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-   -   All borders to reopen. (https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/632861-all-borders-reopen.html)

unexplained blip 26th Sep 2021 11:26


Originally Posted by WingNut60 (Post 11116885)
I'm not sure that the WA Govt ever specifically said that the border was being closed to protect the mining industry.
Though that is at least partially true and taken as a given.

But anyway, what do you see as being a quick fix for the current situation with hospital waiting times?

Not being in WA and not being in favour of under-investing in health, however, supply of trained medical staff would be the limiting factor, as opposed to (say) any shortage of mullah or will. Those staff take a long time (longer than his COVID episode) to make/acquire. If someone in WA Govt recognised the health system as a vulnerability then the main reasonable/viable course of action would be to keep the threats out, rather than attempt to build up response capacity when the personnel are not available.

The health sector is very well versed in restricting supply of trained professionals in order to preserve salaries and hierarchy. The widespread use of telehealth has been by necessity and it took the emergence of COVID to break down the institutional barriers. The long term question is around whether the health sector is prepared to improve its scalability and flexibility post-COVID. Otherwise the blame for capacity shortfalls will continue to lie equally between govt and the sector itself IMHO.

SOPS 26th Sep 2021 11:50


Originally Posted by Green.Dot (Post 11116846)
SOPS you certainly aren’t coming across as a team player. People on the other side of the country are at breaking point, and you rub their noses in what they are missing. Pull ya head in.


As in a team player… let it into WA and go for it? As Gladys says…. We will live with it and people will die..? That’s the team player plan?


WingNut60 26th Sep 2021 12:18


Originally Posted by unexplained blip (Post 11117074)
Not being in WA and not being in favour of under-investing in health, however, supply of trained medical staff would be the limiting factor, as opposed to (say) any shortage of mullah or will. Those staff take a long time (longer than his COVID episode) to make/acquire. If someone in WA Govt recognised the health system as a vulnerability then the main reasonable/viable course of action would be to keep the threats out, rather than attempt to build up response capacity when the personnel are not available.

The health sector is very well versed in restricting supply of trained professionals in order to preserve salaries and hierarchy. The widespread use of telehealth has been by necessity and it took the emergence of COVID to break down the institutional barriers. The long term question is around whether the health sector is prepared to improve its scalability and flexibility post-COVID. Otherwise the blame for capacity shortfalls will continue to lie equally between govt and the sector itself IMHO.

Not far off the mark as part of the basis for a long-term strategy.
Again, I'm not sure there is a quick fix in there though.
And I don't think there is any quick fix at all that doesn't involve opening the border to skilled immigration.

ScoMo, over to you.

unexplained blip 26th Sep 2021 12:40


Originally Posted by WingNut60 (Post 11117095)
... And I don't think there is any quick fix at all that doesn't involve opening the border to skilled immigration.

Amen to that... although maybe the last thing Asia would need right now is Australian carrots being waved in front of their doctors and nurses.

layman 26th Sep 2021 13:51

Heard today from a friend who's daughter works as a doctor in a SE Qld hospital.

Little / no elective surgery as they are keeping beds 'free' for the expected post 70-80% Covid surge.

Adding this to the tales of 'ramping' in a number of states, it would seem that the hospitals are likely to be the limiting factor when attempting to open up (capacity and/or staffing)

WingNut60 26th Sep 2021 14:36


Originally Posted by layman (Post 11117115)
Heard today from a friend who's daughter works as a doctor in a SE Qld hospital.

Little / no elective surgery as they are keeping beds 'free' for the expected post 70-80% Covid surge.

Adding this to the tales of 'ramping' in a number of states, it would seem that the hospitals are likely to be the limiting factor when attempting to open up (capacity and/or staffing)

Talking to a friend in Alberta this morning - Edmonton hospitals are full to the brim with all elective surgery on hold.

Alberta vaccination rate - 82.3% - at least one jab - 12 Y.O.+
- 73.4% FULLY VACCINATED - 12 Y.O.+
  • Since Jan 1, 2021, 0.3% of people with one dose (9,228/3,070,711) were diagnosed with COVID-19 14 days after the first immunization date
  • Since Jan 1, 2021, 0.4% of people with two doses (12,307/2,753,156) were diagnosed with COVID-19 14 days after the second immunization date
  • 87.8% of cases (162,507/185,093) since Jan 1, 2021 were unvaccinated or diagnosed within two weeks from the first dose immunization date
  • 87.3% of hospitalized cases (7,366/8,442) since Jan 1, 2021 were unvaccinated or diagnosed within two weeks from the first dose immunization date
  • 80.1% of COVID-19 deaths (871/1,088) since Jan 1, 2021 were unvaccinated or diagnosed within two weeks from the first dose immunization date
I am told that ICU space is currently being allocated on a "best chance of survival" basis.

Gnadenburg 27th Sep 2021 00:37


Originally Posted by WingNut60 (Post 11117133)
I am told that ICU space is currently being allocated on a "best chance of survival" basis.

This is why I think the reluctant vaxers on this thread are mugs. COVID is largely a preventable disease by vaccination and ICU care still offers survivability with breakthrough infections.

So they've droned on within these pages, holier than thou, smarter than thou, yet you can bet, when they or their family start coughing themselves to death, they will want an ICU bed. It is not unlikely that if the medical system broke down, the triage system would be brutal, with many older vaccinated Australians denied ICU beds to protect the reluctant vaxers now commanding intensive medical care (despite their choice not to vaccinate ).

Scooter Rassmussin 27th Sep 2021 01:03

I still say Borders to never open and QF group administration in 2022 !

PoppaJo 27th Sep 2021 01:37


Originally Posted by Scooter Rassmussin (Post 11117321)
I still say Borders to never open and QF group administration in 2022 !

Also is considerable cash burn in off shore parts of the business like Jetstar Japan and Singapore which really need to be cut loose. Those will be bleeding for a long while yet.

KRviator 27th Sep 2021 01:46


Originally Posted by Scooter Rassmussin (Post 11117321)
I still say Borders to never open and QF group administration in 2022 !

The million dollar question is "Will Joe Q Public really give a damn if QF goes under because of the border bollocks?" and following on from that "Will Joe Q Public take it out on the politicians at the ballot box?"

Going by what is purported to be the sentiment in WA & Qld, the answer is a clear and unequivocal "NO!"

cloudsurfng 27th Sep 2021 02:48


Originally Posted by Scooter Rassmussin (Post 11117321)
I still say Borders to never open and QF group administration in 2022 !


The share price would seem to indicate otherwise.

Icarus2001 27th Sep 2021 03:09

AerialPerspective, thanks for the polite reply, a surprise on this forum. I cannot disagree with most of what you say. Have you really checked the location of all previous Australian PMs over summer to claim they stayed home? If so I tip my hat to you. It is odd that ScoMo as a marketing person, seems blind to what gets referred to now as the “optics” of a situation. Going on holiday, forced shaking hands etc. Howard had a much better nose for the impact and read the mood well.
As for ScoMo upsetting the French, well, C’est La Vie. A storm in a teacup whipped along by left leaning media. Have we forgotten about the Rainbow Warrior and nuclear testing in Muroroa Atoll? How did the French react to our concerns? So the Australian government put our interests ahead of the French in a wise decision to (finally) go nuclear. Let them eat cake.

neville_nobody 27th Sep 2021 03:17


The share price would seem to indicate otherwise.
The share price doesn't indicate solvency of a company. Share price could be sky high and you wake up to find they are shuttering the joint.

KRviator 27th Sep 2021 03:41

The latest from Red Rat:

Qantas reroutes direct Perth to London flight, delays Sydney, Melbourne flights amid border restrictions
Christmas reunions could be off the cards for some West Australians, after Qantas announced it would delay introducing more flights between Perth and both Sydney and Melbourne due to WA’s border restrictions.

Limited flights currently operate on routes between Perth and both Sydney and Melbourne, and more flights will not be added until at least the beginning of February. In a statement, Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce said the changes followed talks with WA authorities.

"Based on our discussions with Western Australia we know their borders won't be open to New South Wales and Victoria until early next year, so we've sadly had to cancel the flying we had planned on those routes in the lead-up to Christmas," he said.Qantas said it would continue to conduct return flights between Perth and both Melbourne and Sydney five times a week to maintain "minimum connections" for those who are granted permission to travel into WA.

"At this stage, WA doesn't intend to open to international travel until sometime next year, so we'll unfortunately have to temporarily move our Perth-London service until at least April 2022," Mr Joyce said.

Qantas had flagged the possible change in late August, but confirmed the decision on Monday. Mr Joyce said the London flight would instead depart from Melbourne and stop in either Darwin or Singapore, depending on the outcome of conversations with Northern Territory authorities.

"We look forward to operating this flight via Perth again when circumstances allow," Mr Joyce said. Qantas said it was still on track to "gradually restart" international travel from December 18.

Mr Joyce said in August it would be a "terrible shame" if people could travel to London before they could travel to Perth – a comment WA Premier Mark McGowan swiftly rejected at the time. Source
What's that? The State Daddy thinking people from Sydney & Melbourne won't be able to Perth, Scotland, before they can get to Perth WA?

Seems Qantas thinks differently. With a bit of luck, the NT Government will see the benefit of having QF keep QF9/10 going via Darwin long after McGowan pulls his head out of his asre.

dr dre 27th Sep 2021 04:15


Originally Posted by KRviator (Post 11117341)
The latest from Red Rat:What's that? The State Daddy thinking people from Sydney & Melbourne won't be able to Perth, Scotland, before they can get to Perth WA?

Seems Qantas thinks differently. With a bit of luck, the NT Government will see the benefit of having QF keep QF9/10 going via Darwin long after McGowan pulls his head out of his asre.

Well with NT Chief Minister Gunner's statements I don't know how they'll reconcile this:

"Speaking to ABC Radio Darwin on Tuesday morning, Mr Gunner said it was unlikely the Territory's hard border with New South Wales and Victoria would drop before December 25. I can't see — certainly in New South Wales — I can't see that clearing up before Christmas," Mr Gunner told the program. It's more the method of quarantine and whether they're hotspots or not. I can't see that cooling before Christmas."

"Chief Minister Michael Gunner says more than 80 per cent of people in the Northern Territory may need to be fully vaccinated to avoid future snap lockdowns."

“We have 20 ICU beds in the Territory. We can probably assign eight of them for Covid patients.”


With those statements I can't see the NT government allowing travelers from either NSW, Victoria or the UK wander around freely come this Christmas, so I'd say more likely to be going via Singapore temporarily.

They'll definitely come back to Perth-London, they have stated this quite clearly in their press release today. The reason for this is simple:

2016 Census those born in either England, Scotland or Ireland by City:
Perth 215,382
Sydney 189,409
Melbourne 166,768
Darwin 5,596

KRviator 27th Sep 2021 04:58

The Territory hard border with NSW has nothing whatsoever to do with being able to transit through Darwin airport.

In the same manner as if you flew from Hobart-Sydney, overnighted in Sydney and then caught your flight to Darwin, you are not taken to have been in a Covid hotspot. You are not "entering the NT" until you leave Darwin airport per se' - and the NT allows travellers from outside a hotspot to transit through a hotspot to get to the NT if needed, by staying overnight. Same as I currently hold valid passes to enter both Qld and Victoria so long as I do not leave the airport grounds and then fly back out of the state - but I cannot enter either by road. :ugh:

SOPS 27th Sep 2021 05:08

I can tell you one thing for sure. If ScoMo doesn’t stop this “ all borders must be open by Christmas “ stuff , he won’t be PM for much longer because he will lose every seat in WA. I know people, here in WA, who want the borders ( including the international one), closed permanently. It doesn’t matter if you think that is silly or not, the general feeling in WA is to keep things as they are. And if QF takes it ball and goes home, I don’t think many people will mind.

PoppaJo 27th Sep 2021 05:20

Expect the airlines to shift capacity elsewhere and Perth will return to the place of high airfares for the foreseeable future. It will be cheaper to fly Perth to East Coast via Singapore, but why should the airlines keep hanging around waiting though.

People do reach breaking point eventually you can’t stay shut off forever.

dr dre 27th Sep 2021 05:41


Originally Posted by SOPS (Post 11117357)
I can tell you one thing for sure. If ScoMo doesn’t stop this “ all borders must be open by Christmas “ stuff , he won’t be PM for much longer because he will lose every seat in WA.

Actually last Roy Morgan poll had the LNP up in WA in the federal vote by a slight margin, and any other poll didn't show a huge jump to the ALP.


I know people, here in WA, who want the borders ( including the international one), closed permanently.
Any hard evidence for that being widespread? I found an opinion poll from October last year, when there was no vaccine and Victoria's large outbreak had occurred, and even then a majority wanted more clarity when things would open. There were also polls with some questions like "should borders be open a various vaccine rates? or should states be forced to open? etc, but I've never seen a poll asking about a forever closure, and any poll of Secessionism was a minority, and then probably answered in the affirmative as a joke. Even in that case it doesn't mean a permanent close. And do those people you know WA is actually open to more jurisdictions today than NSW is?



cloudsurfng 27th Sep 2021 05:47


Originally Posted by SOPS (Post 11117357)
I can tell you one thing for sure. If ScoMo doesn’t stop this “ all borders must be open by Christmas “ stuff , he won’t be PM for much longer because he will lose every seat in WA. I know people, here in WA, who want the borders ( including the international one), closed permanently. It doesn’t matter if you think that is silly or not, the general feeling in WA is to keep things as they are. And if QF takes it ball and goes home, I don’t think many people will mind.


there are stupid people everywhere I guess. WA just seems to have a higher per capita amount


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