Vulcan to the Sky, The End? (Merged)
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Daily Mail 26/05/06
Sorry to read this paper but a double page article on the Black Buck run to the Falklands (on April the 31st
) Aircrft 607 Simon Baldwin!
As to why there is no mention or link to the VOC is any ones guess but again looks like a missed opportunity.
) Aircrft 607 Simon Baldwin!As to why there is no mention or link to the VOC is any ones guess but again looks like a missed opportunity.
"They are looking for 6 LAC/SAC, the selling points are that they do not need an oversignature as Marshalls wil provide oversight and they will be able to learn valuable skills.
It looks like the publicity is not getting around the bazaars".
Maybe the lack of reaction is indicative of a lack of enthusiasm from those who know nothing of the mighty Vulcan, and possibly dont want to work for free. It won't further anyones career to work on a Vulcan display.
Why are LAC's and SAC's being asked to volunteer to do this work? (Whatever it is!) Whats wrong with the VTS group of 'volunteers' doing this work?
Smacks of too many Pilots and not enough Indians (Pardon my metaphors)
It looks like the publicity is not getting around the bazaars".
Maybe the lack of reaction is indicative of a lack of enthusiasm from those who know nothing of the mighty Vulcan, and possibly dont want to work for free. It won't further anyones career to work on a Vulcan display.
Why are LAC's and SAC's being asked to volunteer to do this work? (Whatever it is!) Whats wrong with the VTS group of 'volunteers' doing this work?
Smacks of too many Pilots and not enough Indians (Pardon my metaphors)
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Originally Posted by Rigga
It looks like the publicity is not getting around the bazaars".
Maybe the lack of reaction is indicative of a lack of enthusiasm from those who know nothing of the mighty Vulcan,
Maybe the lack of reaction is indicative of a lack of enthusiasm from those who know nothing of the mighty Vulcan,
"and possibly dont want to work for free. It won't further anyones career to work on a Vulcan display. "
Who said 'free'?
The signal specifically said it would br a good career enhanvement learning valuable skills.
""Why are LAC's and SAC's being asked to volunteer to do this work?""
Because LAC/SAC stand to gain most?
PS, Don't shoot me I am just passing on the word
PN,
Sorry if I sounded angry, it was not aimed at anyone in particular, but I did strongly react to what I see as a potential abuse of Smallies!
I agree no-one said "Free" - but no-one serving in the RAF will get any career changing experiences from working this aircraft.
I feel this is a request for cheap labourers because VTS cannot afford 'voluntary' support from it's own workers. Gone are the days when you could just feed engineers and mechanics and then send them out to work. Now we all want pay and good accomodation - instead of living in a transit/barrack block for weeks on end (I did the airshow circuits for four years, as ground and air crew). Accomodation is likely to be the best reason for VTS guys not doing it.
In addition, in these times of sparse manpower, I can't see who would loan out mechanics? or what LAC's/SAC's would gain from this experience? They would get more "Cred" from working on Spitfires that are well outside their normal experience scope.
You must agree that flying is an expensive sport, not to be taken lightly or cheaply.
If anyone can afford to get an aeroplane such as this airworthy - they must afford to get it properly supported too, or they will lose it very quickly.
Is this a long-term Project with realistic support budgets? or a whimsical Hobby to get some last flights in a bygone Icon?
Whinge over - waiting for the "Incoming!"
Sorry if I sounded angry, it was not aimed at anyone in particular, but I did strongly react to what I see as a potential abuse of Smallies!
I agree no-one said "Free" - but no-one serving in the RAF will get any career changing experiences from working this aircraft.
I feel this is a request for cheap labourers because VTS cannot afford 'voluntary' support from it's own workers. Gone are the days when you could just feed engineers and mechanics and then send them out to work. Now we all want pay and good accomodation - instead of living in a transit/barrack block for weeks on end (I did the airshow circuits for four years, as ground and air crew). Accomodation is likely to be the best reason for VTS guys not doing it.
In addition, in these times of sparse manpower, I can't see who would loan out mechanics? or what LAC's/SAC's would gain from this experience? They would get more "Cred" from working on Spitfires that are well outside their normal experience scope.
You must agree that flying is an expensive sport, not to be taken lightly or cheaply.
If anyone can afford to get an aeroplane such as this airworthy - they must afford to get it properly supported too, or they will lose it very quickly.
Is this a long-term Project with realistic support budgets? or a whimsical Hobby to get some last flights in a bygone Icon?
Whinge over - waiting for the "Incoming!"
Originally Posted by Winco
<snip>
Do you have a list of all the other 'personalities' involved with 558? It would be intersting to see who has their finger in the pie so-to-speak. Never know, it might just throw up a few surprises!
The Winco
Do you have a list of all the other 'personalities' involved with 558? It would be intersting to see who has their finger in the pie so-to-speak. Never know, it might just throw up a few surprises!
The Winco
This is readily available from the Charity Commission website. I doubt that any of these people will feel the need to make money from the Trust, as an earlier post implied.
Worryingly, however, the trust submitted its accounts late for 2004 and are now a few days late for 2005 (year end 31 July 05 means due by 31 May 06). Perhaps the CC website is a few days out of date.
More worryingly, "R W Pleming Consulting" was paid £48,684 by the VTTS Trust in the year ended 31 Jul 04 (follow the accounts document link at http://www.charity-commission.gov.uk...&chyno=1101948 and see the last page). It would be interesting to know what they (he) did for that?
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Is the type of work for these LAC/SACs specified? Is it skilled or along the lines of "Here's a crate of Brillo pads, we need it stripped back for a re-spray"?
Originally Posted by Gainesy
Is the type of work for these LAC/SACs specified? Is it skilled or along the lines of "Here's a crate of Brillo pads, we need it stripped back for a re-spray"?
Part or complete thereof isn't mentioned........but when was the last time a re-wire of a Vulcan was done.....must have been late '70's at least...
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It was never formally re-wired IIRC. Looms were changed when needed. I can testify to the fact, because on several occasions I have assisted in loom changes and the old loom literally crumbled to dust!
You must remember that the Vulcan overflew its intended life by more than 100% - re-wiring was never part of any extension deal. Extension to FI required selected structural monitoring and repair; some items were lifed in hours or calendar according to the risk factors involved; some bits were never touched [inc most of the non-vital wiring - and I mean vital in the electrical system sense].
You must remember that the Vulcan overflew its intended life by more than 100% - re-wiring was never part of any extension deal. Extension to FI required selected structural monitoring and repair; some items were lifed in hours or calendar according to the risk factors involved; some bits were never touched [inc most of the non-vital wiring - and I mean vital in the electrical system sense].
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Gainsy, the skill set to be gained will be creating wiring looms and their connectors.
As far as accommodation is concerned it will be at Cottesmore. Don't know the standard of accommodation there but a good place to be if you are from El Adem with grass, or woolly Wales etc.
As far as accommodation is concerned it will be at Cottesmore. Don't know the standard of accommodation there but a good place to be if you are from El Adem with grass, or woolly Wales etc.
possel
Possel
I should start by saying that Dr Rob Pleming is a good friend of mine, so this post will perhaps not be totally unbiased. However, it does have the advantage of being based on personal experience. I should also say that I have not consulted him before writing this post, and he is unaware that I am doing so.
Rob Pleming, not very long ago, was earning a lot more than £48,684 a year. I believe he could do so again if he wanted to. He was at a peak of a very distinguished career at the top levels of international business.
He decided to give it all up and devote all of his working life (and a significant proportion of his private life) to the Vulcan to the Sky project. I believe it is true to say that, without him, the project would have foundered a long time ago. Apart from anything else, it would probably not have achieved the extraordinary and unique grant from the Heritage Lottery Fund - a grant which only came about after much lengthy and frustrating battering of heads against various apparently impenetrable brick walls. Without Rob Pleming, I believe skulls would have cracked, and walls would not have fallen.
I know nothing of the accounting figures, but I am absolutely prepared to believe that if R W Pleming Consulting charged £48,684, you can rest assured that the project got a lot more than that in added value.
Quite simply, VTTS is very lucky to have someone as good as Rob Pleming.
airsound
Originally Posted by possel
More worryingly, "R W Pleming Consulting" was paid £48,684 by the VTTS Trust in the year ended 31 Jul 04 (follow the accounts document link at http://www.charity-commission.gov.uk...&chyno=1101948 and see the last page). It would be interesting to know what they (he) did for that?
I should start by saying that Dr Rob Pleming is a good friend of mine, so this post will perhaps not be totally unbiased. However, it does have the advantage of being based on personal experience. I should also say that I have not consulted him before writing this post, and he is unaware that I am doing so.
Rob Pleming, not very long ago, was earning a lot more than £48,684 a year. I believe he could do so again if he wanted to. He was at a peak of a very distinguished career at the top levels of international business.
He decided to give it all up and devote all of his working life (and a significant proportion of his private life) to the Vulcan to the Sky project. I believe it is true to say that, without him, the project would have foundered a long time ago. Apart from anything else, it would probably not have achieved the extraordinary and unique grant from the Heritage Lottery Fund - a grant which only came about after much lengthy and frustrating battering of heads against various apparently impenetrable brick walls. Without Rob Pleming, I believe skulls would have cracked, and walls would not have fallen.
I know nothing of the accounting figures, but I am absolutely prepared to believe that if R W Pleming Consulting charged £48,684, you can rest assured that the project got a lot more than that in added value.
Quite simply, VTTS is very lucky to have someone as good as Rob Pleming.
airsound
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Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator
Gainsy, the skill set to be gained will be creating wiring looms and their connectors.
.
.
. It's also a labour intensive job as well-which explains I assume, why the call was sent out for help. How it can be classed as improving a basic skill set, is, in my humble opinion, just a shade overstating the case now isn't it ? 
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It could be that there a few ENTHUSIASTS amongst our highly skilled Eng brethern who might actually WANT to be part of the team to get the old lady back in the air again. Not everyone is totally focussed on career advancement and making loadsa dosh.
Besides, some might welcome a break from the endless run of det after det...
Besides, some might welcome a break from the endless run of det after det...
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[QUOTE=FJJP]It could be that there a few ENTHUSIASTS amongst our highly skilled Eng brethern who might actually WANT to be part of the team to get the old lady back in the air again. Not everyone is totally focussed on career advancement and making loadsa dosh.
QUOTE]
That's a fair point FJJP----from one who, many years ago, had the privilege of working on the Lanc
--did a lot of work on the port flap, spent a few hours merrily flicking the heads off those pretty green headed rivets on the mainplane, sat in the thing and wondered about those who also sat in one many years before---and considered the job a labour of love----and never did get the promised ride in it either !!!-----
--along with everybody else who worked on it at the time of course --conned again
QUOTE]
That's a fair point FJJP----from one who, many years ago, had the privilege of working on the Lanc
--did a lot of work on the port flap, spent a few hours merrily flicking the heads off those pretty green headed rivets on the mainplane, sat in the thing and wondered about those who also sat in one many years before---and considered the job a labour of love----and never did get the promised ride in it either !!!----- --along with everybody else who worked on it at the time of course --conned again
Actually, If the 'Request' mentioned re-stringing the plugs and sockets on a Vulcan I would assume that is why there has been little, or no, response.
There is very little 'skill' involved in marking a floor and pulling cables to length, many,many times. Polish Plumbers would be more enthusiastic and do the job for less.
Accomodation in a Transit Block is very dire in the best of places, It is not like staying in a Mess. A cosy Basher on Ascension Island can still be a hot little hut when you have nothing else to go to.
There is very little 'skill' involved in marking a floor and pulling cables to length, many,many times. Polish Plumbers would be more enthusiastic and do the job for less.
Accomodation in a Transit Block is very dire in the best of places, It is not like staying in a Mess. A cosy Basher on Ascension Island can still be a hot little hut when you have nothing else to go to.
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Possel
Many thanks for that (I hadn't expected to get a reply to be honest with you.) I agree entirely with you about the worrying amount of money paid to the good Dr P. I had been led to believe (by more than one source) that ALL of these people on the trustees list were giving 'their' time and expertise free - clearly that is not the case, and I wish I could say that I am surprised. Was there any mention of the 'others' payments?
airsound,
I do not doubt you for one minute that Dr P is a very nice chap. But so what? What has that got to do with this project? £50K is a great deal of money by anybody's standard and I would question your comments about value for money etc. I would simply say that at the moment the project is (yet again!) scratching around for money and , again looks like folding.
And lastly, your comment...'Without Rob Pleming, I believe skulls would have cracked, and walls would not have fallen' hmm, interesting observation that in light of recent events and press announcements.
Still, lets wait and see what happend eh?
The Winco
...
Many thanks for that (I hadn't expected to get a reply to be honest with you.) I agree entirely with you about the worrying amount of money paid to the good Dr P. I had been led to believe (by more than one source) that ALL of these people on the trustees list were giving 'their' time and expertise free - clearly that is not the case, and I wish I could say that I am surprised. Was there any mention of the 'others' payments?
airsound,
I do not doubt you for one minute that Dr P is a very nice chap. But so what? What has that got to do with this project? £50K is a great deal of money by anybody's standard and I would question your comments about value for money etc. I would simply say that at the moment the project is (yet again!) scratching around for money and , again looks like folding.
And lastly, your comment...'Without Rob Pleming, I believe skulls would have cracked, and walls would not have fallen' hmm, interesting observation that in light of recent events and press announcements.
Still, lets wait and see what happend eh?
The Winco
...
Winco
I may be making a quite unwarrantable assumption, but the name Winco suggests to me that you might have been a staff officer at some time. If that is the case, have you forgotten the golden rule of written arguments? The rule is - always read the thing you’re going to argue against before arguing.
There is nothing in my post about the niceness or otherwise of Rob Pleming. I was arguing that he is an exceptionally able, highly qualified person to be doing this job. In fact, he is qualified in both engineering and business terms. And I was also suggesting that he is working very hard at this job at some sacrifice to himself.
As I believe was clear in my post, the point about the head banging referred solely to the success of the Heritage Lottery Fund grant, without which the project would have foundered. Getting that grant was unprecedented, since the arbiters of the Fund argued long and hard that money could not be given to an artifact that moved. Success was achieved only by an enormous amount of hard work, and much unwillingness to give up, even in the face of sometimes apparently unwinnable odds.
Feeling as strongly as you do about Rob Pleming’s part in this, why don’t you write to him and ask him the questions you want answered? You can easily contact him through the website.
I accept that you may have a point when you say “the project is (yet again!) scratching around for money and , again looks like folding.” - although I wouldn’t put it as strongly as that. I believe that there is still a worthwhile probability that we will see this Vulcan fly again. But please remember that this has always been a risky project - nothing anywhere near this scale has ever been attempted in the historical aircraft preservation field.
Would you have had them never try in the first place?
I suggest a bit less carping and a bit more positive support at a time when it is sorely needed might be a very good thing.
airsound
I may be making a quite unwarrantable assumption, but the name Winco suggests to me that you might have been a staff officer at some time. If that is the case, have you forgotten the golden rule of written arguments? The rule is - always read the thing you’re going to argue against before arguing.
Originally Posted by Winco
airsound,
I do not doubt you for one minute that Dr P is a very nice chap. But so what? What has that got to do with this project?
...
I do not doubt you for one minute that Dr P is a very nice chap. But so what? What has that got to do with this project?
...
Originally Posted by Winco
And lastly, your comment...'Without Rob Pleming, I believe skulls would have cracked, and walls would not have fallen' hmm, interesting observation that in light of recent events and press announcements.
...
...
Feeling as strongly as you do about Rob Pleming’s part in this, why don’t you write to him and ask him the questions you want answered? You can easily contact him through the website.
I accept that you may have a point when you say “the project is (yet again!) scratching around for money and , again looks like folding.” - although I wouldn’t put it as strongly as that. I believe that there is still a worthwhile probability that we will see this Vulcan fly again. But please remember that this has always been a risky project - nothing anywhere near this scale has ever been attempted in the historical aircraft preservation field.
Would you have had them never try in the first place?
I suggest a bit less carping and a bit more positive support at a time when it is sorely needed might be a very good thing.
airsound
Originally Posted by Winco
Possel
Many thanks for that (I hadn't expected to get a reply to be honest with you.) I agree entirely with you about the worrying amount of money paid to the good Dr P. I had been led to believe (by more than one source) that ALL of these people on the trustees list were giving 'their' time and expertise free - clearly that is not the case, and I wish I could say that I am surprised. Was there any mention of the 'others' payments
...
Many thanks for that (I hadn't expected to get a reply to be honest with you.) I agree entirely with you about the worrying amount of money paid to the good Dr P. I had been led to believe (by more than one source) that ALL of these people on the trustees list were giving 'their' time and expertise free - clearly that is not the case, and I wish I could say that I am surprised. Was there any mention of the 'others' payments
...
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Would you have had them never try in the first place?
And once they do get it flying, then what? Who's going to pay the running costs? Air Display sponsors? Even the RAF had to give up on that: just like the BBMF, MOD would have kept the display flight going - if it had been making a profit.
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airsound,
May I come to the support of the Winco.
Firstly, I don't think for one minute that Pleming is 'Not a nice chap' and your comment makes little sence to me frankly. (I assume that if he IS a good friend of yours, then you do regard him as a nice chap, or don't you?)
You say in your post.....'he is an exceptionally able, highly qualified person to be doing this job' and say that he is a businessman. Maybe then, you could explain why there have been so many 'errors' and 'oversights' made with this project? and why there is a bi-monthly announcement about the lack of funds? Who keeps getting it wrong then? I would suggest that they are not the signs of a successful bussiness person.
And as for writing to Pleming....I can only suggest that you look at this forum and others about that. I myself have written to Pleming and e mailed him, on a number of occasiions and I know of many others who have done likewise. Not one of us have had a reply from Pleming or indeed from anyone else in the project - shameful quite frankly!
And lastly.......'Would you have had them never try in the first place? ' I am saddenned to say that the answer is now a resounding YES. Too many people (myself included) have lost far too much of their hard-earned cash on this project. If I had known that any of my donations to this project would have gone for Plemings 'consultancy' then I WOULD NOT HAVE GIVEN, and I suspect a great many others would have felt the same.
I have been a supporter of this project for a long time. I have given generously to it and, as ex Vulcan aircrew, I wanted more than to see the old girl take to the skies once more. However, it is sadly, time to call it a day and let her rest in peace.
Kind regardes to all
TSM
May I come to the support of the Winco.
Firstly, I don't think for one minute that Pleming is 'Not a nice chap' and your comment makes little sence to me frankly. (I assume that if he IS a good friend of yours, then you do regard him as a nice chap, or don't you?)
You say in your post.....'he is an exceptionally able, highly qualified person to be doing this job' and say that he is a businessman. Maybe then, you could explain why there have been so many 'errors' and 'oversights' made with this project? and why there is a bi-monthly announcement about the lack of funds? Who keeps getting it wrong then? I would suggest that they are not the signs of a successful bussiness person.
And as for writing to Pleming....I can only suggest that you look at this forum and others about that. I myself have written to Pleming and e mailed him, on a number of occasiions and I know of many others who have done likewise. Not one of us have had a reply from Pleming or indeed from anyone else in the project - shameful quite frankly!
And lastly.......'Would you have had them never try in the first place? ' I am saddenned to say that the answer is now a resounding YES. Too many people (myself included) have lost far too much of their hard-earned cash on this project. If I had known that any of my donations to this project would have gone for Plemings 'consultancy' then I WOULD NOT HAVE GIVEN, and I suspect a great many others would have felt the same.
I have been a supporter of this project for a long time. I have given generously to it and, as ex Vulcan aircrew, I wanted more than to see the old girl take to the skies once more. However, it is sadly, time to call it a day and let her rest in peace.
Kind regardes to all
TSM
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swinging monkey,
thank you for your support.
airsound.
I'm not sure what some of your points are about, but hey, not to worry.
Yes I was a Wg Cdr, Yes I did Staff college and YES I did read your comments thoroughly! I had assumed (perhaps incorrectly in hindsight) that you regarded Dr Pleming as a very nice chap, simply because you had personal experience of him and he is a friend of yours. If that was the case, and he is NOT a nice chap, then I'm glad to take a hit.
I would echo what swinging monkey has said about donations and how they have found their way into Dr Plemings bank account. I would also concur that the British public would be less than happy about that arrangement and, I assume, some of the others that have occurred during the life of this project. In fact, I would suggest that most of them will be furious to know that their cash has gone to Dr Pleming.
I would also take issue about writing to Dr Pleming. I have written to him on more than one occasion (and not behind the mask of anonymity as on PPrune) without receiving any form of reply or acknowledgement whatsoever from him or his team. I read recently on their website that the reason Dr Pleming does not reply to individuals is because he does not want to be mis-interpreted (or something like that)
Well, I can understand that to a degree, but to simply ignore peoples letters and e mails etc shows a crass lack of respect for the very people who are providing you with the money for the project (aswell as your wages!)
Airsound, I don't want to get too drawn into a conflict over this project. God knows there has been enough 'bad blood' over the years surrounding it. I would just conclude by saying that I do not share your undying confidence in Dr Pleming or his team, and I am pleased he is not heading up the company I now work for! I regret that in light of recent 'disclosures' I will NOT be supporting the project any more, sorry.
The Winco
thank you for your support.
airsound.
I'm not sure what some of your points are about, but hey, not to worry.
Yes I was a Wg Cdr, Yes I did Staff college and YES I did read your comments thoroughly! I had assumed (perhaps incorrectly in hindsight) that you regarded Dr Pleming as a very nice chap, simply because you had personal experience of him and he is a friend of yours. If that was the case, and he is NOT a nice chap, then I'm glad to take a hit.
I would echo what swinging monkey has said about donations and how they have found their way into Dr Plemings bank account. I would also concur that the British public would be less than happy about that arrangement and, I assume, some of the others that have occurred during the life of this project. In fact, I would suggest that most of them will be furious to know that their cash has gone to Dr Pleming.
I would also take issue about writing to Dr Pleming. I have written to him on more than one occasion (and not behind the mask of anonymity as on PPrune) without receiving any form of reply or acknowledgement whatsoever from him or his team. I read recently on their website that the reason Dr Pleming does not reply to individuals is because he does not want to be mis-interpreted (or something like that)
Well, I can understand that to a degree, but to simply ignore peoples letters and e mails etc shows a crass lack of respect for the very people who are providing you with the money for the project (aswell as your wages!)
Airsound, I don't want to get too drawn into a conflict over this project. God knows there has been enough 'bad blood' over the years surrounding it. I would just conclude by saying that I do not share your undying confidence in Dr Pleming or his team, and I am pleased he is not heading up the company I now work for! I regret that in light of recent 'disclosures' I will NOT be supporting the project any more, sorry.
The Winco