing all this time? What does he do all day with all that money? Is issuing a plea for donations every few months really the best he can do? A chimpanzee could do better.
What kind of set-up is it where the management hide away, say nothing and appear to do nothing, while Club members race about the country with collecting cans and some guy has to make a home video on Youtube? It's just ridiculous.
The best thing that can happen would be for the project to fold, let these idiots disappear, let Pleming go make his salary somewhere else, and then hopefully some others might finally come along who propose to take the project seriously again.
I'm encouraged to read both here and on the Flypast forum that quite a few other people have taken the time to express their opinions which seem very similar to mine. Clearly, I'm not the only person that thinks TVOC are not the great team that people have claimed. I don't know how many times I have to say it but it really is this simple - how much money has Pleming been paid - for doing what? Does anyone seriously think this is acceptable? Personally I think it stinks. For heaven's sake what is he doing all this time? What does he do all day with all that money? Is issuing a plea for donations every few months really the best he can do? A chimpanzee could do better.
What kind of set-up is it where the management hide away, say nothing and appear to do nothing, while Club members race about the country with collecting cans and some guy has to make a home video on Youtube? It's just ridiculous.
The best thing that can happen would be for the project to fold, let these idiots disappear, let Pleming go make his salary somewhere else, and then hopefully some others might finally come along who propose to take the project seriously again.
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If the project fails the ownership issues and failed HLF project (as in the long term project not return to flight) might well preclude any rescue attempt.
If you wish it and it comes true it may be the worst outcome.
If you wish it and it comes true it may be the worst outcome.