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-   -   All borders to reopen. (https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/632861-all-borders-reopen.html)

compressor stall 4th Jul 2021 01:26

A lot of the don't wear masks message in early 2020 was driven by in part:
  1. Poorly handled masks can increase the risk to the wearer (bringing particles on the outside of the mask into a clean environment) - remember this was pre aerosol, back when it was determined that you needed 15 mins next to someone else to get it).
  2. Not enough masks around to protect those who needed them (health care professionals).
No matter mow much the anti intellect brigade repeat their mantra, the no mask phase is not an indication of a failing of science or medicine . It was proportional reaction to what was around / known at the time.

minigundiplomat 4th Jul 2021 02:17


Originally Posted by Green.Dot (Post 11072767)
Seriously is it that f*cking hard to wear a mask for a couple weeks?!

Civil liberties- some of us are precious!

As for changing guidance, have you ever decided to make a change to a previous decision you made on the flight deck due to change in circumstance?

You obviously have reading difficulties- where did I say wearing a mask was an issue? I said the advice was incorrect and yes, given the circumstances thatís perfectly understandable.

Likewise, itís understandable to question and assess advice, especially when the advice is constantly changing, often contradictory and based on data that isnít publicly available.

To answer your flight deck analogy, thereís this new fangled thing called CRM, where we question decisions that donít make sense.

Finally. preventing citizens from leaving or entering their nation, banning them from leaving their homes or destroying their means of income is a civil liberties issue and, although it might be the right solution, it needs questioning and more consistent and transparent data than is offered at the moment.


601 4th Jul 2021 02:20


As for changing guidance, have you ever decided to make a change to a previous decision you made on the flight deck due to change in circumstance?
It amazes me that as professional pilots we cannot accept that the knowledge about this virus gets better with time and therefore will/may require a change to our response.
As pilots we do this all the time.
Why do some of us do not allow other professionals and Governments to change advice?
I would hate to assume that this stance against the changing advice/response is based on a political position.


To answer your flight deck analogy, thereís this new fangled thing called CRM, where we question decisions that donít make sense.
To enable the CRM analogy to be considered in this conversation, the general population would need to have the same level of knowledge as the medical profession.
I am sure that when you moved on to a new type, a lot of what was written in study material did not make sense. You studied it and eventually it did make sense.
The medical profession is in the learning phase with this virus without any guidance or study material.

As they learn more things will change.

W

Chronic Snoozer 4th Jul 2021 03:04

We need to “crack down” on the real problem. Rampant overreach.


On Thursday, the Western Australian premier Mark McGowan claimed that “more than 100,000” people had travelled overseas “unnecessarily”.

“They book a conference somewhere in Europe, then have a holiday, then come back and join the queue,” McGowan told reporters in Perth. “It’s just not right. We need to crack down on this.”

McGowan claimed that a “large group of people” have gone overseas on multiple occasions, increasing the risk of Covid-19 spread on their return and displacing returning Australians.

He cited the fact that of the 51,000 people who had been through hotel quarantine in Perth, 1,308 had been through twice, 506 people had been through three times, and 82 had been through four times.

McGowan called to “crack down very, very heavily on the number allowed to go overseas”.
https://www.theguardian.com/australi...o-fly-overseas

Correct me if I’m wrong but the halving of caps on international arrivals has come in the face of the ‘Delta’ strain of the virus, not because there has been another leak in the hotel quarantine system. A limit on arrivals has always been in place, it makes no difference if people head overseas in numbers, they know there is a queue to get back in. So instead of halving the caps, just do a better job of prioritising which people are permitted to enter Australia.

Foxxster 4th Jul 2021 05:00

Hopefully our future. My guess or hope sometime first quarter 2022. As we are behind in our vaccination program and it won’t be until February or March that we will match the current UK rate.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...trictions.html

Lead Balloon 4th Jul 2021 05:01


[P]reventing citizens from leaving or entering their nation, banning them from leaving their homes or destroying their means of income is a civil liberties issue and, although it might be the right solution, it needs questioning and more consistent and transparent data than is offered at the moment.
What it "needs" is a price put on it. Dollars. Along with the price of the mental and physical and mental health issues, suicides, and plain old economic loss. Dollars.

The dollars might be an estimate, but at the moment there is not even that.

Whether the approach taken to Covid 19 is "the right solution" depends on how much it really costs.

The approach being taken at the moment is to 'throw everything' at the virus, irrespective of the cost (though it would have been nice if the Federal government had thrown money at proper quarantine facilities earlier, when it was durr-obvious they were needed). Covid 19 is 'public enemy number 1' and it's being fought no matter the cost. No price is put on the value of the lives saved.

But why, then, don't we shut down the roads, permanently, to prevent the loss of life in road accidents? Our political 'leaders' won't say it, but the reason is because the consequential costs to society of shutting the roads down would far outweigh the value of the lives that would be saved.

Maybe a life lost on the road is less valuable than a life lost to Covid 19?

The response to Covid 19 reminds me a lot of aviation safety regulation in Australia.

Our political 'leaders' have abdicated their responsibilities to technical - in this case medical - experts. The medical experts have been asked how to fight Covid 19 and our 'leaders' have 'acted on the medical advice'.

The medical experts have not been asked for - because they couldn't tell you - an estimate of the cost of fighting Covid 19 in the way they've recommended. Estimating the value of curtailed liberties, the value of the physical and mental health impacts of those locked down or restricted in travel, the businesses and livelihoods lost and just plain old economic activity, is not their job. The medical experts might 'care' about those costs, in the sense that they'd prefer the costs not be paid, but it's not the medical experts' job to decide whether or not the costs should be paid in return for following their recommended approach to mitigating Covid 19 risks. That's supposed to be the job of our 'leaders'.

Ask CASA for the real costs of, for example, the 'community service flight' changes. CASA wouldn't know and doesn't care. It's moved risks out of the air to 'somewhere else' where 'someone else' will pay the price.

Still, all of the economic numbers are great. Record house prices, low unemployment, GDP and inflation numbers looking good. Perhaps what Australia should keep doing indefinitely, and irrespective of Covid 19, is randomly locking down cities, randomly shutting down interstate and international borders and going the odd trillion or so into further debt). What could possibly go wrong?

dr dre 4th Jul 2021 05:07


Originally Posted by Lead Balloon (Post 11072811)
Still, all of the economic numbers are great. Record house prices, low unemployment, GDP and inflation numbers looking good. Perhaps what Australia should keep doing indefinitely, and irrespective of Covid 19, is ... randomly shutting down interstate and international borders.

Itís already been suggested:

LNP Senator Gerard Rennick says borders should stay closed to prevent foreigners pushing down wages

PoppaJo 4th Jul 2021 05:17

Didnít McGowan also want his border closed permanently to try and keep the meth out?

Foxxster 4th Jul 2021 06:16


Originally Posted by dr dre (Post 11072812)


well he is right that the third world level of population growth driven by various forms of immigration most certainly have kept wages low and is a deliberate policy lobbied by big business.

as for keeping the borders closed, that part is madness.

you can of course open the borders AND significantly reduce immigration at the same time.

KRviator 4th Jul 2021 06:18

Dunno about the border, but he certainly wants to keep his G2G pass so they can track not only who's coming in, but where you'll be going once you're in.

Dannyboy39 4th Jul 2021 07:14


Originally Posted by Chronic Snoozer (Post 11072790)
We need to ďcrack downĒ on the real problem. Rampant overreach.



https://www.theguardian.com/australi...o-fly-overseas

Correct me if Iím wrong but the halving of caps on international arrivals has come in the face of the ĎDeltaí strain of the virus, not because there has been another leak in the hotel quarantine system. A limit on arrivals has always been in place, it makes no difference if people head overseas in numbers, they know there is a queue to get back in. So instead of halving the caps, just do a better job of prioritising which people are permitted to enter Australia.

I just can't believe people are happy to live in North Korea.

WingNut60 4th Jul 2021 07:16


Originally Posted by mattyj (Post 11072725)
Thatís exactly correct, organising a protest should be an activity protected by a bill of rights (if we had one worth the paper itís written on)..you may tut tut, or shake your head..but there are NO exceptions for taking away a free persons civil liberties...............

I won't argue with the principle of protecting the right to protest.
What I do not accept is that anyone either needs to nor has the right to break the law in order to protest.

The examples that you cite involved people breaking the laws regarding wearing of masks and social distancing.
If you allow people to break the law in order to "big note" their protests then which laws do you think that they should be allowed to break? Common affray? Manslaughter, perhaps?

SOPS 4th Jul 2021 07:23


Originally Posted by Foxxster (Post 11072830)
well he is right that the third world level of population growth driven by various forms of immigration most certainly have kept wages low and is a deliberate policy lobbied by big business.

as for keeping the borders closed, that part is madness.

you can of course open the borders AND significantly reduce immigration at the same time.

I agree. You can have open borders.. but the pre Covid level of immigration has to stop. Aside from anything else, wages have to stop been driven to rock bottom, and we have to stop importing other countries problems.

WingNut60 4th Jul 2021 07:24


Originally Posted by PoppaJo (Post 11072818)
Didnít McGowan also want his border closed permanently to try and keep the meth out?

No. He wanted to keep the state border police inspection posts to scrutinise for narcotics traffic. Not quite the same as closing the border.

Just for the record, WA has had those border inspection posts for at least 30 years (Eucla and Kununarra).
Police conduct both random and targeted inspections of cars crossing the border for firearms, etc.
And quarantine check cars for prohibited movement of agricultural products.

I have seen exactly the same in the U.S.
The inspection post on the MonIda border comes to mind.

WingNut60 4th Jul 2021 07:28


Originally Posted by SOPS (Post 11072857)
I agree. You can have open borders.. but the pre Covid level of immigration has to stop. Aside from anything else, wages have to stop been driven to rock bottom, and we have to stop importing other countries problems.

Yep. Big business wants cheap labour. All mention of "skilled labour" is horse feathers.
Just ask Gina Hancock.

If they want skilled labour they should be recruiting in Europe and South America, not just S-E Asia.
Or they could try spending a couple of dollars on training domestic employees.

Potsie Weber 4th Jul 2021 11:52


Originally Posted by WingNut60 (Post 11072859)
No. He wanted to keep the state border police inspection posts to scrutinise for narcotics traffic. Not quite the same as closing the border.

Just for the record, WA has had those border inspection posts for at least 30 years (Eucla and Kununarra).
Police conduct both random and targeted inspections of cars crossing the border for firearms, etc.
And quarantine check cars for prohibited movement of agricultural products.

I have seen exactly the same in the U.S.
The inspection post on the MonIda border comes to mind.

No. What he and Dawson wanted to do was keep the controlled border and the g2g pass post pandemic. That means you would have to apply to enter the state and supply a range of personal details. He back peddled pretty quick when people questioned his police state mentality. WA police have used the g2g to track criminals as well as accessing the COVID check-in app for criminal investigations. Such actions are an appalling abuse of police powers into health and undermines the success of the check-in app which should be solely for public health.

WingNut60 4th Jul 2021 14:21


Originally Posted by Potsie Weber (Post 11073009)
No. What he and Dawson wanted to do was keep the controlled border and the g2g pass post pandemic. That means you would have to apply to enter the state and supply a range of personal details. He back peddled pretty quick when people questioned his police state mentality. WA police have used the g2g to track criminals as well as accessing the COVID check-in app for criminal investigations. Such actions are an appalling abuse of police powers into health and undermines the success of the check-in app which should be solely for public health.

People have asserted that as being his avowed aim however I have seen nothing that shows that to be the case.
I saw a very brief clip on the news where he responded briefly about the possible benefit of ongoing border controls however he did not say anything specific in that interview.
It was later reported as ".......Mr McGowan would not rule out extending the G2G application system beyond the pandemic, arguing it had been effective in keeping not just COVID-19 out, but also illicit drugs such as methamphetamine......."
My recollection is that it was a very short, almost throw-away reply to a leading question.
I'm calling "fake news" on that one.

Perhaps he made those assertions in a different interview in which case I'd be interested to see the footage.

As for the mis-use of the Covid check-in app, I agree.
A terrible abuse of trust for which all responsible should be held to account.
I am further interested to know whatever happened to the promise to permanently delete records after 28 days.
Records older than 28 days can be of no further use for legitimate contact tracing.
So, are they being deleted?



Chronic Snoozer 5th Jul 2021 01:43


Originally Posted by WingNut60 (Post 11073070)
People have asserted that as being his avowed aim however I have seen nothing that shows that to be the case.
I saw a very brief clip on the news where he responded briefly about the possible benefit of ongoing border controls however he did not say anything specific in that interview.
It was later reported as ".......Mr McGowan would not rule out extending the G2G application system beyond the pandemic, arguing it had been effective in keeping not just COVID-19 out, but also illicit drugs such as methamphetamine......."
My recollection is that it was a very short, almost throw-away reply to a leading question.
I'm calling "fake news" on that one.

Perhaps he made those assertions in a different interview in which case I'd be interested to see the footage.

As for the mis-use of the Covid check-in app, I agree.
A terrible abuse of trust for which all responsible should be held to account.
I am further interested to know whatever happened to the promise to permanently delete records after 28 days.
Records older than 28 days can be of no further use for legitimate contact tracing.
So, are they being deleted?

Here you go. McGowan backflip. Make of the reporting what you will.


Asked specifically whether incoming travellers would need to continue using the G2G pass, the premier said he couldnít predict exactly what restrictions might remain.
It wasnít what he said, itís what he didnít say. Journos will read into things far more than politicians intend. Alternatively, itís possible politicians intend for things to be interpreted in a particular way.


But hours later, Mr McGowan backtracked, confirming the G2G pass system would ďobviouslyĒ be scrapped when the pandemic ended.
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/bre...93fb0f0bd85acb

If he wasnít even contemplating it why not provide a direct ĎNOí when asked if the G2G pass would continue post pandemic? McGowan was most likely just thinking out loud.

WingNut60 5th Jul 2021 03:21


Originally Posted by Chronic Snoozer (Post 11073314)
.................It wasnít what he said, itís what he didnít say. Journos will read into things far more than politicians intend. .................

Exactly!

I had already seen that article; and others.
I also saw the original interview.
A refusal to confirm is not a confirmation of intention.

He was dumb not to come straight out and say what he knew all along - that he would never be able to carry that one off, even if he wanted to.
And unlike the journos, I didn't see anything in his response that suggested that he had any such intention in the first place.

Chris Dawson? Maybe.
He's a copper and they've never been squeamish about trampling on civil rights.

Paragraph377 5th Jul 2021 05:40


Originally Posted by Lead Balloon (Post 11072811)
Still, all of the economic numbers are great. Record house prices, low unemployment, GDP and inflation numbers looking good. Perhaps what Australia should keep doing indefinitely, and irrespective of Covid 19, is randomly locking down cities, randomly shutting down interstate and international borders and going the odd trillion or so into further debt). What could possibly go wrong?

I couldn’t agree more! House prices are booming so that must be good, right? Couldn’t be a bubble. Nah. And inflation, it’s rising in Australia, Europe and the USA so that’s a good thing, right? And yes, an extra trillion dollars in debt, who cares! Just print some more money, right? Of course. So yes, closing borders and locking down countries for everyone (except the wealthy, famous and of course politicians) is a great thing. Can we have some more please sir? I mean, flu cases are at an all time low so keep the place under lock and key I say.


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