Vulcan to the Sky, The End? (Merged)
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and what the hell do you think I am doing ? trying to get some answers so that the whole thing can move forward not just sit and stagnate and rot on the jacks which is precisely what will happen if there aren't big changes.
I give as much as I can afford every month as well as buying and donating at air shows. Are you throwing money into their bottomless pit ? If not, why not ? If you are, don't you care what they are doing with it ?
I give as much as I can afford every month as well as buying and donating at air shows. Are you throwing money into their bottomless pit ? If not, why not ? If you are, don't you care what they are doing with it ?
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Open Offer Re: Vulcan
Tell you what, here's an offer :
I will write to Felicity tomorrow by email and by post and request a meeting at her earliest. If she is prepared to meet and answer questions, I will happily travel to meet her and ask any questions that any of the posters on this forum or donors wish to have asked.
I will post TVOC's answers verbatim here and happily give TVOC previous sight of any questions that people want asked, if they wish.
Apart from bearing any costs in meeting, I'll throw in an extra £100 as a gesture of goodwill for them taking the time to talk and answer the questions.
If anyone else wants to come, I'd gladly do that and if say 2 or 3 others were prepared to join me it would add to the impetus to get clarity.
If anyone wants to pose any questions, PM me. If anyone strongly objects to this, let me know.
If they refuse to talk or answer any questions, you will draw your own conclusions I am sure.
I will write to Felicity tomorrow by email and by post and request a meeting at her earliest. If she is prepared to meet and answer questions, I will happily travel to meet her and ask any questions that any of the posters on this forum or donors wish to have asked.
I will post TVOC's answers verbatim here and happily give TVOC previous sight of any questions that people want asked, if they wish.
Apart from bearing any costs in meeting, I'll throw in an extra £100 as a gesture of goodwill for them taking the time to talk and answer the questions.
If anyone else wants to come, I'd gladly do that and if say 2 or 3 others were prepared to join me it would add to the impetus to get clarity.
If anyone wants to pose any questions, PM me. If anyone strongly objects to this, let me know.
If they refuse to talk or answer any questions, you will draw your own conclusions I am sure.
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sounds like a good idea,
one question I think would be useful to know the answer to given the general skepticism about the financial viability of a resturn to display flight is :
What happens to 558 if the project folds in its current financial position ?
and as a supplementary
If the answer is then she'll be scrapped then whats the minimum needed to avoid that eventuality and return her to taxi-ing (assuming thats viable at all) ?
Perhaps then it might be interesting to talk about a plan B approach thats more positive than scrapping the aircraft but perhaps more financially possible than a return to flight ?
one question I think would be useful to know the answer to given the general skepticism about the financial viability of a resturn to display flight is :
What happens to 558 if the project folds in its current financial position ?
and as a supplementary
If the answer is then she'll be scrapped then whats the minimum needed to avoid that eventuality and return her to taxi-ing (assuming thats viable at all) ?
Perhaps then it might be interesting to talk about a plan B approach thats more positive than scrapping the aircraft but perhaps more financially possible than a return to flight ?
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Having read these boards and this thread for a while now, it does seem to me that the people who do most of the criticising and decrying of the Vulcan return to flight project are also in general the people who are making the most noise about it.
andrewmcharlton,
How do you expect to be taken seriously about being passionate about this project working when all you seem to do with your posts is moan, gripe, bitch and snip about it. If you can show me any comments that you have made that are in anyway supportive (besides your oft trotted out line of "I'd love to proved wrong and see it fly but........") I would genuinely be surprised.
You say in one of your posts that "If now isn't the time to question the management team and what is going on, tell me when is?" Perhaps that may be the case, but sniping on a public forum is not really questioning the management team is it? You appear to take small snippets from here and there and concoct your own conclusions, then pass it off as unquestionably true. Your comment of "Would you like me to stop donating as well as having an opinion" says a lot about you. I wholeheartedly agree with Whitworth's reply to you. What are you donating for? So you can be a Martyr, or out of a genuine desire to see the aircraft fly again?
Winco,
I most certainly would not say andrewmcharlton is in the majority with his opinions and viewpoints. Perhaps if you consider yourself, The Swinging Monkey and him to be a majority, he may be. It would appear that little could be said to you to make you change what appear to be deep rooted beliefs about this project, but I would be interested to know your views on exactly what you feel is a complete farce about the programme, and how you, yourself would have operated and managed it so much better? They do say hindsight is a wonderful thing.
I am a little concerned that people feel the need to comment here with such vitriol, on a subject that they clearly know so little about. How many of you naysayers have actually taken the trouble to actually find out the current situation from the horses mouth, short of taking the rehashed "facts" from other peoples negative posts, and regurgitating them as indisputable facts. Granted, more could, and should probably have been done to keep the website up to date, as there is an awful lot of misinformation out there at the minute, but surely, if people are truly as concerned as they purpote to be, prior to unleashing yet another post about what an enormous waste of money and effort the project has been, a phonecall to TVOC, or a visit to the hangar would clear a lot of issues up.
Flipflopman
andrewmcharlton,
How do you expect to be taken seriously about being passionate about this project working when all you seem to do with your posts is moan, gripe, bitch and snip about it. If you can show me any comments that you have made that are in anyway supportive (besides your oft trotted out line of "I'd love to proved wrong and see it fly but........") I would genuinely be surprised.
You say in one of your posts that "If now isn't the time to question the management team and what is going on, tell me when is?" Perhaps that may be the case, but sniping on a public forum is not really questioning the management team is it? You appear to take small snippets from here and there and concoct your own conclusions, then pass it off as unquestionably true. Your comment of "Would you like me to stop donating as well as having an opinion" says a lot about you. I wholeheartedly agree with Whitworth's reply to you. What are you donating for? So you can be a Martyr, or out of a genuine desire to see the aircraft fly again?
Winco,
I most certainly would not say andrewmcharlton is in the majority with his opinions and viewpoints. Perhaps if you consider yourself, The Swinging Monkey and him to be a majority, he may be. It would appear that little could be said to you to make you change what appear to be deep rooted beliefs about this project, but I would be interested to know your views on exactly what you feel is a complete farce about the programme, and how you, yourself would have operated and managed it so much better? They do say hindsight is a wonderful thing.
I am a little concerned that people feel the need to comment here with such vitriol, on a subject that they clearly know so little about. How many of you naysayers have actually taken the trouble to actually find out the current situation from the horses mouth, short of taking the rehashed "facts" from other peoples negative posts, and regurgitating them as indisputable facts. Granted, more could, and should probably have been done to keep the website up to date, as there is an awful lot of misinformation out there at the minute, but surely, if people are truly as concerned as they purpote to be, prior to unleashing yet another post about what an enormous waste of money and effort the project has been, a phonecall to TVOC, or a visit to the hangar would clear a lot of issues up.
Flipflopman
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I admit to being one of the naysayers, but my concerns are:
(a) That this airframe will be lost to posterity when this project comes to its inevitable conclusion and
(b) The enormous amounts of money that the project diverts from other worthy restoration and preservation projects.
Lets see now. There are 98 Air Displays on the 2006 calendar (that includes Farnborough and RIAT which are bi-annual events and the Mall flypast). £1.2m divided by 98 gives us £12,250 per appearance if the Vulcan appeared at every one. So we can probably count out events like the Sywell Chipmunk Fly-in, Woburn DH Moth Club Rally or the Dawlish Carnival and Airshow. For obvious reasons it might be a good idea to steer clear of the Ashton Park International Balloon Festival too!
So, we are left with at most 63 potential appearances - that's £20,000 pounds each on average. Some displays could certainly afford that and more, but most of the smaller ones would find it a struggle. Can airshow organisers really afford that much money to bring a Vulcan to their display? I personally don't know the answer, but has anybody in the VTTS produced the CBA? If so, where is it and if not, why not?
(a) That this airframe will be lost to posterity when this project comes to its inevitable conclusion and
(b) The enormous amounts of money that the project diverts from other worthy restoration and preservation projects.
Lets see now. There are 98 Air Displays on the 2006 calendar (that includes Farnborough and RIAT which are bi-annual events and the Mall flypast). £1.2m divided by 98 gives us £12,250 per appearance if the Vulcan appeared at every one. So we can probably count out events like the Sywell Chipmunk Fly-in, Woburn DH Moth Club Rally or the Dawlish Carnival and Airshow. For obvious reasons it might be a good idea to steer clear of the Ashton Park International Balloon Festival too!
So, we are left with at most 63 potential appearances - that's £20,000 pounds each on average. Some displays could certainly afford that and more, but most of the smaller ones would find it a struggle. Can airshow organisers really afford that much money to bring a Vulcan to their display? I personally don't know the answer, but has anybody in the VTTS produced the CBA? If so, where is it and if not, why not?
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Flipflop there are no doubt others who have not felt the urge to join the current round of skirmishing.
Blacksheep overlooked the overseas airshow circuit too. I would say it is a racing certainty that it would do the big European air shows but of course that all eats hours and drinks fuel.
RIAT is however annual.
Blacksheep overlooked the overseas airshow circuit too. I would say it is a racing certainty that it would do the big European air shows but of course that all eats hours and drinks fuel.
RIAT is however annual.
Here's a suggestion, troops. Rather than merge the two threads, why not leave them as they are. Then that other one called 'Vulcan to the Sky - the End', with its negative connotations, could be for everyone who wants to whinge and generally beat themselves into a frazzle of self-righteous indignation about the way the whole project has been run. I’m thinking here of people like Winco, AndrewMCharlton and The Swinging Monkey, but not exclusively, you understand.
This thread, with its rather more upbeat idea of ‘Not Dead Yet’, might be for the people who actually think that there is still a last chance to make this whole thing succeed - and who feel that they shouldn’t give up yet.
I guess I know which thread I’m planning to read. That said, I’m not suggesting that the project isn’t in pretty dire straits - I know it is - but I am suggesting that Tim McClelland is right when he says “it's worth trying to save the project a little while longer..... We can but try.” Thanks for that, Tim.
airsound
This thread, with its rather more upbeat idea of ‘Not Dead Yet’, might be for the people who actually think that there is still a last chance to make this whole thing succeed - and who feel that they shouldn’t give up yet.
I guess I know which thread I’m planning to read. That said, I’m not suggesting that the project isn’t in pretty dire straits - I know it is - but I am suggesting that Tim McClelland is right when he says “it's worth trying to save the project a little while longer..... We can but try.” Thanks for that, Tim.
airsound
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airsound,
Thats a good idea, you keep this forum going and convince yourself that all will be OK, great. And let me say that I for one hope you are right.
However, the fact is that myself, Mr Charlton and Mr Monkey are being honest and realistic. I would suggest you are not!
The Winco
Thats a good idea, you keep this forum going and convince yourself that all will be OK, great. And let me say that I for one hope you are right.
However, the fact is that myself, Mr Charlton and Mr Monkey are being honest and realistic. I would suggest you are not!
The Winco
PPP - OK, but can we have the positive title, and not the negative one please?
Winco - you mean 'honest and realistic' like Chamberlain and Halifax? As opposed to dogged but chancy, like Churchill and Dowding?
airsound
Winco - you mean 'honest and realistic' like Chamberlain and Halifax? As opposed to dogged but chancy, like Churchill and Dowding?
airsound
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Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator
Flipflop there are no doubt others who have not felt the urge to join the current round of skirmishing.
Blacksheep overlooked the overseas airshow circuit too. I would say it is a racing certainty that it would do the big European air shows but of course that all eats hours and drinks fuel.
RIAT is however annual.
Blacksheep overlooked the overseas airshow circuit too. I would say it is a racing certainty that it would do the big European air shows but of course that all eats hours and drinks fuel.
RIAT is however annual.
I suggest you do some reading before posting
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Operate outside of UK airspace? It can be done.
f) Permit to Fly: Any purpose, other than public transport or unless expressly permitted aerial work, specified on the Permit to Fly.
NOTE: The Air Navigation Order Article 8(2)(e) restricts an aircraft in the respect of which a Permit to Fly has been issued to flights beginning and ending in the United Kingdom. The CAA may consider granting an exemption under Article 127 from this part of the Order. Flights over or into another country by an aircraft in respect of which either a Special Category Certificate of Airworthiness or a Permit to Fly has been issued and, in the case of a Permit to Fly, an exemption has been granted, will normally require the permission of the Authority of that country.
f) Permit to Fly: Any purpose, other than public transport or unless expressly permitted aerial work, specified on the Permit to Fly.
NOTE: The Air Navigation Order Article 8(2)(e) restricts an aircraft in the respect of which a Permit to Fly has been issued to flights beginning and ending in the United Kingdom. The CAA may consider granting an exemption under Article 127 from this part of the Order. Flights over or into another country by an aircraft in respect of which either a Special Category Certificate of Airworthiness or a Permit to Fly has been issued and, in the case of a Permit to Fly, an exemption has been granted, will normally require the permission of the Authority of that country.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Whitworth, rather than trawl through what is a very depressing thread, I believe the permit to fly issue was put to death somewhat earlier.
Examples, and I do not know if they are actual PTF, are the Shackleton ferried across to the States and Sally B that goes in to Europe.
Examples, and I do not know if they are actual PTF, are the Shackleton ferried across to the States and Sally B that goes in to Europe.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Originally Posted by whitworth
How many aircraft, operating on a Permit To Fly, do you know of that can operate outside of UK airspace ( CAP 733, chapter 6, para 4)?
I suggest you do some reading before posting
I suggest you do some reading before posting
Yes, Him
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A slightly different reply from the lottery folk, received overnight:
Dear Mr G
Thank you for your email. The Vulcan to the Sky Trust was awarded a Heritage Lottery Fund (HLF) grant of £2.73million in June 2004. This grant is for the restoration of the Avro Vulcan Bomber XH558, plans for it to fly for another 10-15 years and for it to be kept at the Imperial War Museum in Duxford. An accompanying education programme is also planned which will tell the story of the Cold War.
The Vulcan to the Sky Trust is doing a terrific job restoring the Vulcan Bomber and we have been impressed with their ability to stick to the proposed timetable for getting the aircraft up and running. However, the Trust has let us know that costs have escalated and it is having problems securing additional funding.
We are currently in discussion with the Trust as to how it can best take the project forward. Whilst we sympathise with their financial difficulties, it would be unlikely that we could offer any further support having already awarded a substantial grant.
Regards
Clare Henderson
Information Manager
Heritage Lottery Fund
Direct line: 020 7591 6044
Dear Mr G
Thank you for your email. The Vulcan to the Sky Trust was awarded a Heritage Lottery Fund (HLF) grant of £2.73million in June 2004. This grant is for the restoration of the Avro Vulcan Bomber XH558, plans for it to fly for another 10-15 years and for it to be kept at the Imperial War Museum in Duxford. An accompanying education programme is also planned which will tell the story of the Cold War.
The Vulcan to the Sky Trust is doing a terrific job restoring the Vulcan Bomber and we have been impressed with their ability to stick to the proposed timetable for getting the aircraft up and running. However, the Trust has let us know that costs have escalated and it is having problems securing additional funding.
We are currently in discussion with the Trust as to how it can best take the project forward. Whilst we sympathise with their financial difficulties, it would be unlikely that we could offer any further support having already awarded a substantial grant.
Regards
Clare Henderson
Information Manager
Heritage Lottery Fund
Direct line: 020 7591 6044
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So the HLF calls it a substantial award. The biggest mistake that the The Vulcan to the Sky Trust made would seem to be not asking for enough money from the HLF in the first place. When you see the size of the awards granted to some of the projects http://www.hlf.org.uk/English/Articl...ectinfocus.htm
that have been made it palls into very small fry.
Ever visited the Tank Museum? Last year we drove past on a fine October afternoon to see no more than 20 to 30 cars in the car park. Added to this they receive substantial help from the MOD I quote “The minister was told how the MoD was already playing an important role in The Museums development plans. Jim Knight said; "The development scheme has been made possible by the generosity of The MoD. As landlords, they have guaranteed The Museum security of tenure for a peppercorn rent in an agreement saving The Museum several million pounds." http://www.tankmuseum.co.uk/news/pr_...um_040105.html
Add to this the very many museums etc that the Army still have on active bases all supported by their Regiments where do we go wrong?
that have been made it palls into very small fry.
Ever visited the Tank Museum? Last year we drove past on a fine October afternoon to see no more than 20 to 30 cars in the car park. Added to this they receive substantial help from the MOD I quote “The minister was told how the MoD was already playing an important role in The Museums development plans. Jim Knight said; "The development scheme has been made possible by the generosity of The MoD. As landlords, they have guaranteed The Museum security of tenure for a peppercorn rent in an agreement saving The Museum several million pounds." http://www.tankmuseum.co.uk/news/pr_...um_040105.html
Add to this the very many museums etc that the Army still have on active bases all supported by their Regiments where do we go wrong?
I've just received the 2006-7 RAeS lecture programme for our local branch. On 21 Sep 06 Dr Robert Pleming is giving the Strawford Lecture entitled 'Vulcan to the Sky'. The venue is the RAF Cosford Museum and the start time is 1900.
Originally Posted by ACW599
On 21 Sep 06 Dr Robert Pleming is giving the Strawford Lecture entitled 'Vulcan to the Sky'.
Originally Posted by whitworth
How many aircraft, operating on a Permit To Fly, do you know of that can operate outside of UK airspace ( CAP 733, chapter 6, para 4)?
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I wonder if I might remind readers/posters that while this argument rolls along, the Vulcan project is still heading towards an untimely closure at the end of this month. Could we get our priorities sorted and look at ways of finding the team some more cash? As far as I know, there's only one possible solution and thats more help from HLF, so what are we going to do? Moan and gripe until the project closes down, or put some pressure on HLF to cough-up some more cash, so that we have a project to argue about?
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Tim, I think there is a message coming through from the various posts here. ffrom your POV I suspect the trend is negative.