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-   -   All borders to reopen. (https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/632861-all-borders-reopen.html)

601 10th Feb 2021 13:08


could have happened in any other state undertaking hotel floor Q
If you test positive while in HQ in Qld, you are transported to a Covid ward at a hospital. You do not stay in HQ.

compressor stall 10th Feb 2021 13:13


Originally Posted by 601 (Post 10987778)
If you test positive while in HQ in Qld, you are transported to a Covid ward at a hospital. You do not stay in HQ.

Not in WA you don't. And you can also develop symptoms between the test a couple of days in and the ~10 day test.


Originally Posted by currawong (Post 10987774)
Virus is airborne; it gets around fine with or without help...

Yes, clearly evidenced elsewhere. But likely the nebuliser helped it spread significantly.

WingNut60 10th Feb 2021 13:15


Originally Posted by 601 (Post 10987778)
If you test positive while in HQ in Qld, you are transported to a Covid ward at a hospital. You do not stay in HQ.

Seems eminently sensible.

McLimit 10th Feb 2021 14:15


The (Christmas) Northern Beaches outbreak, source remains undetermined.
As has been pointed out so many times, a targeted lock down of a couple of LGA's NOT a whole city and NOT for a single case.

Sunfish 10th Feb 2021 18:38

One of the Holiday Inn infected is in ICU and not doing well - 38 years old.

SHVC 10th Feb 2021 19:32


Originally Posted by Sunfish (Post 10987986)
One of the Holiday Inn infected is in ICU and not doing well - 38 years old.

This is the same person that owned the nebuliser, who would already have medical issues may asthma something unknown to the public. Nothing too see here cant blame every ICU case on C-19

lc_461 10th Feb 2021 19:35


Originally Posted by compressor stall (Post 10987750)
Re the MEL Holiday Inn outbreak. To be fair, the same nebuliser driven outbreak (assuming that's what happened) could have happened in any other state undertaking hotel floor Q ( NT, not looking at you :) ). Personal baggage from your flight is certainly not searched in WA. Had he sick man arrived into Perth with his nebuliser, the same infection would have happened to a similar number of people and they may have been worse off with (until last week) no community mask wearing and limited testing.

SOPS - if you read the fine print of most the states, such exemptions have always been in the fine print. I'm not as intricately familiar with SA's as I have been with every other state, but I'd be surprised if it was different.


In the early days of the pandemic nebulisers were banned for use in many hospitals, as were 'aerosol generating procedures'. I doubt in this case it could have been avoided. Someone got sick, maybe they already had respiratory issues and had their own nebuliser, which they used, leading to this spread in a place not designed to contain aerosols.

If however, the scenario was that the patient tested positive, became unwell and then was GIVEN this treatment by authorities... then that is a massive clusterf*ck on behalf of the VIC Health team/ whoever manages HQ at the moment, seemingly against their own hospital procedures.

WingNut60 10th Feb 2021 20:20


Originally Posted by McLimit (Post 10987832)
As has been pointed out so many times, a targeted lock down of a couple of LGA's NOT a whole city and NOT for a single case.

So I'll ask again, if not for a single case then what is the correct number?
Please cite your expert reference for the correct number.

"More than one" is a meaningless but nefarious answer.

KRviator 10th Feb 2021 21:20

Well, considering the WA CHO testified in court that their health system can successfully manage 500 new cases per day the answer is obviously not "1". That would utilise 650 hospital and 124 ICU beds, but would remain within the capability of the WA health system. That being the case, I would say anything more than 500 new cases per day, based on a population of 2.66 million should be the trigger to require a lockdown, because anything less than 500 can be managed by the (existing) health system. Your reference is Palmer v Western Australia (No 4) [2020] FCA 1221 [86].

If you want to extrapolate that to other states, on the assumption all health systems have the same capacity, that is 1,200 cases a day for Mexico and 1,500 for NSW. And that's per day remember....

StudentInDebt 10th Feb 2021 21:43


That would utilise 650 hospital and 124 ICU beds, but would remain within the capability of the WA health system.
given the WA health system only has 111 ICU beds Iím not sure this would allow the system to carry on in itsí usual form. The WA health COVID response plan suggests that ward closures and the use of private hospital capacity would be required to ramp up the ICU capacity and hospitals have plans to implement COVID/Non-COVID areas. This means routine operations and treatment may have to be cut back, I presume thatís what he meant by

substantially increase the burden upon the health system.
.
Pretty sure most WA residents would rather see their Aunty Doris have a hip replacement than 500 new cases per day.

Potsie Weber 10th Feb 2021 22:04


Originally Posted by currawong (Post 10987755)
The (Christmas) Northern Beaches outbreak, source remains undetermined.

"Also, you lot from other States wonder why NSW shakes their heads at you lot."

Indeed.

:hmm:

undetermined or covered up?

WingNut60 10th Feb 2021 22:32


Originally Posted by KRviator (Post 10988087)
...........I would say anything more than 500 new cases per day, based on a population of 2.66 million should be the trigger to require a lockdown, because anything less than 500 can be managed by the (existing) health system. ........

You forgot to mention the other half of the quoted sentence, the bit that mentions 70 deaths.
But then, that'd be OK, wouldn't it?

While you, Clive and Beryl may agree, apparently the Federal Court of Australia did not.

KRviator 10th Feb 2021 23:35


Originally Posted by WingNut60 (Post 10988133)
You forgot to mention the other half of the quoted sentence, the bit that mentions 70 deaths.

I didn't forget, nor intentionally omit it. You asked for a specific number of cases, I gave what I consider to be a reasonable number of cases based on testimony from a state CHO - incidentally the same one who also champions "28 days COVID free" to allow his state border to reopen to the rest of the country, and to hell with the socio-economic cost of that 28-day delay.

Originally Posted by WingNut60
But then, that'd be OK, wouldn't it?

To me, YES, it would! I make no secret of that fact, nor apologies for it. But in saying that, I am happy to accept personal responsibility for my health, and tolerate minor inconveniences (masks/social distancing/hand sanitiser on entry, for eg) to allow life to continue as normally as possible, as it does in NSW (who has kept borders open almost entirely throughout...). By the same token, I don't smoke so, personally, I don't consider the 8,000-odd deaths from preventable lung cancer a year as being "OK". But hey, the rest of Australia seems to think that killing 8,000 citizens a year by the sales of tobacco products is perfectly fine! So who's right?

My point is, if the Government has had a financial model for acceptable risk (including death) v reward for decades, and they threw it out the window for COVID. However, the Government - of all persuasions - is happy to rake in the billions of dollars from tobacco excise, despite knowing it is one of the leading causes of preventable deaths in Australia.

You can't have it both ways.

StudentInDebt 11th Feb 2021 01:17


I didn't forget, nor intentionally omit it. You asked for a specific number of cases, I gave what Iconsider to be a reasonable number of cases based on testimony from a state CHO
You gave based on the summing up of his testimony by the court, the full paragraph ends

These numbers would remain within the capacity of the Western Australian health system to manage, but would substantially increase the burden upon the health system.

KRviator 11th Feb 2021 01:23

Yes I did, and yes it does.

What is your point?

jrfsp 11th Feb 2021 01:42

The issue with having active covid cases, regardless of borders, is that it kills demand. People are generally not willing to take the risk - especially so for corporate travel. Without corporate travel the golden triangle - and many other routes would be half, if not less, their standard capacity - and we can forget about yield

StudentInDebt 11th Feb 2021 01:50


Originally Posted by KRviator (Post 10988173)
Yes I did, and yes it does.

What is your point?

That your figure of 500 new cases per day should not be used as a threshold for a lockdown as youíve taken it in isolation from the rest of the summation. There would be a significant impact on the provision of WAís health services well before that figure is reached.

dr dre 11th Feb 2021 01:54


Originally Posted by jrfsp (Post 10988179)
The issue with having active covid cases, regardless of borders, is that it kills demand. People are generally not willing to take the risk - especially so for corporate travel. Without corporate travel the golden triangle - and many other routes would be half, if not less, their standard capacity - and we can forget about yield

Yep. Air travel has been decimated in nations where borders have remained open too, so I donít know why people here think open borders would suddenly mean a return to normality. I remember in March before any borders were closed passenger numbers were plummeting, the free market was choosing not to travel whilst this pandemic is active.

This slowdown of aviation is because of a worldwide health crisis and itíll be over when the health crisis is no longer an issue, not borders.

Sunfish 11th Feb 2021 03:28

Lets get one thing straight...

Since the prohibition on cruise ships and an isolated case or two on cargo ships, there is only one other way that the country is now subjected to receiving infected individuals - international air travel.

That firstly means that bleating by international pilots and airlines is just that - self interested crap. The Federal Government and the states have already been overly generous, in my opinion, in permitting any international arrivals of passengers at all.

Given that generosity, it is even worse when we hear International pilots carping about lockdown conditions, etc., when the need for such measures is directly caused by their employers activities.

It should also be of interest to domestic RPT pilots because without the constant stream of infected individuals from overseas we would have beaten this virus by now and could have reopened the whole domestic RPT and tourism market

My suggestion is that there should be only two quarantine locations Christmas and Manus Islands. No one gets to land here unless they are tested Covid free for fourteen days.

currawong 11th Feb 2021 03:32


Originally Posted by KRviator (Post 10988087)
Well, considering the WA CHO testified in court that their health system can successfully manage 500 new cases per day the answer is obviously not "1". That would utilise 650 hospital and 124 ICU beds, but would remain within the capability of the WA health system. That being the case, I would say anything more than 500 new cases per day, based on a population of 2.66 million should be the trigger to require a lockdown, because anything less than 500 can be managed by the (existing) health system. Your reference is Palmer v Western Australia (No 4) [2020] FCA 1221 [86].

If you want to extrapolate that to other states, on the assumption all health systems have the same capacity, that is 1,200 cases a day for Mexico and 1,500 for NSW. And that's per day remember....

"Can manage", but why would you want to?

As long as this thing is allowed to replicate, like in Europe it can and will mutate (remember not that long ago viewed as unlikely) and possibly come up with something that can defeat our efforts at vaccination.

Then its back to square one.

I don't want to go all the way back to square one. Do you?


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