Vulcan to the Sky, The End? (Merged)
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Sheffield
Posts: 927
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I fear we might go round in proverbial circles here, but I've tried to be as concise as possible. Approximately 250k is needed to keep the restoration project going. If it isn't found, the project ends at the end of this month. Theoretically, it could be re-started at a later date but I think we all know that once it stops, it's never going to re-start.
If this money is found, the aircraft will probably fly early next year. Naturally, more money is then needed to keep the aircraft flying, but the project rests on the support of sponsors. Pleming accepts that PR and promotions have been their downfall, but they still believe (probably quite rightly) that once the aircraft flies, sponsors will come forward.
Okay it's a gamble, but it's preferable to seeing the whole project collapse after so much work and so much money. That would just be a complete waste, and frankly I think it would be a disgrace if the HLF people allowed their money to be thrown-away by refusing to stump-up just a little bit more. But somebody will have to convince them of their stupidity...
If this money is found, the aircraft will probably fly early next year. Naturally, more money is then needed to keep the aircraft flying, but the project rests on the support of sponsors. Pleming accepts that PR and promotions have been their downfall, but they still believe (probably quite rightly) that once the aircraft flies, sponsors will come forward.
Okay it's a gamble, but it's preferable to seeing the whole project collapse after so much work and so much money. That would just be a complete waste, and frankly I think it would be a disgrace if the HLF people allowed their money to be thrown-away by refusing to stump-up just a little bit more. But somebody will have to convince them of their stupidity...
Last edited by Tim McLelland; 4th Aug 2006 at 22:47.
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Sheffield
Posts: 927
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I quite agree that Marshalls are being astonishingly mean about this project. I'm even more astonished at Rolls Royce. As for BAe, I think we've all accepted for a long time that they ought to give the project some support and by accepting liability I guess they have, so at least they've done something. Marshalls and RR should hang their heads in shame.
But what about David Walton? Why did he buy the Vulcan if he now sees fit to charge huge amounts of money to the people who are trying to succeed where he failed? Without his fees they would already have anough money to proceed...
You have to admire the way that people claim to be supporting this project whilst quietly pocketing huge sums of money. What a tragedy.
Re- the above message, I quite agree - let's badger the HLF, as they have it within their capability to save this project incredibly easily.
But what about David Walton? Why did he buy the Vulcan if he now sees fit to charge huge amounts of money to the people who are trying to succeed where he failed? Without his fees they would already have anough money to proceed...
You have to admire the way that people claim to be supporting this project whilst quietly pocketing huge sums of money. What a tragedy.
Re- the above message, I quite agree - let's badger the HLF, as they have it within their capability to save this project incredibly easily.
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Sheffield
Posts: 927
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Okay, we have three weeks to keep this project on the rails. You can do something. Cut and paste this message and send it to:-
[email protected]
I wish to add my name to the long list of enthusiasts, aviators, historians and countless other members of the public who wish to support the HLF's funding of TVOC's programme to restore and fly a Vulcan bomber aircraft.
This project requires a further £250,000 in order to succeed. The HLF has already supprted this project admirably but without this additional cash (before the end of this month) the project will collapse. This message is a direct plea to HLF to release a further £250,000 to TVOC in order that this outstanding project can reach fruition.
Add your name/address
If enough of us make a fuss, we could make a difference.
[email protected]
I wish to add my name to the long list of enthusiasts, aviators, historians and countless other members of the public who wish to support the HLF's funding of TVOC's programme to restore and fly a Vulcan bomber aircraft.
This project requires a further £250,000 in order to succeed. The HLF has already supprted this project admirably but without this additional cash (before the end of this month) the project will collapse. This message is a direct plea to HLF to release a further £250,000 to TVOC in order that this outstanding project can reach fruition.
Add your name/address
If enough of us make a fuss, we could make a difference.
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Sheffield
Posts: 927
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Okay, we have three weeks to keep this project on the rails. You can do something. Cut and paste this message and send it to:-
[email protected]
I wish to add my name to the long list of enthusiasts, aviators, historians and countless other members of the public who wish to support the HLF's funding of TVOC's programme to restore and fly a Vulcan bomber aircraft.
This project requires a further £250,000 in order to succeed. The HLF has already supprted this project admirably but without this additional cash (before the end of this month) the project will collapse. This message is a direct plea to HLF to release a further £250,000 to TVOC in order that this outstanding project can reach fruition.
Add your name/address
If enough of us make a fuss, we could make a difference.
[email protected]
I wish to add my name to the long list of enthusiasts, aviators, historians and countless other members of the public who wish to support the HLF's funding of TVOC's programme to restore and fly a Vulcan bomber aircraft.
This project requires a further £250,000 in order to succeed. The HLF has already supprted this project admirably but without this additional cash (before the end of this month) the project will collapse. This message is a direct plea to HLF to release a further £250,000 to TVOC in order that this outstanding project can reach fruition.
Add your name/address
If enough of us make a fuss, we could make a difference.
Now I'm totally confused.
VOC themselves are saying that £1m must be raised over the next 4 weeks in order for the project to continue. This seems to make sense, as £1.2m seems to be the figure being quoted to get the rebuild finished and airtests carried out.
"If £1M can be identified and raised over the next four weeks, it may still be possible to move forward to meet the target of flying for the Falklands Commemoration and the 2007 Air Display season."
http://www.tvoc.co.uk/index2.php
Yet Tim McLelland tells us that the target is £250k, supposedly straight from Dr Pleming himself.
I must say that this situation does seem typical of the rather muddled messages coming from VOC over the years.
Does ANYONE out there know the true situation?
VOC themselves are saying that £1m must be raised over the next 4 weeks in order for the project to continue. This seems to make sense, as £1.2m seems to be the figure being quoted to get the rebuild finished and airtests carried out.
"If £1M can be identified and raised over the next four weeks, it may still be possible to move forward to meet the target of flying for the Falklands Commemoration and the 2007 Air Display season."
http://www.tvoc.co.uk/index2.php
Yet Tim McLelland tells us that the target is £250k, supposedly straight from Dr Pleming himself.
I must say that this situation does seem typical of the rather muddled messages coming from VOC over the years.
Does ANYONE out there know the true situation?
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Sheffield
Posts: 927
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think I explained what was necessary a couple of messages back? Yes it is a very muddles presentation, but let's not cloud the issue with the wider funding saga, as we've been over this many times before. Arguing at this stage would be counter-productive and we need to do something, otherwise in three weeks from now we'll just be muttering pointlessly about what might have been, don't you think?
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Plymouth
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It might be helpful if we had useable email addresses for those other parties - Walton's, Rolls Royce, Marshall's, etc., so that we can make a suitable request to them, too.
FeiJi Fancier.
FeiJi Fancier.
I feel sorry for Richard Branson. Every time a project is in need of cash, everyone says "Call the Virgin guy". I've seen his name mentioned on a number of forums about the Vulcan. Give the guy a break. He's very busy.
Next you'll call him up when you have car problems....
"Ullo Richard? Yeah could you spare some cash? It's me car this time.. No? But it's a British classic...yeah yeah it's got three wheels. That's right, just like Mr Bean... oh... oh.... no I don't have Rowan Atkinson's telephone number... Ullo? Richard?"
Next you'll call him up when you have car problems....
"Ullo Richard? Yeah could you spare some cash? It's me car this time.. No? But it's a British classic...yeah yeah it's got three wheels. That's right, just like Mr Bean... oh... oh.... no I don't have Rowan Atkinson's telephone number... Ullo? Richard?"
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Having already put so much cash into the project, it seems crazy that they can't add just a little bit more to see it through - if they don't, then all of their cash is wasted.
Whilst I feel very sorry for the people involved, and for the possibility that the Vulcan may not fly, you do have to ask yourself "Am I being taken for a ride?"
I'm sure that you are not. However there comes a time when enough is enough, and that giving "Just anover fiver Guv....." might simply be too much, regardless of how much you may have already thrown into the hole.
I wish the Project the best of luck, but you must understand why those 'Tight B@stards' may no longer wish to part with any more money. Their accounts are not always overflowing...
I'm sure that you are not. However there comes a time when enough is enough, and that giving "Just anover fiver Guv....." might simply be too much, regardless of how much you may have already thrown into the hole.
I wish the Project the best of luck, but you must understand why those 'Tight B@stards' may no longer wish to part with any more money. Their accounts are not always overflowing...
Originally Posted by Tim McLelland
Arguing at this stage would be counter-productive and we need to do something, otherwise in three weeks from now we'll just be muttering pointlessly about what might have been, don't you think?
Why, at the eleventh hour, such a change of heart?
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: .
Age: 57
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by forget
Am I alone in being constantly baffled by this whole saga? XM558 flew into Bruntingthorpe so it was already in half way reasonable nick, and has been hangared since then. It is not a complicated aircraft. It may have been when it was on QRA - but not now. It’s a four jet with basic hydraulics for gear, brakes, speed brakes, nose wheel steering - and PFCU’s for flight control surfaces. The electrics are 50’s technology but now that the NBS and ECM have gone the aircraft has a huge excess of amps available - generators are not a critical item - lose one and you wouldn’t notice.
And I hear that several zero time inhibited engines are on hand, and on the books. There may have been areas of corrosion that needed attention - but why these vast sums of money to get the wheels off the deck again. Apart from a conventional service of hydraulic components and PFCU’s about the biggest non-routine job I would have expected would be some re-wiring in critical areas. And what’s it cost to re-certify two bang seats?
I’m left with a feeling of the ‘man in the street’, the punter, being taken for a ride here. I’d be pleased to be convinced otherwise, but it’ll be difficult. Anyone got any real numbers on costs. I did see a listing somewhere that mentioned several thousand to service a ‘beam compass’ - which, I suspect, supports my point.
The word ‘restoration’ keeps popping up. It ain’t a ‘restoration’, or at least it shouldn’t be - as I said, it flew in………….
And I hear that several zero time inhibited engines are on hand, and on the books. There may have been areas of corrosion that needed attention - but why these vast sums of money to get the wheels off the deck again. Apart from a conventional service of hydraulic components and PFCU’s about the biggest non-routine job I would have expected would be some re-wiring in critical areas. And what’s it cost to re-certify two bang seats?
I’m left with a feeling of the ‘man in the street’, the punter, being taken for a ride here. I’d be pleased to be convinced otherwise, but it’ll be difficult. Anyone got any real numbers on costs. I did see a listing somewhere that mentioned several thousand to service a ‘beam compass’ - which, I suspect, supports my point.
The word ‘restoration’ keeps popping up. It ain’t a ‘restoration’, or at least it shouldn’t be - as I said, it flew in………….
When the aircraft arrived at its current abode, it was , all but, out of life.
The definition of Complex resides with the CAA. Things like mach trim, auto-stab and having no manual reversion of the flying controls all go to putting the aircraft in the Complex category. ( There are a lot of other items, which, if you want, I can go into ).
BAe required that, on top of the standard major, a huge amount of additional structural inspections were carried out. I believe this was to provide the CAA with the confidence that the aircraft was still sound.
EVERY system on the aircraft, hydraulic, pneumatic, oxygen etc has had to be removed and the pipelines flushed to ensure the cleanliness. This is because, although hangared for the last however long, the systems have been empty of their respective media.
I could go on, but, hopefully, this will go some way to explaining why the project if far more complex and time consuming than the average person would think
Nixor ut Ledo
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: In a Beaut of a State
Posts: 499
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, I've bashed off my email as suggested by Tim - although I suspect they won't take a lot of notice of an ex-pat. So all the rest of you guys (and gals) do that first and let that hurdle fall before you continue with your gloom and doom messages.
IT'S GOT TO BE WORTH A TRY !
IT'S GOT TO BE WORTH A TRY !
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: 58-33N. 00-18W. Peterborough UK
Posts: 3,040
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Whitworth, I suppose a three paragraph opinion on this subject must be simplistic - but your response rather proves my point. You say ‘Things like mach trim, auto-stab and having no manual reversion of the flying controls all go to putting the aircraft in the Complex category.
Question. At what airspeed, below 558’s maximum intended operating altitude, does Mach Trim kick in? If it never will then why is it still (an expensive) functional part of the aircraft.
You say; EVERY system on the aircraft, hydraulic, pneumatic, oxygen etc has had to be removed and the pipelines flushed to ensure the cleanliness.
Hydraulics and pneumatics OK, but when will 558’s display crew need oxygen. If they never will, then the O2 system could have been removed.
Beagle tells us that most of the antique avionics are being replaced by more reliable, modern systems. I’m curious to know just what is being done here. If Marshall’s has been tasked to produce CAA Approved Mod Bulletins to install the wiring and racks for ‘new’ avionics then the eye-watering charges will have sucked a huge amount from the pot.
For what it’s worth, a sensible route would be (in my opinion) to take a 70’s or 80’s ARINC equipped airliner being scrapped and use the top quality factory produced wiring harnesses, racks and boxes for a couple of VHF’s, a Transponder and decent low range Rad Alt. I imagine the UHF, Intercomm etc etc is still fitted so what else is needed on the avionics front, apart from a GPS to help get you there. (Please don’t tell me they’re changing the Attitude and Heading systems!)
My point is; the CAA appears to have decided that every system on the aircraft must be fully operational or it ain’t going. Someone please tell me this isn’t so. Please tell me that a realistic MEL was agreed on that removed everything not needed for a low level, low speed display aircraft.
Whitworth says his post ‘will go some way to explaining why the project if far more complex and time consuming than the average person would think’.
This average person thinks the project if far more complex and time consuming than it should be. This average person spent seven years with Vulcans, Coningsby, Cottesmore and Waddington, involved with wiring and the bits that hang off the end of it and this average person sees a lily being over gilded to point where it may well suffocate - if a lily can suffocate.
Question. At what airspeed, below 558’s maximum intended operating altitude, does Mach Trim kick in? If it never will then why is it still (an expensive) functional part of the aircraft.
You say; EVERY system on the aircraft, hydraulic, pneumatic, oxygen etc has had to be removed and the pipelines flushed to ensure the cleanliness.
Hydraulics and pneumatics OK, but when will 558’s display crew need oxygen. If they never will, then the O2 system could have been removed.
Beagle tells us that most of the antique avionics are being replaced by more reliable, modern systems. I’m curious to know just what is being done here. If Marshall’s has been tasked to produce CAA Approved Mod Bulletins to install the wiring and racks for ‘new’ avionics then the eye-watering charges will have sucked a huge amount from the pot.
For what it’s worth, a sensible route would be (in my opinion) to take a 70’s or 80’s ARINC equipped airliner being scrapped and use the top quality factory produced wiring harnesses, racks and boxes for a couple of VHF’s, a Transponder and decent low range Rad Alt. I imagine the UHF, Intercomm etc etc is still fitted so what else is needed on the avionics front, apart from a GPS to help get you there. (Please don’t tell me they’re changing the Attitude and Heading systems!)
My point is; the CAA appears to have decided that every system on the aircraft must be fully operational or it ain’t going. Someone please tell me this isn’t so. Please tell me that a realistic MEL was agreed on that removed everything not needed for a low level, low speed display aircraft.
Whitworth says his post ‘will go some way to explaining why the project if far more complex and time consuming than the average person would think’.
This average person thinks the project if far more complex and time consuming than it should be. This average person spent seven years with Vulcans, Coningsby, Cottesmore and Waddington, involved with wiring and the bits that hang off the end of it and this average person sees a lily being over gilded to point where it may well suffocate - if a lily can suffocate.
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: East Midlands
Posts: 477
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Mike51
VOC themselves are saying that £1m must be raised over the next 4 weeks in order for the project to continue. This seems to make sense, as £1.2m seems to be the figure being quoted to get the rebuild finished and airtests carried out.
Originally Posted by Vulcan558club website
That sum, though, is small compared with the £1,200,000 still needed to complete the aircraft’s restoration, its ground tests, and its air tests, so that it could be handed back to the Trust sometime in the spring of 2007.
Originally Posted by Tim McLelland
Approximately 250k is needed to keep the restoration project going. If it isn't found, the project ends at the end of this month... Naturally, more money is then needed to keep the aircraft flying... They still believe (probably quite rightly) that once the aircraft flies, sponsors will come forward... Let's not cloud the issue with the wider funding saga...
Is is £200-250K, £1M or £1.2M?
You've GOT to consider the wider funding issue. Anything else is just likely to result in yet another crisis in a month or two's time - another crisis that will be even more difficult to recover from than the current one.
I want to see it fly. But how much is this f**king thing really going to cost to get to the airshow circuit, and how much is it going to cost to run it thereafter? What contingency funds are available, in addition to the funding needed to get it onto the air show circuit, to cover for further unexpected problems?
Private donations may dribble in, but until there's clarity over how much its going to cost to fly it, how much its going to cost to put it on the show circuit, and how much its going to operate from there on, I really don't see any commercial sponsors in their right mind investing. And my opinion is that until that same information is forthcoming, we're all wasting our own money making further donations ourselves.
No more time for messing around, no more time for shelling out a few pounds now and burying heads in the sand regarding the longer term future, no more time for running this project relying on the emotions of those who would just like to see it fly. Time to reassess. Time to put in place a realistic fully costed and risk assessed plan for now to airshow and beyond with adequate contingency - this is the only way the project stands a realistic change of attracting the realistic investment in needs to get it to fruition.
Andy
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Sheffield
Posts: 927
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by spekesoftly
Until very recently, you have been relentlessly critical of Dr Pleming, the TVOC, and even expressed adverse comment about one of their pilots.
Why, at the eleventh hour, such a change of heart?
Why, at the eleventh hour, such a change of heart?
Regardless of the peculiar (and uncovincing) stories we've read, at least Pleming has taken the time to specifically answer all of my questions and even he accepts that they've not done the best of jobs in publicising and promoting the project. He also freely admits that there have been unforseen costs. Unfortunately he's also unwell at the moment (going into hospital next week) so he's rather out of the loop at a critical time.
So whilst there is much that should be investigated and dicussed, it just seems counter-productive to be worrying about the details, including all of the above discussions on the aircraft's complexity, when there will be nothing to discuss in three weeks, unless the project can be saved.
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Sheffield
Posts: 927
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I strongly urge everyone to cut n paste my message to the HLF people, and send it to all your friends. As far as I can see, this is the only way in which we could have some direct influence on this project and save it at the proverbial last hour.
It costs you nothing, other that possibly a relatively small lump of Lottery cash that will otherwise be wasted on some hair-brained arts scheme for one-legged Bosnian monkeys with learning disabilities. Let's not get diverted on an argument about the rights and wrongs, the futility of the project, or worry about the future. The point is, the long and expensive programme is going to be written-off in three weeks, unless somebody miraculously stumps-up 250k or (more practically) we can persuade the HLF to "up their investment" slightly. I think I know which route seems to be the most practical!
It costs you nothing, other that possibly a relatively small lump of Lottery cash that will otherwise be wasted on some hair-brained arts scheme for one-legged Bosnian monkeys with learning disabilities. Let's not get diverted on an argument about the rights and wrongs, the futility of the project, or worry about the future. The point is, the long and expensive programme is going to be written-off in three weeks, unless somebody miraculously stumps-up 250k or (more practically) we can persuade the HLF to "up their investment" slightly. I think I know which route seems to be the most practical!
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Englandshire, mostly.
Posts: 324
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't see HLF helping the Vulcan out at all Tim, it ain't going to happen.
Having read most of th available litterature on the project, two aspect keeps pushing itself to the forefront... Bad management & the lack of a realistic timeframe. Just my opinion.
I hate to say it however, I think the project is a dead duck.
Having read most of th available litterature on the project, two aspect keeps pushing itself to the forefront... Bad management & the lack of a realistic timeframe. Just my opinion.
I hate to say it however, I think the project is a dead duck.
I wonder whether any movie makers know that the world's only flyable nuclear bomber will probably soon be in airworthy condition? And that 2 others in taxying condition also exist......
Must be scope for some sort of movie? Corrupt African dictator threatens UK expats and their interests in peaceful neighbour nation; HMG too weak to act as no assets ("Well, the SAS is busy in Afghanistan and Iraq - and neither the Navy nor RAF have anything capable of flying that far these days") and worried about 'other interests in the Big Picture', so won't intervene. Dictator lives in unassailable bunker under typical palace. Group of ex-pats finds out about Vulcans and makes plan to steal one, using ancient but hugely sympathetic aircrew. Base secured 'somewhere in N Africa' for refuelling and fitting of a massive bunker-busting conventional bomb. Vulcan is liberated from Bruntingthorpe at dead of night, follows an airliner across Europe, then descends to low level over the Med and lands at N African base. (Various confused ATC shots, jammed fighter radars etc). Later takes off and flies to target at low level, then pops up to height to drop bomb - huge explosion, collapse of palace into bunker, endex for dictator and liberation for locals. Vulcan makes surprise landing at ASI. Meanwhile, HMG totally surprised, claims to know nothing, condemns attack. House in uproar, change of government after vote of no confidence. Back to ASI, aircrew under open arrest are told to make themselves presentable. Unmarked jet lands (long range A319 or similar), stuffy politician announces that they've caused HMG much embarrassment etc etc - then a 'recognisable' prince jumps out, says "Yes, well, that's as maybe but my grandmother is extremely happy" - awards various honours etc. Says "Shall we go?"; "Yes sir, I'll make sure the aircraft will be ready in an hour" says pompous politician.. "Not you, minister, I'm talking to these chaps - I think we'll take the Vulcan home!" Final scene is 558 flying down the Mall.
Yes, yes, very cheesy and Boy's Own, I know. But those 'almost possible' movies (like the very early Bond movies) are so much more interesting than rubbish like 'Firefox' and 'Independence Day'.
5% please!
Must be scope for some sort of movie? Corrupt African dictator threatens UK expats and their interests in peaceful neighbour nation; HMG too weak to act as no assets ("Well, the SAS is busy in Afghanistan and Iraq - and neither the Navy nor RAF have anything capable of flying that far these days") and worried about 'other interests in the Big Picture', so won't intervene. Dictator lives in unassailable bunker under typical palace. Group of ex-pats finds out about Vulcans and makes plan to steal one, using ancient but hugely sympathetic aircrew. Base secured 'somewhere in N Africa' for refuelling and fitting of a massive bunker-busting conventional bomb. Vulcan is liberated from Bruntingthorpe at dead of night, follows an airliner across Europe, then descends to low level over the Med and lands at N African base. (Various confused ATC shots, jammed fighter radars etc). Later takes off and flies to target at low level, then pops up to height to drop bomb - huge explosion, collapse of palace into bunker, endex for dictator and liberation for locals. Vulcan makes surprise landing at ASI. Meanwhile, HMG totally surprised, claims to know nothing, condemns attack. House in uproar, change of government after vote of no confidence. Back to ASI, aircrew under open arrest are told to make themselves presentable. Unmarked jet lands (long range A319 or similar), stuffy politician announces that they've caused HMG much embarrassment etc etc - then a 'recognisable' prince jumps out, says "Yes, well, that's as maybe but my grandmother is extremely happy" - awards various honours etc. Says "Shall we go?"; "Yes sir, I'll make sure the aircraft will be ready in an hour" says pompous politician.. "Not you, minister, I'm talking to these chaps - I think we'll take the Vulcan home!" Final scene is 558 flying down the Mall.
Yes, yes, very cheesy and Boy's Own, I know. But those 'almost possible' movies (like the very early Bond movies) are so much more interesting than rubbish like 'Firefox' and 'Independence Day'.
5% please!