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-   -   All borders to reopen. (https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/632861-all-borders-reopen.html)

Clare Prop 3rd Jul 2021 06:47


Originally Posted by Qwark (Post 11072361)
Did you even read the statistics? 45% of arrivals are from New Zealand. I seem to remember Australia has a travel bubble established so maybe they are not using the quarantine system.

So how about we cut out the NZ arrivals and keep the returning aussies at the existing level. That is almost a 50% reduction. Same stats can be used for both sides of an argument. Our politicians are a disgrace in this country!

Kiwis don't take up quarantine spaces.

Chronic Snoozer 3rd Jul 2021 07:07


Originally Posted by Lead Balloon (Post 11072427)
If the policemen who arrested 'Sister Mary Jane Rainforest I Don't Wear Masks' from Bowral all contracted the Delta strain of Covid 19, would we all be aghast and wondering how that could be possibly happen?

Why are so many things done in such a half-arsed way in this country?

I don't really blame the individual policemen. I blame their leadership. Sending them in, without proper PPE, to arrest someone for not wearing a mask mandated for the purposes of reducing the spread of a highly infectious strain of Covid 19 is like sending them without weapons to a reported armed hold-up.

Australia - the half-arsed country. Apt.

Keg 3rd Jul 2021 07:31


Originally Posted by Lead Balloon (Post 11072403)
The point of arresting the woman was, surely, that she may be a carrier of Covid 19 and spreading it to patrons by not wearing a mask, in breach of the law? What, then, is the point of a policeman getting up close and personal with the women, without proper PPE?

Ever crossed your mind that he was wearing it correctly but after the female started resisting arrest that the PPE then slipped out of place?

I don’t envy the coppers in this situation and given they’d already spent more than an hour trying to reason with them I reckon they showed remarkable restraint. Yes, some coppers have been WAY over the top (I’m looking at you Victoria and WA in particular) but to suggest the copper in this specific circumstance was doing the wrong thing is a bit tough.

Lead Balloon 3rd Jul 2021 07:42

That was the first thing I thought of, Keg.

And that is the first risk that anyone, and his or her supervisor, doing a proper risk assessment of the task should have thought of, too.

That's why I keep using the word "proper" in front of PPE. In this case, a paper mask that slips off at the first wiggle of a nose and can't be repositioned because both the officer's hands are occupied arresting someone is not "proper" PPE.


mattyj 3rd Jul 2021 09:51

Every copper from every totalitarian nightmare government who was beating someone who was standing up for their civil liberties was “only doing their job”

..that defence didn’t work at Nuremberg..eventually when the facts come out there should be some people made a public example of.

Lead Balloon 3rd Jul 2021 10:05

I don't think we need to go quite to that extreme to foresee that most people who have a fundamental objection to wearing facemasks - whether the objection is based on religion, essential oils, crystals, voices in their head or a belief that Covid-19 is a means by which to implement some form of world government - is going to resist and ignore requests from the constabulary to wear a facemask.

After that, it's not that hard to foresee that the constabulary are either going to have to arrest or retreat. Being appropriately prepared for an arrest seems like a pretty obvious planning step, including the use of proper PPE, for the constabulary in the circumstances.

601 3rd Jul 2021 13:27


I don't think we need to go quite to that extreme to foresee that most people who have a fundamental objection to wearing facemasks - whether the objection is based on religion, essential oils, crystals, voices in their head or a belief that Covid-19 is a means by which to implement some form of world government - is going to resist and ignore requests from the constabulary to wear a facemask.

After that, it's not that hard to foresee that the constabulary are either going to have to arrest or retreat. Being appropriately prepared for an arrest seems like a pretty obvious planning step, including the use of proper PPE, for the constabulary in the circumstances.
So next time I become SLF, I shall expect the cabin crew to be in full PPE.

WingNut60 3rd Jul 2021 13:28


Originally Posted by Keg (Post 11072441)
...................Yes, some coppers have been WAY over the top (I’m looking at you Victoria and WA in particular) ..................

Really? Which particular incident are you referring to in W.A.?

Keg 3rd Jul 2021 14:27

Admittedly most were in Victoria. Use of the riot squad in Victoria markets and in other places around Melbourne. Deciding that teaching your daughter to drive a car isn’t ‘educational purposes’ and fining them for being more than 5km from home. Arresting a pregnant woman (and cuffing her) in her own home for a facebook post. Telling another pregnant woman she couldn’t sit down to rest on a park bench when out for a walk. Telling a law professor with cerebral palsy to ‘move on’ when she was resting during a walk with her 70 year old mum.

Fining people who are running on their own but don’t happen to be wearing a mask in WA? WA police accessing contact tracing information despite the government saying they wouldn’t? There were other similar examples to do with the whole exercise thing either for mask wearing, spending too long out of home or too far away from home.

dr dre 3rd Jul 2021 15:55


Originally Posted by Keg (Post 11072611)
Arresting a pregnant woman (and cuffing her) in her own home for a facebook post.

C’mon that wasn’t just for a mere “Facebook post”, she (allegedly, it’s still in the courts) was trying to organise a “freedom rally” and promote it on social media, a mass gathering at the peak of that outbreak in which every man, woman, child and dog in Victoria knew was clearly illegal.

I watched the video of the arrest, the arresting police were gentle, calm, didn’t do anything that would have put her or her child at risk.

But being pregnant is never an excuse to break the law. Seeing she (allegedly) chose to break the law whilst pregnant I’d be questioning her fitness to be a parent.

dr dre 3rd Jul 2021 17:13


Originally Posted by Keg (Post 11072611)

Fining people who are running on their own but don’t happen to be wearing a mask in WA?......There were other similar examples to do with the whole exercise thing either for mask wearing, spending too long out of home or too far away from home.

Nope, there’s a mask exemption for performing vigorous exercise so you wouldn’t be fined for running without one.

The only stories of fines (and there haven’t been many) issued in WA for not wearing masks have been those who explicitly refused to do so when requested by police.

Maybe NSW needs to get a bit more serious with their mask wearing:

Hundreds seen flouting Sydney lockdown rules, with July 9 lift under threat



aviation_enthus 3rd Jul 2021 18:01


Originally Posted by dr dre (Post 11072643)
C’mon that wasn’t just for a mere “Facebook post”, she (allegedly, it’s still in the courts) was trying to organise a “freedom rally” and promote it on social media, a mass gathering at the peak of that outbreak in which every man, woman, child and dog in Victoria knew was clearly illegal.
.

I love reading these sorts of posts, it’s an interesting argument on whether any sort of protest should even be illegal to start with.

I’m going to play devils advocate.

Protesting against the government should never be illegal. Doesn’t matter what level of public health “risk” is justified to classify them illegal, removing the right to protest limits the function of our democracy. You only have to look at the double standards applied in Victoria to see the risks in this approach:

- BLM protest were ok
- another protest was also allowed (the subject suited the government) can’t remember what it was about.

- Any “freedom/anti lockdown” protests were met with a VERY heavy police response in return.

My main point with this is, once we start deciding “certain types” of protest are illegal, it’s a very slippery slope. Who is the ultimate arbiter of “what’s ok”, the government? Which is the very subject most people chose to protest about. Massive conflict of interest!

Combine this with the various powers available under the Public Health Orders and it can very quickly be open to abuse.

- right of entry to your home without a warrant
- right of arrest under whatever “order” the CMO creates (not parliament)
- right to confiscate property under similar “orders”
- closure of various sectors of business (with almost nil rights of appeal)
- just to name a few

I’m not talking “Nazis” or whatever conspiracy theory you might think I’m alluding to. It’s all about having good governance in our country, I personally don’t believe that includes some of the heavy handed actions we’ve seen in the last 18 months.

To add, I think the lack of a “rights charter” or something similar means in Australia we are at huge risk of laws being crafted by various levels of government that are detrimental to whatever level of “freedom” you support. The point with this is, until a law is tested in court in Australia and found illegal/detrimental, we are subject to whatever the government of the day creates. I believe we need some sort of rights charter to measure new laws (and old) against.

*for the record the only state with anything approaching a rights charter is Victoria. Conveniently they have made all reports secret since the pandemic started. Plus as far as I’m aware, we are the ONLY Western democracy without a Bill/Charter of Human rights.

mattyj 3rd Jul 2021 21:25

That’s exactly correct, organising a protest should be an activity protected by a bill of rights (if we had one worth the paper it’s written on)..you may tut tut, or shake your head..but there are NO exceptions for taking away a free persons civil liberties. Once this is all over that policeman needs to be jailed for a very long time..he is an enemy of the people.

plus have you all not heard the latest “science”?
along with many other strategies adopted last year, outdoor masking has been categorically denounced as pointless and worthless by the CDC

science as a concept has crapped all over itself though..there’s decades of work needed now to get any credibility back.


Capn Rex Havoc 3rd Jul 2021 23:09

I have been enjoying your commentary mattyj. Good to have balance.

In my view - vaccinate vaccinate vaccinate - that's the only way forward.

This ABC report from the US seems to show that.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-...pats/100261924

Green.Dot 3rd Jul 2021 23:29

I probably shouldn’t feed a troll, but I am curious…

Mattyj has your career/earnings been effected negatively by COVID? If the answer is no, don’t bother replying.

If yes how do you propose things will improve for YOU without mass vaccination? What’s YOUR plan B?

This is more than political/medical beliefs, it’s about moving forward.

Icarus2001 3rd Jul 2021 23:38


plus have you all not heard the latest “science”?
along with many other strategies adopted last year, outdoor masking has been categorically denounced as pointless and worthless by the CDC
Do you have a link or reference for this news?

dr dre 3rd Jul 2021 23:54


Originally Posted by mattyj (Post 1107272)
plus have you all not heard the latest “science”?
along with many other strategies adopted last year, outdoor masking has been categorically denounced as pointless and worthless by the CDC

No, they’ve revised their guidelines because of the higher level of vaccination in the US and subsequent decrease in risk. They still recommend mask wearing for the unvaccinated in crowded outdoor settings and in close contact with other unvaccinated in high Covid spread areas, even in summer.


science as a concept has crapped all over itself though..there’s decades of work needed now to get any credibility back.
On the contrary the use of science to combat this pandemic, especially the use of science to quickly create effective vaccines, is one the greatest achievements of humanity in years and scientists deserve to be placed far higher up the totem pole of who is honoured in our society. How many Australians would recognise our last Nobel Prize Winner versus some C grade “celebrity” spouting nonsense like Pete Evans I wonder?

The credibility of those who spend their days trolling on the internet trying to attack the “so called experts” without any evidence themselves? Well they never had any credibility to begin with.....

minigundiplomat 4th Jul 2021 00:40


Originally Posted by dr dre (Post 11072756)
No, they’ve revised their guidelines because of the higher level of vaccination in the US and subsequent decrease in risk. They still recommend mask wearing for the unvaccinated in crowded outdoor settings and in close contact with other unvaccinated in high Covid spread areas, even in summer.



On the contrary the use of science to combat this pandemic, especially the use of science to quickly create effective vaccines, is one the greatest achievements of humanity in years and scientists deserve to be placed far higher up the totem pole of who is honoured in our society. How many Australians would recognise our last Nobel Prize Winner versus some C grade “celebrity” spouting nonsense like Pete Evans I wonder?

The credibility of those who spend their days trolling on the internet trying to attack the “so called experts” without any evidence themselves? Well they never had any credibility to begin with.....

Right back in early 2020 those so called experts told us the science spoke to them and told them we weren’t to wear masks. Don’t p1ss in my pocket and tell me it’s raining, scientists and doctors have been winging as much of this pandemic as they have been guided by science. And I still want guarantees that decision making that affects our civil liberties won’t be based solely on Professor Neil Ferguson’s shonky modelling in the future.



Green.Dot 4th Jul 2021 00:57


Originally Posted by minigundiplomat (Post 11072765)
Right back in early 2020 those so called experts told us the science spoke to them and told them we weren’t to wear masks. Don’t p1ss in my pocket and tell me it’s raining, scientists and doctors have been winging as much of this pandemic as they have been guided by science. And I still want guarantees that decision making that affects our civil liberties won’t be based solely on Professor Neil Ferguson’s shonky modelling in the future.

Seriously is it that f*cking hard to wear a mask for a couple weeks?!

Civil liberties- some of us are precious!

As for changing guidance, have you ever decided to make a change to a previous decision you made on the flight deck due to change in circumstance?

dr dre 4th Jul 2021 01:17


Originally Posted by Green.Dot (Post 11072767)

As for changing guidance, have you ever decided to make a change to a previous decision you made on the flight deck due to change in circumstance?

Exactly. Here’s a great article on why the recommendations for mask wearing have changed throughout the course of the pandemic.

How Masks Went From Don’t-Wear to Must-Have

Basically more knowledge was gained over the first few months about the nature of transmission of the virus. There were also concerns at the start the panic buying of the existing low stocks of PPE would deny supply to medical workers and vulnerable people.

Thats what science is, the ability to change understanding based on observation of evidence.


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